LGBT Rant

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, that's a lot to go into. You're basically asking me to explain my whole experience of self as a trans man.

Shrugs. I was thinking Deejee could use some foundation. I asked you years ago; so, you good.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Years

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Shrugs. I was thinking Deejee could use some foundation. I asked you years ago; so, you good.

Probably, but I don't know if she's open to listening, from past experience. We'll see.

 

[Deeje]

If science tells us we are just animals, than you and I would be in the same boat as those younger than us. Age helps with sorting feelings out; but, it doesnt make us less animals than our younger peers.

We just hope that maturity will temper decisions. Older ones will hopefully allow a deeper contemplation of the consequences to foresee how their decisions will turn out in the long term.

Identifying as gay and being gay (straight men with straight men for example) are two totally different things. Catholic priests cant identify as gay; and, that does not mean some arnt. It just means they put god over marriage. But THAT is a different topic. Just raising a point.

With the current legal battles over child sex abuse endemic in the Catholic church and its institutions, it seems to me that the church, by not imposing the moral sanctions that the Bible promotes, gave pedophiles an excuse to access children placed in their care, and it also gave license to gay males gaining access to other like minded men....not attracted to the priesthood for any noble reason, but to satisfy their own lust under the protection of a blind institution in denial.

The latter half, thats good you understand that at the least. As for talking about immoral issues, usually we would do that in regards to behavior. But if you are telling them they are wrong because of their hormons that is totally different and not immoral. I dont know how I would address my childs attractions if I were christian. However, I know I wouldnt deny them love. They would have to follow who I follow and if god tells them they found love where I disagree, who am I to judge their relationship with god?

From our perspective, God's moral laws are not negotiable. We cannot rewrite scripture to suit ourselves. If we have imparted those laws to our children, then they have the right to decline them as adults. We don't stop loving them, but if their lifestyle is offensive to God, then it is also offensive to us. They cannot expect that we will condone it.....so choices have to be made. With Christianity conflicts are sometimes inevitable. (Matthew 10:34-36)

I can give them guidence and strict rules until they are out the house. One can adult, god does what wants. You can blame it on his misconception of gods word. It highly depends on the person, really. Some people dont see attraction as important insofar to challenge their parents over behavior. They do want to be loved and told they are not broken just because they react to people with the same parts.

Those who are gender dysphoric are not "broken", but they do have a major flaw in their genetic coding. Those are flaws we expect to be fixed in the new world. (which is not heaven BTW) They will become what God intended them to be, and will be completely happy with their transformation....whatever it ends up being.

Reacting to people in any sexual way is dictated by hormones. I know people in my small community who are in a same sex relationship but neither of them identify as gay. Both are females but one identifies as male and genetic testing has confirmed that he is a hormonally a male in a female body. He dresses as male and attracted a perfectly heterosexual woman. These are complications that can arise. Regardless of these strange liaisons, God's law applies.

I think its more christian parents are telling their children they are sinners long before that child does anything. Its one thing to teach a child good sex morals. Its another to degrade that childs attractions because you feel his attraction will overrule his responsibility to his parents and faith.

I agree. It is a delicate subject and should be handled compassionately, and with understanding. A child's sexual identity is not sinful until sin is actually committed.

A straight persons orientation and someone with a disability are two totally different things. A straight person isnt disabiled anymore than someone with blondhair and blue eyes. Not a good comparison.

This is better: People should not engage in same-sex relationships.

Not gay. Not straight. People.

If it is about the action and not orientation, you have to knock off the LGBTQ and say people.

LGBQT is not in a JW's vocabulary. We see everyone as a person. We don't have LGBQT identification in our ranks.....we just have human beings who are accountable to God for their choice of behavior, not because of their orientation or anything else that they cannot help. Everyone who is in control of their behavior, has choices about their actions. We are conscious of consequences and can employ our imagination to contemplate where our actions may lead us.

Yes. That makes sense. My issue is judging and lack of proper information. It makes me sad to see things you say dont apply to a lot of people who have these experiences before they do anything.

There is a lot of misinformation and prejudice attached to old attitudes. Every individual is seen by God as a person with individual choices and actions.

Homosexuality, as we know nowadays, is an attraction just as heterosexuality.

In the bible, does it mention that gay people have same-sex sex, or just people in general?

As I mentioned, the Bible is specific about sexual behavior and is specific about homosexual sex.....calling it a perversion. Sex is meant to produce children and same sex couples cannot produce children naturally. They cannot have "natural" sex as the Creator intended.

Lots of people are attracted to people they will never have a relationship with.....its a fact of life.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We just hope that maturity will temper decisions. Older ones will hopefully allow a deeper contemplation of the consequences to foresee how their decisions will turn out in the long term

True. The flip side is older people apply info they know from their generation to now. Its kind of like saying its a sin to use cell phones because god wants us to use landlines and pay phones. While the opinions are good, but the relationship between why one is better than the other is illogical. Good or bad aside.

With the current legal battles over child sex abuse endemic in the Catholic church and its institutions, it seems to me that the church, by not imposing the moral sanctions that the Bible promotes, gave pedophiles an excuse to access children placed in their care, and it also gave license to gay males gaining access to other like minded men....not attracted to the priesthood for any noble reason, but to satisfy their own lust under the protection of a blind institution in denial.

I only wanted to make a point that identifying as gay is not the same as the behavior. Straight men have sex with other men all the time. Gay men have sex with women all the time. That doesnt change their identity just who they chose to sleep with.

From our perspective, God's moral laws are not negotiable. We cannot rewrite scripture to suit ourselves. If we have imparted those laws to our children, then they have the right to decline them as adults. We don't stop loving them, but if their lifestyle is offensive to God, then it is also offensive to us. They cannot expect that we will condone it.....so choices have to be made. With Christianity conflicts are sometimes inevitable. (Matthew 10:34-36)

I didnt mention lifestyle. You are mixing attraction, orientation, love, and behavior.

Those who are gender dysphoric are not "broken", but they do have a major flaw in their genetic coding. Those are flaws we expect to be fixed in the new world. (which is not heaven BTW) They will become what God intended them to be, and will be completely happy with their transformation....whatever it ends up being.

I do see how it is an issue for religious folks. I can see why its physiologically and psychologically harmful for transgender. Though, I dont see it as immoral or against gods plans.

Remember. Actions. How one is born is not the same as the behavior they adopt.

Reacting to people in any sexual way is dictated by hormones. I know people in my small community who are in a same sex relationship but neither of them identify as gay. Both are females but one identifies as male and genetic testing has confirmed that he is a hormonally a male in a female body. He dresses as male and attracted a perfectly heterosexual woman. These are complications that can arise. Regardless of these strange liaisons, God's law applies.

Peoples attractions are dictated by uor hormones. Straight men have sex with men. What makes them straight is their hormones not their behavior.

Yes. My best friend is christian, has two beautiful children by her seregate donor and friend, got out of a married relationship with a female, and dating the woman of her dreams. While she may not be a true christian in your eyes, I dont see it that way.

Actually, my whole life I never considered being with a guy. My environment didnt promote that, of course. My parents didnt teach it. I was in the hospital not part of a fad; dont even live near fads. So, I wouldnt know how to see my friend as sining in her heart. I dont know how she justifies her actions with her relationship with god:

but my point is you are mixing behaviors with orientation. Yes, to you and many christians she sin. But she doesnt make up the majority with whom you havent addressed.

The rest, I cant correct everything you said. I can say, though, whether born that way or disfigured genes, we are talking abuot peoples behaviors.

I agree. It is a delicate subject and should be handled compassionately, and with understanding. A child's sexual identity is not sinful until sin is actually committed.

Yeah. The best thing is dont assume they are gay because of sexual behavior. Children experiment etc. Just teach them your faith in light of good sex however you define it. If their relationship with god tells them to go opposite of what you say, in the words of the fundamentalist, let them answer to god. Everyone hears god differently.

Im speaking of orientation and genetics not behaviors and lifestyles.

LGBQT is not in a JW's vocabulary. We see everyone as a person. We don't have LGBQT identification in our ranks.....we just have human beings who are accountable to God for their choice of behavior, not because of their orientation or anything else that they cannot help. Everyone who is in control of their behavior, has choices about their actions. We are conscious of consequences and can employ our imagination to contemplate where our actions may lead us.

That is why you shouldnt single gay people out. Just think of it as people sining with other people. Once you segregate people because of fads and colors, thats whats immoral. Descrimination not your belief system.

There is a lot of misinformation and prejudice attached to old attitudes. Every individual is seen by God as a person with individual choices and actions.

True. A lot of what you say is miseducated. I think it could be an age thing. But, regardless, we both agree with the behavior part.

As I mentioned, the Bible is specific about sexual behavior and is specific about homosexual sex.....calling it a perversion. Sex is meant to produce children and same sex couples cannot produce children naturally. They cannot have "natural" sex as the Creator intended.

Lots of people are attracted to people they will never have a relationship with.....its a fact of life.

My question was: Is a persons attraction mentioned in the bible in relationship with their homosexual behavor?

 

[Trackdayguy]

Dejee

I see your i'll informed post has been deleted, shame as it did an excellent job of exposing the judgement and unbiblical position, most Christians hold regarding the Bible's position on sexuality.

As a christian I would assume that you are an open and transparent person, if that's the case which I trust it is, then I would encourage you to read chapter 4 in the attached link, "Sexual Lust" Also attached is a link to my own book. "Biblical Sexuality"

Sexual Lust
http://7cars.ca/documents/sex/Sexual Lust.pdf

"Biblical Sexuality"
http://7cars.ca/documents/book/sexuality.pdf

 

[Deeje]

My question was: Is a persons attraction mentioned in the bible in relationship with their homosexual behavor?

Homosexual sex is mentioned specifically as an unnatural 'obscenity' in the Bible. In order to engage in homosexual sex, one would imagine that the desire would have to come first. (James 1:14-15) The desire for sex is natural, but is strictly regulated by the one who created us if you are a Bible believer.
Orientation has little to do with it. If one is attracted to someone with whom they cannot scripturally form a sexual partnership, then best to throw a bucket of cold water over yourself.

Some, it appears like to ignore this counsel whilst still claiming to be Bible believers. But justification only works when we want to do something we know is wrong. People can justify whatever they like to themselves but never to God IMO. As you said....it's the behavior, not the orientation. We are responsible for our actions, which begin with our thoughts. Wrong thinking produces wrong actions.....this is why Jesus said that to look at a person lustfully, who is not your spouse, is like 'you have already committed adultery in your heart'. (Matthew 5:27-28) Its the reason why pornography is also wrong for Christians.

The apostle Paul wrote at Romans 1:24-27; 32....."Therefore, God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, so that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for the lie. . . . 26 That is why God gave them over to uncontrolled sexual passion, for their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error. . . . Although these know full well the righteous decree of God—that those practicing such things are deserving of death—they not only keep on doing them but also approve of those practicing them."

So from this we also see that not only engaging in these acts is wrong in God's eyes, but even consenting to others practicing them is making us complicit in them. Immoral conduct in scripture covers all illicit forms of sexual activity....same sex or not.

If you are a Christian, then God's laws apply....but if you have no belief in the God of the Bible, then why worry?...."eat drink and be merry"....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Edit
@Deeje

Oh. Just caught this. The best I can sum up the rant is that I have never thought about being with a guy. It wasnt and isnt in my reality all my life. I said it is sad that teens I talk to on this other site are being beatened, belittled, kicked out etc by who they are attracted to not what they do. In their teen years they have many feelings not black and white. What you call messed up genes, are a fluctuation all straight and gay people have as people. In other words, genes arent LGBTQ.

What you are talking about is immorality of sex. This thread is a rant of how I see myself in regards to being gay and how I see others belittled by christian views, beatened, and so forth for all sorts of reasons that I have not thankfully experienced. My family did not promote homosexuality. They never raised me in it. I never did anything as a teen that you would call homosexual.

But edit/not all people think like you. So, this is more how I feel about myself and empathy for others than challenge you on medical and psychological facts of homosexuality in contrast to the biblical immorality of it (aka they dont match).

Homosexual sex is mentioned specifically as an unnatural 'obscenity' in the Bible. In order to engage in homosexual sex, one would imagine that the desire would have to come first. (James 1:14-15) The desire for sex is natural, but is strictly regulated by the one who created us if you are a Bible believer.
Orientation has little to do with it. If one is attracted to someone with whom they cannot scripturally form a sexual partnership, then best to throw a bucket of cold water over yourself.

1. Yes. I know you believe homosexuality is a sin and homosexuals have messed up genes.

2. Straight people in the bible are homosexuals too; and, because of their desire, they have sex

3. I am speaking of orientation

4. Yes. Some straight and gay people cannot control their actions. They have a mental obsession that controls their actions; and, if it harms themselves and others, they seek medical treatment. Many straight people christians call gay for whatever reason used to get these treatments permaturely. Now we know straight people can have attraction without the mental desire to act on it.

My question is, is orientation (mental/physical/spiritual) attraction in the bible in relationship with a straight and gay persons homosexual behavior?

The apostle Paul wrote at Romans 1:24-27; 32....."Therefore, God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, so that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for the lie. . . . 26 That is why God gave them over to uncontrolled sexual passion, for their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error. . . . Although these know full well the righteous decree of God—that those practicing such things are deserving of death—they not only keep on doing them but also approve of those practicing them."

Please bold or use a darker color. The red throws me off; and, its counter productive. I cant read it.

1. Of course those attractions you call desires could be in a straight persons heart. Many straight people have gay relationships. Many gay people have straight relationships.

2. I read the bible on homosexuality, every single bit. The act is a sin. I am talking about one's mental and physical orientation.

Does the bible mention orientation (spiritual, mental, psysiological attraction) of people who engaged in homosexuality?

So from this we also see that not only engaging in these acts is wrong in God's eyes, but even consenting to others practicing them is making us complicit in them. Immoral conduct in scripture covers all illicit forms of sexual activity....same sex or not.

1. Yes. I agree.

Thats not my point.

If you are a Christian, then God's laws apply....but if you have no belief in the God of the Bible, then why worry?...."eat drink and be merry"....

1. This is a discussion question. Yes. Homosexual sex in the bible is a sin. We know in the 21st century genes have something to do with attraction not one's actions and desires. I dont know the medical knowledge they had back then.

Thats why I asked. Is a straight person's attractions in the bible in relationship to his homosexual actions?

 

[Trackdayguy]

If you are a Christian, then God's laws apply....but if you have no belief in the God of the Bible, then why worry?...."eat drink and be merry".... [/COLOR]

The problem my friend is you appear unclear on what God's laws are because you are not reading the scriptures in context. The BIble has to be read understanding that it was written for a specific people in a certain time frame. The instructions found on the pages of the Bible aren't relevant to everybody. Your incorrect assumption that the words are applicable to everybody in every time frame only indicates a literalist position, which we know to be a gentile heresy.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The problem my friend is you appear unclear on what God's laws are because you are not reading the scriptures in context and around the time frame in which it was written in. The BIble has to be read understanding that it was written for a specific people in a certain time frame.

The idea is the morals are eternal even though the facts are not.

 

[Trackdayguy]

The idea is the morals are eternal even though the facts are not.

I'd have to disagree. If they are why aren't we stoning teenagers who get pregnant. The Bible HAS to be read and understand in the context of culture - time & environment. Many of the laws of Moses are irrelevant today.

All these misguided comments do is reveal a fundamentalist & literalist perception of the BIble, which should be remembered is 66 different books that have been bound together. Big mistake in my opinion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'd have to disagree. If they are why aren't stoning teenagers who get pregnant.

It's more. They are wrong (moral) so we should see and treat then wrong (action).

If people's morals were for the betterment of society (love), we can disagree with the actions all we want (sin) but their opinion would be based on the facts.

In other words, if we change our morals to reflect the facts, our actions may change for the better of society without needing to agree with the actions in the process.

 

[Trackdayguy]

It's more. They are wrong (moral) so we should see and treat then wrong (action).
.

Please explain why they are wrong

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Please explain why they are wrong

Sorry. Didn't phrase that right.

For example, they say we are wrong (moral) so they treat us based on this moral.

Instead of saying we are wrong yet our actions will reflect the betterment of society than an illness needed to be cured.

Wishful thinking. But my OP was saying I'm grateful I'm not in direct physical opposition of anti-gay people's actions. And find it interesting that my whole reality growing up I never had being straight with a guy as part of it. I know others have the same experiences but how they are treated is sad than a person disagreeing and leaving it at that.

Biblically, the bible speaks of sexual immorality not sexual orientation. So, the connection between gay people and homosexuals in the bible is biblically incorrect. People are consequences because their abusers don't know the difference.

It's sad and I wish I could do more. It goes beyond arguing over someone else's theology.

 

[Trackdayguy]

Biblically, the bible speaks of sexual immorality not sexual orientation.

The Bible does speak on sexual issues, but in the context of TIME - CULTURE. The word sexual immorality is not mentioned in the Bible it is an incorrect translation.

A great book on the topic is:

Biblical Literalism ( A gentile Hersey)
By John Spong

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Bible does speak on sexual issues, but in the context of TIME - CULTURE. The word sexual immorality is not mentioned in the Bible it is an incorrect translation.

A great book on the topic is:

Biblical Literalism ( A gentile Hersey)
By John Spong

Yes....