Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

[savagewind]

No. I did not mean it insultingly. Did you not see the smiley emoticon at the end? To illustrate how difficult it is to interpret your responses at times, this is something similar to how you would respond --"Insulting meant, not I . Smiley emoticon you did not see.

You're so cute! You still did not answer me.

 

[savagewind]

I trust you @james2ko @djhwoodwerks @Deeje believe that God is the final authority. 1 Corinthians 15:24
Why do you all teach as though scripture is the final authority?

 

[james2ko]

I have noticed that you did not answer me. Did I miss it?

I thought I answered it here. But I am almost certain I misunderstood your post

Was the Word that was in the beginning with God the scripture of the Bible? How is that possible?

The Word was also an individual:

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward."​

The Hebrew term for "vision" always indicates physically viewing something or someone.

There is a lot in scripture which warns wicked people. I could be wrong, but with God in the beginning there were no wicked people. Were there? By the way, I suspect that, according to The Holy Spirit, wicked does not mean sin (though it can), it means wrong.

I would have to say there were no wicked people in the beginning. Unless this is another riddle.

 

[james2ko]

I trust you @james2ko @djhwoodwerks @Deeje believe that God is the final authority. 1 Corinthians 15:24 Why do you all teach as though scripture is the final authority?

Why must the authority of God and the words He has "breathed" be separated? 1 Corinthians 15:24 is yet future. Humans will be judged by what is written in the "biblion" (Rev 20:12)----aka scripture/word of God. And since God's word is to last forever (Isaiah 40:8), the final authority is the One who "breathes" His word--oral or written--now and forever.

 

[savagewind]

I thought I answered it here. But I am almost certain I misunderstood your post



The Word was also an individual:

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward."​

The Hebrew term for "vision" always indicates physically viewing something or someone.



I would have to say there were no wicked people in the beginning. Unless this is another riddle.

The Word was also an individual. Also? I know the Word is an individual. It is Jesus.
Genesis 15:1 is word or "speech". I don't think it is the same a The Word, ie Jesus.

The nightmare I am in

Is scripture "also" the Word of God? Scripture was NOT in the beginning with God. Correct?

 

[savagewind]

Why must the authority of God and the words He has "breathed" be separated? 1 Corinthians 15:24 is yet future. Humans will be judged by what is written in the "biblion" (Rev 20:12)----aka scripture/word of God. And since God's word is to last forever (Isaiah 40:8), the final authority is the One who "breathes" His word--oral or written--now and forever.

Hm. I do not think that "another book was opened" means the Bible books we know. Actually I think the first reference to books being opened is when the Bible became available to all and the second reference to a book means scripture straightened out by The Holy Spirit.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

 

[savagewind]

Just please answer the question. Is scripture the "final authority"? I know God is the final authority so can you imagine the distress I am in seeing that people are calling a book God?

 

[james2ko]

The Word was also an individual. Also? I know the Word is an individual. It is Jesus. Genesis 15:1 is word or "speech". I don't think it is the same a The Word, ie Jesus.

If you believe the word was Jesus and the Hebrew term for "vision" [machazeh-H4236] always means to view or see someone or something, who else identified as the "word" could have possibly come to Abraham saying....."? Perhaps Jehovah skywrote what the word said to Abraham?

The nightmare I am in

You mean the nightmares you get yourself in

Is scripture "also" the Word of God? Scripture was NOT in the beginning with God. Correct?

Yes, scripture is also the word of God. The words God would later breathe through mankind were not in written form in the beginning.

 

[james2ko]

Hm. I do not think that "another book was opened" means the Bible books we know. Actually I think the first reference to books being opened is when the Bible became available to all and the second reference to a book means scripture straightened out by The Holy Spirit.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

That is speculative at best. Unless you have some "drop the mic" scriptural evidence supporting your theory.

 

[james2ko]

Just please answer the question. Is scripture the "final authority"? I know God is the final authority so can you imagine the distress I am in seeing that people are calling a book God?

I answered the question. Your premise is flawed. You are trying to separate something that is inseparable--the final authority of God and His word, both will last forever. I can't help it if you don't like the answer.

 

[savagewind]

I answered the question. Your premise is flawed. You are trying to separate something that is inseparable--the final authority of God and His word, both will last forever. I can't help it if you don't like the answer.

The final authority and THE BIBLE both last forever? That is what I hear you saying.

You might be trying to get people to see your point of view, but how many people can believe that a paper book lasts forever? OMG even the stones God wrote on are gone.

 

[savagewind]

Maybe I should hear what you @james2ko mean when you say, scripture?

Scripture means to me what was written by people and what we now call the Bible. Though I am certain as is possible that what we have, called the Bible, is a forgery.

So, I hear you saying that what I know as a forgery, you know as the final authority. I am not making this nightmare.

 

[james2ko]

The final authority and THE BIBLE both last forever? That is what I hear you saying.

You might be trying to get people to see your point of view, but how many people can believe that a paper book lasts forever? OMG even the stones God wrote on are gone.

If the tree of life, which we can safely assume is going to be around forever, bares leaves and fruit, and is in the middle of the New Jerusalem, why can't books or scrolls, in some form, still exist? (Ezekiel 47:12; Revelation 22:2). Are there not scrolls (biblion) in heaven (Revelation 5:1)? What material did God use to make the heavenly scrolls, tell me if you know all this, SW? (Job 38:18)

 

[james2ko]

Maybe I should hear what you @james2ko mean when you say, scripture?

Scripture means to me what was written by people and what we now call the Bible. Though I am certain as is possible that what we have, called the Bible, is a forgery.

So, I hear you saying that what I know as a forgery, you know as the final authority. I am not making this nightmare.

Until Christ returns and provides the originals, we are commanded to work with what He has currently provided. Cheer up SW, it shouldn't be much longer.

 

[Deeje]

Deeje,

Thanks for your wonderful reply on how you explored God's word. Sorry again for my question, the word "do" shouldn't be there. I'm asking how to have a relationship with God.

How do we humans have a relationship with anyone? We must first get to know them (even though we might have known about them previously,) because it is an entirely different thing to get to know someone personally than it is to just hear about them from others. I felt like I knew a little about God from being raised in the church, but I didn't know him as a person. I was actually a little scared of him to tell the truth. But I knew he was real and I knew he had rules and that those who didn't obey them would be sorry. Everything in me wanted to look past that and see the person Jesus portrayed. He was just like his Father, so I was having trouble reconciling the judge with the loving Father Jesus spoke about.

For some reason, I never saw Jesus as God. I saw in everything he did a need to please his Father, so it just never sat well with me that they were one and the same God.

May I know what are those questions that you asked on that day?

Because I had lost my Father as a teenager, I had so many questions about death...and the fate of those who had passed away. I couldn't reconcile a loving God with eternal torment, and I wanted to know why good people died and bad people were still alive? Why did God take the good people? Why did bad things happen to good people? They answered all these questions in my Bible study. I studied for two years before I dedicated my life to God and was baptized as a member of God's universal family.

Having my questions answered from the Bible was amazing! My minister had no answers for any of those questions and said we just had to trust God. That wasn't enough for me....I needed to know all these things to satisfy myself about them from the Bible. Faith cannot be blind...we are encouraged to read and apply God's word.I knew there had to be answers, but I never found them in the church.....I never found anything of true value in the church.

Another thing that bothered me to no end was my church's involvement in politically motivated war. The Vietnam war was raging at the time and it seemed so wrong for men of God to promote bloodshed. I learned why my feelings on this were well founded.

The other huge thing for me was finding out that God had a name....a personal name that he revealed to man, not a name given to him by any human. (Exodus 3:14-15)

My grandmother had given me a little KJV when I was 10 years old. I loved the illustrations in it and pawed over them often taking in the detail. Not once in church had I ever heard the name "Jehovah", so when JW's told me that God's name was in the Bible, I disputed it because I figured if God had a personal name, that the world would know it. They told me to look at Psalm 83:18 in my KJV...and there it was! It had been there all along, but no one had ever shown this to me...and it blew me away. To know God's name was the beginning of my relationship with him. As with all relationships, we always start with a name. But finding God's name was just the beginning. I also learned why it had been lost and why the correct pronunciation was also lost. I learned the difference between translation and transliteration and the importance of God's name to his people down through the centuries....it was inextricably tied to his people all through their history and reproach on the Jews meant reproach on Jehovah's name. It was no co-incidence that the Jews finally eliminated God's name from their speech and eventually from their scriptures, God sent his son to correct them, but they would have none of it. (Matthew 22:37-39)...Christendom followed suit but a few translations, like the ASV retained the name so that it could still be recognized as the name of God in English. The KJV retained it in only 4 verses.

So there is just a brief history on how I came to "know" the God of the Bible and to want to follow the direction of his son. (John 17:3)

PS...I love my smileys...sometimes I want to use this one...

but its not nice.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

I trust you @james2ko @djhwoodwerks @Deeje believe that God is the final authority. 1 Corinthians 15:24
Why do you all teach as though scripture is the final authority?

You ever wonder why speaking in tongues is in there? Happens of course in the Corinthian church again.

 

[Deeje]

Is the letter from Paul to the Hebrews written to "two" different class of people? Is the first half of the letter to Jesus' anointed brothers and the second half written to.....brothers? Are not Jesus' anointed brothers your leaders?

Hebrews 3:1 (ESV Strong's) 1 Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling,

Hebrews 13:7 (ESV Strong's) 7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.

Hebrews 13:17 (ESV Strong's) 17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls,

Hebrews 13:22 (ESV Strong's) 22 I appeal to you, brothers, bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written to you briefly.

Where did the letter change from talking about "brothers" with a heavenly calling, and "brothers" who don't.

In verse 7, was Paul telling the heaven bound "brothers" to remember their leaders?

In verse 17, was Paul telling the heaven bound brothers to obey their leaders?

In verse 22, did Paul switch back to talking to the heaven bound "brothers"?

The Christian scriptures were written by, for, and to, the anointed brothers of Christ. But all the principles apply to those of the earthly class as well.
Just as Jewish proselytes were part of the Jewish system of things, they were accepted as "brothers" but they were never really considered "Jews" in the same way as those born Jewish. They were often referred to as "alien residents" or "foreigners". (Deut 5:14)

"The Mosaic Law made specific provisions for a person of non-Israelite origin dwelling in Israel. Such an “alien resident” could become a full worshiper of Jehovah, being circumcised, if a male, in acknowledgment of his acceptance of true worship. (Ex 12:48, 49) A proselyte was responsible to obey all of the Law, and he was to be treated by natural Jews as a brother. (Le 19:33, 34; 24:22; Ga 5:3)" (Insight Volume 2)

As Revelation demonstrates, there are two groups who attribute salvation to God and to the Lamb, and we see two groups today.

After seeing 144,000 sealed, with Jesus in heaven, (Revelation 14:1-3; 7:4) John says...
Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14 (ESV)
"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”....Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Here we see a numbered group (144,000) and an unnumbered group all of whom are saved, but the second group are said to 'come out of the great tribulation' as survivors on earth.

So, as the ranks of the anointed were filled, it was discerned that there were many coming into the congregations without the conviction of having been anointed for heavenly life. Since the anointing is so strong, these ones held back from baptism even though they were convinced that they had found the truth. They didn't know where they belonged.

It was announced at the next major assembly that these ones were members of "the other sheep" (John 10:16) whom John said were all members of the same flock, with one shepherd, also being gathered by the fine shepherd. We don't believe that Jesus was talking about gentiles because God's promise to Abraham also included people of all nations. (Genesis 18:18)
When the speaker asked these ones to stand up, there were hundreds who stood to thunderous applause. The unfolding of the sacred secret was still taking place. The other sheep would be the subjects of heavenly kings and priests. (Revelation 20:6)

Because the heavenly kingdom was to have earthly subjects, none of these subjects harbor any jealousy over their salvation to earthly life. They are overjoyed to have kings and priests who have been tested in all ways like themselves and who understand the human condition better than anyone.

This heavenly government is seen bringing rulership to the earth in Revelation 21:1-5. It is the fulfillment of God's original purpose to have the earth "filled" with obedient humans and to have his will done here "on earth as it is in heaven".

 

[savagewind]

If the tree of life, which we can safely assume is going to be around forever, bares leaves and fruit, and is in the middle of the New Jerusalem, why can't books or scrolls, in some form, still exist? (Ezekiel 47:12; Revelation 22:2). Are there not scrolls (biblion) in heaven (Revelation 5:1)? What material did God use to make the heavenly scrolls, tell me if you know all this, SW? (Job 38:18)

You're a literalist. OK. I am not.

 

[Deeje]

That is how God stated it, Deeje, not how God views it. The “statement” we get from reading scripture. The “view” is through your Watchtower prism. In other words, God’s word and the Watchtower’s view are not by necessity the same.

You know, it strikes me as strange that I have a "prism" but you don't.

Who says your "prism" is the correct one?

Let’s focus on the Watchtower view and examine it critically by looking at God’s word in verse 20:

“For if, they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ…”​

This verse describes an individual who has rebuked or turned away from the world. Do you agree?

Now let’s continue with the verse:

“...they are AGAIN entangled in them and overcome, the LAST STATE has become worse for them than the FIRST”.​

So this verse describes TWO states of apostasy, not one. The first is when they turned away from the world, the second when they turned away from God.

Quite simply, you can’t have one without the other, and I don’t understand how you can label one group “apostate” without labeling the other group (yourselves) the same.

Since your "prism" distorts your view IMO, just as our "prism" distorts our view IYO....what makes you think that turning away from the wickedness of the world is "apostasy". That is ridiculous. Turning away from sin is an obligation for Christians, in obedience to the teachings of the Christ.
So those who hear the Christian message, turn from sin as they must if they want to be considered as disciples of God's son. If those who have been 'washed clean in the blood of Christ' return to their former ways, it is worse than someone who ignorantly continues in a sinful course, not really knowing any better. This is what 2 Peter 2:20-22 means to me.
I thought that was rather obvious.

Are you inferring that I said otherwise?

I like the part where you stated: “An apostate is one who defects from his spiritual family...” The important thing to remember here is that there are two “spiritual families”, not one, and you are either an apostate of one or the other. You cannot belong to Christ and be a spiritual member of the world, and you cannot be a spiritual member of the world and belong to Christ. Do you agree with this?

When I look at your entire sentence, I see you agreeing with me:

“An apostate to us is one who defects from their spiritual family after learning the truth from God's word...like Peter describes...”

At this point, the person has defected (apostatized) from the religious/worldly spiritual darkness after learning God’s truth. He is a member of God's family. Am I correct?

You then provided scripture to support your position, which was excellent.

OK.....now I am really confused, since I do not see this first "apostasy" you speak of....in fact the majority of people in western nations like ours are gravitating to atheism and unbelief. Is that considered "spiritual"?

As used in scripture, "apostasy" always pertains to abandoning God's true worship and replacing it with a substitute. This is what I see in Christendom. When you disagree with one person's interpretation of scripture, you can just break away and form your own church founded on your own ideas. Is that what Jesus taught? Make up your own truth?

But then you provide a “view” which appears at odds with what you stated before, the scripture provided, and to which I take issue. The verses simply tell us the story of a person who left the darkness, entered the light, but then decided to re-enter the dark again. He first becomes an apostate when he rebukes the darkness, but continues to be an apostate when he rebukes the light. The verse is not telling us it's bad to be an apostate (How could he have ever become a Christian otherwise?) the verse is telling us it's even worse for those who rebuke God after coming to know Him than those who never knew Him before.

I don't think your interpretation of "apostasy" is biblical. It is always wrong to be an apostate in God's definition of the word. There are no 'good apostates' and 'bad apostates'..there are just "apostates"....those who defect from the truth to return to the ways of the world. (1 John 5:19)

BTW, this verse states nothing about joining and leaving religions, but of coming to know and leave Christ.

Hmmmm..."joining and leaving religions:?.....is that leaving non-Christian religions and accepting Christianity? or are we talking about joining and leaving sects within Christendom's many denominations? Who can choose? Christendom is broken up into so many bickering factions that it is hard to tell who is actually a Christian, except in name only? I left that rabble over 40 years ago and it has just continued to fragment even further....literally thousands of churches claiming to be Christ's church. Is that how it should be? (1 Corinthians 1:10)

IMO you are confusing the issue by inventing an "apostasy" that scripture never speaks about.

As such I see nothing in the verses quoted that gives Witnesses justification or license to label “Apostate!” on the backs of those leaving the organization unless they slap it with equal gusto on the foreheads of those entering, and while I appreciate the fact you took time to describe what you believe, I was simply trying to find out why.

As I said... your view is the way you see things....but it is not correct to my understanding. You raise issues that do not exist and expect an explanation for them.

You are entitled to believe whatever you wish. That is what we all have to do...take a position and make ourselves ready to meet our judge....we all have the same one and he is going to reject some pretty surprised people on that day. (Matthew 7:21-23) I will just let him do his job whilst I let people know what I believe to be "the good news of the kingdom".

What is the good news of the kingdom to you?

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

Hey there Deeje, Some quotes about the "Spirit" are from the Jewish side of the Bible. Why didn't Jews ever think of the "Spirit" as an equal but separate part of a Godhead? Plus, they never thought of the Messiah as "God" either. And because of the various meetings held by early Christians, even they had to hammer out a few things about who and what was going on. After deciding that God must be a Trinity, that was the only thing that made sense, they had to figure out what to do about Mary? Since she was the mother of Jesus, and since Jesus is God, then she must be the Mother of God. But no way could she be tainted by "original sin" so maybe, she was "immaculately" conceived? Must be, there is no other way to explain it.

Because of the road the early Church did go down, I have to question all those decisions they made, including making God a trinity. Even a duality doesn't work for me, unless you make it a good vs. evil duality. But there is a trinity I like... the one Hindu's have... Brahma at the top, with Vishnu and Shiva under him and they delegate things out to all the lessor gods. But I don't think they have a separate "Spirit of Brahma" or a "Son of Brahma" in their mix of gods do they? And yet, they are called "poly-theistic" and Christians aren't? Or maybe they are, I suppose some Jews might think the Trinity is a little toward the poly-theistic side.

Thanks Deeje for you answers in your other posts and for not ducking the tough questions. Hopefully you'll get some more people responding.

Gods spirit moved across the waters