Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

[Deeje]

Jesus was speaking as a human. Notice I put in bold and underlined the term "glorified" in post 25. It was the glorified Christ, in His pre-incarnate and post resurrection form, who was Jehovah's holy spirit. As a human, Christ had to be given the holy spirit by the progenitor of the Spirit's power--His Father.

I find no scriptural support at all for this assertion.

Paul consistently identified God The Father as Jehovah and Christ as Lord to the Corinthians. NWT translators didn't need to be inconsistent with 2 co 3:17, as it does not prove the trinity. It only proves the "glorified" Christ was also the holy spirit. I guess it was too close for comfort, hence the insertion of Jehovah for kurios.

In analyzing the scriptures in context, "kyrios" is simply the title "Lord" which applies to even some humans in positions of authority. Both Jehovah and his son can be rightly addressed by the same title, but it doesn't make them equal.

Just to clear up a logical hiccup in your statement about Michael and Gabriel. The fact Exo 23:20 doesn't mention either by name should have excluded your universal quantifying phrase "most definitely". You are also illogically indicating that the mere identification of Michael and Gabriel as the only two angels mentioned by name in scripture would limit Jehovah (God) to the use of only one of the two in Exodus.

Hold on.....I said "most definitely COULD HAVE BEEN"....I was not affirming one way or the other. The Bible does not give the name of the angel who led Israel in the wilderness.

And I have not stated that God only used two angels. I said these are the only two named in the whole of scripture. Both are featured in acts of great importance to God's people.

 

[syo]

In Orthodox Christianity the Holy Spirit is part of the Holy Trinity, therefore it's God.

Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[james2ko]

And I have not stated that God only used two angels.

1. Read my statement carefully. I said, your statement "indicates" this conclusion. Indicates means when your full statement is read in context, it can denote this conclusion. Never said you actually "stated" this conclusion.

Hold on.....I said "most definitely COULD HAVE BEEN"....I was not affirming one way or the other. The Bible does not give the name of the angel who led Israel in the wilderness. I said these are the only two named in the whole of scripture. Both are featured in acts of great importance to God's people.

2. Those two phrases (most definitely/could have been) written within the context of the same statement, are opposing quantifiers. Wordly politicians use them to cover all of their bases. Nicely done.

In analyzing the scriptures in context, "kyrios" is simply the title "Lord" which applies to even some humans in positions of authority. Both Jehovah and his son can be rightly addressed by the same title, but it doesn't make them equal.

3. I realize "kurios" carries a broad connotation. But as every learned JW should know, scriptural analysis should also take into consideration a term's usage by a biblical author. You posted a great example (1 Co 8:6) of how Paul's use of the term (kurios) identifies Christ and not Jehovah (The Father) to the Corinthians. Here are others:

1Co_1:3 Grace to you and peace from God [Jehovah] our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co_4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.

1Co_5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Co_6:14 And God [Jehovah] both raised up the Lord [Christ] and will also raise us up by His power.

1Co_6:17 "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him". (the context several verses before indicates the "Lord" is Jesus. Interestingly, the NWT translated it "Lord")

1Co 7:25 Now concerning virgins: I have no commandment from the Lord; yet I give judgment as one whom the Lord in His mercy has made trustworthy. (context again speaking of Christ)​

1Co_11:20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper.​

2Co_1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. ​

There are many more. You can look up the rest yourself. Not once does Paul use kurios to indicate the Father to the Corinthians.

I find no scriptural support at all for this assertion.

4. Unfortunately, as I have demonstrated, as long as you have the JW blinders on, you will not find any.

 

[JesusBeliever]

The scripture that Jesus read was Isaiah 61:1, 2....

"The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn" (ASV)

Since Jesus read from Hebrew scripture and the tetragrammaton was clearly seen in the text three times in that passage, Jesus would not have left his Father's name unuttered.

Yes I agree with this!

The NT should have God's name where it belongs in every quoted OT verse.

And I might even be able to agree with this, if this is simply what the NWT did. But there is plenty of evidence that they have done more than this, causing one to suspect that their motive is to destroy any trace of the deity of Christ. A simple example of this is John 1:1 where they add "A" where there is no justification for it.

John 1:1 KJV+Strongs In G1722  the beginning G746  was G2258  the G3588  Word, G3056  and G2532  the G3588  Word G3056  was G2258  with G4314  God, G2316  and G2532  the G3588  Word G3056  was G2258  God. G2316 

John 1:1 NWT In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god.

(also note the little "g")

Not one Bible verse calls Yeshua, Yahweh.

Actually it does but you probably wouldn't accept it along with many others. But despite this I ain't ashamed to admit that I believe it, Jehovah has become my Jesus!:

"The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him." Exodus 15:2

If we replaced the words underlined above with the Hebrew names it would say:

"YAH is my strength and song, and he is become my YESHUAH: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him." Exodus 15:2

God has only one name, that was to be his memorial "forever", (Ex 3:15) whilst Jesus has quite a few names, one of them given to him on his return to heaven that he does not reveal. (Rev 3:12).

Actually the word translated as "FOREVER" is in itself debatable. Just look up the many ways that OLAM has been translated through out the OT. That might be a discussion for another thread. And despite Jesus having other names it doesn't negate the fact that we're told:

Acts 4:12 KJV "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Acts 4:12 NWT Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name+ under heaven that has BEEN given among men by which we must get saved.”

Actually the more I think about it...EXODUS 3:14 (please hear me out coz I've been pondering this for at least the past hour, I took a break! )

Whether we believe that He said I AM THAT I AM as the KJV teaches...
Or I WILL BECOME WHAT I CHOOSE TO BECOME as the NWT teaches...
Info I read at the JW.org site agrees that in this verse God was giving the meaning of His name Jehovah.
We know that the abbreviated meaning was also given in this same verse...
I AM in the KJV..
I WILL BECOME in the NWT...
And I was pleased to see that the NWT (unlike the KJV) were happy to use God's abbreviated name of JAH as well. Here's just one example from the NWT:

Psalms 68:18 You ascended on high;+You carried away captives;You took gifts in the form of men,+Yes, even stubborn ones,+ to reside among them, O Jah God.

Thanks for your patience, I'm almost there...
So if Jehovah = I AM THAT I AM (KJV)
Or I WILL BECOME WHAT I CHOOSE TO BECOME (NWT)
And Jah = I AM (KJV)
Or I WILL BECOME (NWT)
Then Jesus = I AM (KJV) SALVATION
Or I WILL BECOME (NWT) SALVATION

The meaning of Jesus name is confirmed by the fact that when speaking about Joshua who led the Israelites into the promised land, the NT writers call him Jesus. And the cool thing is that the NWT confirms this by translating the name as Joshua. Here's the verse from both translations:

Hebrews 4:8 KJV "For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day."

Hebrews 4:8 NWT For if Joshua+ had led them into a place of rest, God would not afterward have spoken of another day.

Which the Watch Tower library agrees:

(Joshʹu·a) [shortened form of Jehoshua, meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation”] (see here)

Looking at the meaning of Jehovah as given in Exodus 3:14 it makes sense that Jesus was given the shortened form of God's name otherwise it would translate to:

I AM THAT I AM (KJV) SALVATION
Or I WILL BECOME WHAT I CHOOSE TO BECOME (NWT) SALVATION

Instead of:

I AM (KJV) SALVATION
Or I WILL BECOME (NWT) SALVATION

Which makes more sense.
Either way, whether we believe Jesus name means Jah is Salvation or Jehovah is Salvation, every time a Christian calls on the name of Jesus they are acknowledging and glorifying in ONE NAME the Father and the Son.

I might have to leave your other comments for later coz this is already long.

 

[Deeje]

In re-reading your responses JB, I just noticed that you said that you "studied Jehovah's Witnesses" but not "with Jehovah's Witnesses". That puts a completely different spin on your experience in my view. To say that you have studied JW's makes me wonder how you undertook such a study?

And I might even be able to agree with this, if this is simply what the NWT did. But there is plenty of evidence that they have done more than this, causing one to suspect that their motive is to destroy any trace of the deity of Christ. A simple example of this is John 1:1 where they add "A" where there is no justification for it.

John 1:1 KJV+Strongs In G1722  the beginning G746  was G2258  the G3588  Word, G3056  and G2532  the G3588  Word G3056  was G2258  with G4314  God, G2316  and G2532  the G3588  Word G3056  was G2258  God. G2316 

John 1:1 NWT In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god.

(also note the little "g")

An interlinear will clear this up easily.

"᾿Εν In ἀρχῇ beginning ἦν was ὁ the λόγος, Word, καὶ and ὁ the λόγος Word ἦν was πρὸς toward τὸν the θεόν, God, καὶ and θεὸς god ἦν was ὁ the λόγος. Word."

In Greek there are no capital letters and no indefinite articles ("a" or "an") there is only the definite article ("the"). In reading John 1:1 you will see that it literally reads "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was toward (or with) "the God" (τὸν the θεόν, God) and god was the Word"

There are actually two "gods" spoken about in John 1:1. The Greek word for god is "theos" which Strongs defines as....

"a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities". "Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with ὁ (G3588)) the supreme Divinity"

Do you see that little "ὁ" in the Greek? It denotes the definite article, "the" and singles out the supreme God. It is used with reference to God in the first instance but not the second.

"Theos" is not an exclusive title for the Almighty but simply means "a mighty one". Greeks had multiple gods so their word does not carry the same definition as our English word does. Satan is called theos in 2 Corinthians 4:4. So John 1:1 isn't saying what Christendom claims that it does. How can one be "with" God and at the same time BE God?

Actually it does but you probably wouldn't accept it along with many others. But despite this I ain't ashamed to admit that I believe it, Jehovah has become my Jesus!:

"The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him." Exodus 15:2

If we replaced the words underlined above with the Hebrew names it would say:

"YAH is my strength and song, and he is become my YESHUAH: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him." Exodus 15:2

OK...lets examine this a bit more closely....

Exodus 15:2 is speaking about Yahweh (Jehovah) The "LORD" there is where the tetragrammation was written in the original text. "yĕshuw`ah" means salvation. It is true that Jesus' name means "Jehovah is Salvation", but in context, what is Moses saying there? Yahweh is his God responsible for his salvation. In calling him "my father's God" he is acknowledging his forefather Abraham. This is not a scripture calling Jesus, Yahweh.

Actually the word translated as "FOREVER" is in itself debatable. Just look up the many ways that OLAM has been translated through out the OT. That might be a discussion for another thread.

According to Strongs...."`owlam

1. 
   
2. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
   1. 
      
   2. ancient time, long time (of past)
      
      
   3. (of future)
      1. 
         
      2. for ever, always
         
         
      3. continuous existence, perpetual
         
         
      4. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity."
      https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H5769&t=NASB

I think its safe to say that God's name was to last forever.

 

[Deeje]

And despite Jesus having other names it doesn't negate the fact that we're told:

Acts 4:12 KJV "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Acts 4:12 NWT Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name+ under heaven that has BEEN given among men by which we must get saved.”

There is a little description given in that verse that qualifies what it is saying...".for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved."

That means that under heaven Jesus' name is the one attached to salvation, but the main source of salvation is the heavenly one who sent him.
God's name is the one we must call on. (Acts 2:21; Romans 10:13; Joel 2:32)

Actually the more I think about it...EXODUS 3:14 (please hear me out coz I've been pondering this for at least the past hour, I took a break! )

Whether we believe that He said I AM THAT I AM as the KJV teaches...
Or I WILL BECOME WHAT I CHOOSE TO BECOME as the NWT teaches...
Info I read at the JW.org site agrees that in this verse God was giving the meaning of His name Jehovah.
We know that the abbreviated meaning was also given in this same verse...
I AM in the KJV..
I WILL BECOME in the NWT...
And I was pleased to see that the NWT (unlike the KJV) were happy to use God's abbreviated name of JAH as well. Here's just one example from the NWT:

Psalms 68:18 You ascended on high;+You carried away captives;You took gifts in the form of men,+Yes, even stubborn ones,+ to reside among them, O Jah God.

Who were the “gifts in the form of men” spoken about in this Psalm? These were men from among those taken captive during the conquest of the Promised Land. Such men were later assigned to assist the Levites in their work.—Ezra 8:20. Jah is the shortened form of Jehovah. We see this in Hallelujah. (Which means "Praise Jehovah")

Thanks for your patience, I'm almost there...
So if Jehovah = I AM THAT I AM (KJV)
Or I WILL BECOME WHAT I CHOOSE TO BECOME (NWT)
And Jah = I AM (KJV)
Or I WILL BECOME (NWT)
Then Jesus = I AM (KJV) SALVATION
Or I WILL BECOME (NWT) SALVATION

The meaning of Jesus name is confirmed by the fact that when speaking about Joshua who led the Israelites into the promised land, the NT writers call him Jesus. And the cool thing is that the NWT confirms this by translating the name as Joshua. Here's the verse from both translations:

Hebrews 4:8 KJV "For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day."

Hebrews 4:8 NWT For if Joshua+ had led them into a place of rest, God would not afterward have spoken of another day.

Which the Watch Tower library agrees:

(Joshʹu·a) [shortened form of Jehoshua, meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation”] (see here)

Joshua's original name was Hoshea, but Moses called him Joshua or Jehoshua. (Nu 13:8, 16) Just as Joshua led the Israelites into the Promised Land, so Jesus leads his followers into their "Promised Land"...the "new earth" that we are eagerly awaiting. (2 Pet 3: 13)

Looking at the meaning of Jehovah as given in Exodus 3:14 it makes sense that Jesus was given the shortened form of God's name otherwise it would translate to:

I AM THAT I AM (KJV) SALVATION
Or I WILL BECOME WHAT I CHOOSE TO BECOME (NWT) SALVATION

Instead of:

I AM (KJV) SALVATION
Or I WILL BECOME (NWT) SALVATION

Which makes more sense.

Sorry, but that is an equation I cannot make from scripture. Jesus is not Jehovah and never was. If you can furnish one clear statement from either God or his Christ that there is even equality between them, I will gladly discuss it.

Either way, whether we believe Jesus name means Jah is Salvation or Jehovah is Salvation, every time a Christian calls on the name of Jesus they are acknowledging and glorifying in ONE NAME the Father and the Son.

No sorry, I have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion. The ONE NAME of the Father is NOT shared by the son except as a descriptor as to the origin of salvation.
Jesus was "sent" by his Father to save mankind...he did not come of his own initiative. Jesus acknowledged that his Father was "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3)

I might have to leave your other comments for later coz this is already long.

They can get away from us...there is so much to discuss.

 

[Yoshua]

An interlinear will clear this up easily.

"᾿Εν In ἀρχῇ beginning ἦν was ὁ the λόγος, Word, καὶ and ὁ the λόγος Word ἦν was πρὸς toward τὸν the θεόν, God, καὶ and θεὸς god ἦν was ὁ the λόγος. Word."

In Greek there are no capital letters and no indefinite articles ("a" or "an") there is only the definite article ("the"). In reading John 1:1 you will see that it literally reads "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was toward (or with) "the God" (τὸν the θεόν, God) and god was the Word"

There are actually two "gods" spoken about in John 1:1. The Greek word for god is "theos" which Strongs defines as....

"a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities". "Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with ὁ (G3588)) the supreme Divinity"

Do you see that little "ὁ" in the Greek? It denotes the definite article, "the" and singles out the supreme God. It is used with reference to God in the first instance but not the second.

"Theos" is not an exclusive title for the Almighty but simply means "a mighty one". Greeks had multiple gods so their word does not carry the same definition as our English word does. Satan is called theos in 2 Corinthians 4:4. So John 1:1 isn't saying what Christendom claims that it does. How can one be "with" God and at the same time BE God?

Hi Deeje,

NT:2316
theos (theh'-os); of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with NT:3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:
KJV - exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NT:3588
ho (ho); including the feminine he (hay); and the neuter to (to); in all their inflections; the def. article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom):
KJV - the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc..
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Who says it is mighty?? If there is a mighty god and an Almighty God, there you have two Gods/gods.
Your question "How can one be "with" God and at the same time BE God?" is the proof that one God exists in three persons. It shows, and I don't think why it should be re-interpreted as a "god" to become a "mighty god."


Thanks

 

[Deeje]

Who says it is mighty?? If there is a mighty god and an Almighty God, there you have two Gods/gods.

John 1:1 says there are two "gods" but only one is "the God" (ho theos). The Greek word "theos" is not a name but a description of the one who bears it.....satan is called the "theos" of this world. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) Jesus said that his own Father called human judges in Israel "gods". (John 10:34-36) There are "many gods and many lords" according to Paul. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) but to us "there is one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ".

Your question "How can one be "with" God and at the same time BE God?" is the proof that one God exists in three persons.

Or it shows that Jesus is not "the God" and never was. He is the divine "son of God" but nowhere is Jesus ever called Almighty God. There is no "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" ever mentioned in the Bible....those terms were invented by an apostate church.

The holy spirit is not a person. You do understand that the trinity was not adopted into church doctrine until three hundred years after Jesus died? The Jews did not believe in a three in one godhead and since Jesus was Jewish, he never taught such a thing. Rather he taught that his Father was "the only true God" (John 17:3) and that we should "worship him alone" (Luke 4:8)

 

[james2ko]

The holy spirit is not a person. You do understand that the trinity was not adopted into church doctrine until three hundred years after Jesus died? The Jews did not believe in a three in one godhead and since Jesus was Jewish, he never taught such a thing. Rather he taught that his Father was "the only true God" (John 17:3) and that we should "worship him alone" (Luke 4:8)

Yes and no. Yes--it is a person, no-- it is not part of any trinity. It is The Father's power manifested in "a" glorified person--Jesus Christ. But it is not a third person. The Godhead seems to consists of three entities/existences:

The Father-Source of the holy spirit
The Son-incarnate Christ
Holy Spirit- pre-incarnate Christ (Gen 1:2-Spirit of God; Isa 63:8-10); post incarnate Christ (1 Co 1:24; 2 Co 3:17;1 Jo 2:1-2)

But only two personalities or persons--Christ and The Father.

I realize it is an unorthodox view, but it is the only unbiased explanation consistent with the scriptures on the topic I have come across so far.

 

[Deeje]

Yes and no. Yes--it is a person, no-- it is not part of any trinity. It is The Father's power manifested in "a" glorified person--Jesus Christ. But it is not a third person.

The holy spirit was used in a variety of ways in the Bible....it even empowered imperfect humans so that they could perform miracles like healings and resurrections....speaking in foreign languages etc. These were called the "gifts of the spirit", which was imparted by God through Jesus Christ. It is God's spirit and could be passed onto others by the apostles through the laying on of hands.

Back in ancient times God's spirit empowered Moses to perform miracles in Egypt to show Pharaoh the strength of his God. And in Israel to display God's care and guidance for them on a daily basis.

The Godhead seems to consists of three entities/existences:

Show me a "godhead" in the Bible. Show me one single direct reference to Jesus being an equal to his Father?

"Theos" is not a description of the Father alone, but when there needed to be a distinction made in separating "a" god from "the god", the definite article made the distinction. In John 1:1, such a distinction is clearly evident in Greek but not in biased translations trying to push a trinitarian agenda.

The Father-Source of the holy spirit

The Father is "the only true God" according to Jesus. (John 17:3) We are to worship him "alone" (Luke 4:8)

The Son-incarnate Christ

The son of God is a creation of his Father uniquely "begotten" as the first and only direct creation of his God.
As the Logos, (spokesman) he was "with" his Father "in the beginning". Since God has no beginning as an eternal being, this is speaking about the beginning of creation.

Holy Spirit- pre-incarnate Christ (Gen 1:2-Spirit of God; Isa 63:8-10); post incarnate Christ (1 Co 1:24; 2 Co 3:17;1 Jo 2:1-2)

There is no scripture that says Jesus is the holy spirit. He himself needed God to empower him at his baptism. The holy spirit descended like a dove upon the man Jesus anointing him as Messiah and giving him supernatural abilities. He was just Jesus the carpenter's son before his baptism, unable to perform any miracles, but he demonstrated God's power, not his own. This power was able to be imparted to others.

But only two personalities or persons--Christ and The Father.

Two distinct personalities...both "mighty ones" but only one is "the God".

I realize it is an unorthodox view, but it is the only unbiased explanation consistent with the scriptures on the topic I have come across so far.

I don't believe that we can have beliefs in isolation to others. I don't believe that the holy spirit guides and directs Christ's followers in a disunited and haphazard fashion.
What singles out true Christians is their unity. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

 

[james2ko]

The holy spirit was used in a variety of ways in the Bible....it even empowered imperfect humans so that they could perform miracles like healings and resurrections....speaking in foreign languages etc. These were called the "gifts of the spirit", which was imparted by God through Jesus Christ. It is God's spirit and could be passed onto others by the apostles through the laying on of hands.

Back in ancient times God's spirit empowered Moses to perform miracles in Egypt to show Pharaoh the strength of his God. And in Israel to display God's care and guidance for them on a daily basis.

1. I was not asking "how" the holy spirit was/is used. I was referring to His identity--the pre and post incarnate Christ. I didn't reply to the other references about Jesus' deity because I mostly agree with the JW's interpretation.

There is no scripture that says Jesus is the holy spirit. He himself needed God to empower him at his baptism. The holy spirit descended like a dove upon the man Jesus anointing him as Messiah and giving him supernatural abilities. He was just Jesus the carpenter's son before his baptism, unable to perform any miracles, but he demonstrated God's power, not his own. This power was able to be imparted to others.

2. You claim there are no scriptures, yet completely ignored my earlier post about Paul's exclusive use of the term kurios in identifying Christ to the Corinthians. The glorified Christ is the (holy) spirit (2 Co 3:17). Christ is also identified as the power of God (1 Co 1:24). We see an indirect reference to Him as the Spirit of God hovering over the waters ready to renovate the earth He once helped create at His Father's Word in Gen 1:2.

We see Him in Isa 63:8-10 as the Angel of His (The Father's) Presence) who saved and redeemed the OT Israelites, yet they grieved His (The Father's) holy spirit-this Angel= the preincarnate Christ. Paul admonishes the Ephesians not to "grieve" (Eph 4:30) the Spirit of God (Jehovah) who is actually the Spirit of Christ that is in us (Rom 8:9).

It is abundantly clear, the Spirit of Christ is AKA the holy spirit (2 Co 3:17). Unless you can come up with a scripture(s) that directly states the glorified Christ is "not" the holy spirit, my interpretation will have to stand.

I don't believe that we can have beliefs in isolation to others. I don't believe that the holy spirit guides and directs Christ's followers in a disunited and haphazard fashion. What singles out true Christians is their unity. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

3. Christ didn't seem to mind "isolated" beliefs. This is evident in his discourse to the religious leaders. He said the Pharisees and Scribes (Saducees) sat on Moses seat and told the people to observed and do as they say (Mat 23:2), even though He knew they had competing beliefs!!

JW's take 1 Co 1 out of context. It shows the favoring of specific teachers (Paul and Apollos) on the basis of their respective rhetorical or philosophical skills (1:18–4:21). As the letter proceeds it becomes clear that the main basis for division derives from differences of social stratification (class) within the congregation..

As a matter of fact, the same separatist/elitist attitude for which Paul condemns the Corinthians, is the same attitude displayed by the Pharisees, JW's, and any group claiming they are the only human organization of whom God is working.

 

[Deeje]

1. I was not asking "how" the holy spirit was/is used. I was referring to His identity--the pre and post incarnate Christ. I didn't reply to the other references about Jesus' deity because I mostly agree with the JW's interpretation.

I am glad that we have some points of agreement James.

2. You claim there are no scriptures, yet completely ignored my earlier post about Paul's exclusive use of the term kurios in identifying Christ to the Corinthians. The glorified Christ is the (holy) spirit (2 Co 3:17). Christ is also identified as the power of God (1 Co 1:24). We see an indirect reference to Him as the Spirit of God hovering over the waters ready to renovate the earth He once helped create at His Father's Word in Gen 1:2.

Keeping Peter's words in mind...."14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."
I think you are reading what you want to believe into Paul's words.....you can accuse us of the same, but Peter said this was not unusual.

In the entirety of scripture, Jesus is portrayed as the "son of God", both before and after his earthly mission.....he is not the holy spirit, but was a channel of God's spirit in the accomplishment of his Father's will; he was a partaker of the holy spirit on earth like others to whom it was granted and could pass it on to still others. Before his ministry began, Jesus was not a miracle worker.

We see Him in Isa 63:8-10 as the Angel of His (The Father's) Presence) who saved and redeemed the OT Israelites, yet they grieved His (The Father's) holy spirit-this Angel= the preincarnate Christ. Paul admonishes the Ephesians not to "grieve" (Eph 4:30) the Spirit of God (Jehovah) who is actually the Spirit of Christ that is in us (Rom 8:9).

It is abundantly clear, the Spirit of Christ is AKA the holy spirit (2 Co 3:17). Unless you can come up with a scripture(s) that directly states the glorified Christ is "not" the holy spirit, my interpretation will have to stand.

If Jesus is the holy spirit then, like the trinity, it would be clearly stated in the Bible. You cannot validate a belief on what is 'inferred' in scripture since others infer the opposite with equal implication. Without a clear and unequivocal statement, it is at best an assumption.

We go by what Jesus called himself...."the son of God".

3. Christ didn't seem to mind "isolated" beliefs. This is evident in his discourse to the religious leaders. He said the Pharisees and Scribes (Saducees) sat on Moses seat and told the people to observed and do as they say (Mat 23:2), even though He knew they had competing beliefs!!

I think you are misreading that scripture....

Matthew 23:1-3
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice."

As the ones occupying "the seat of Moses" these religious leaders were still teaching the law to God's people. The time had not yet come to 'dethrone' them, but as Jesus stated in Matthew 23:37-39 their house would be "abandoned". Jesus said to do what they say according to the teachings of Moses, but NOT to practice what they were doing, as he went on to list. (Matthew 23:4-11)

Christians were to be united in their beliefs. (1 Corinthians 1:10) If someone tried to bring in another teaching, he was to be disciplined. (2 John 9-11)

JW's take 1 Co 1 out of context. It shows the favoring of specific teachers (Paul and Apollos) on the basis of their respective rhetorical or philosophical skills (1:18–4:21). As the letter proceeds it becomes clear that the main basis for division derives from differences of social stratification (class) within the congregation..

Since "all scripture is inspired of God" ( 2 Timothy 3:16) we take all of the Bible into consideration when taking a position on any belief. It has to harmonize with what the entirety of scripture teaches about God, his son and his holy spirit. Jesus did not come to teach us about a different God or to create a new religion. He came to teach the truth about his God, which has never changed.

As a matter of fact, the same separatist/elitist attitude for which Paul condemns the Corinthians, is the same attitude displayed by the Pharisees, JW's, and any group claiming they are the only human organization of whom God is working.

If that is the case, then Israel was "separatist/elitist" with God's sanction. It is the separateness that identifies true Christians in this time of the end. Jesus, as God's appointed judge, separates the "sheep" from the "goats"....the "wheat" from the "weeds"....so a separation is necessary.....and a complete separation from Babylon the great is required as well.....where does that leave you?

We all have to be part of the (now global) brotherhood of Christ (Christians) who in the first century had to separate themselves out from the apostate Jewish system of worship. In this time of the end, we also have to remove ourselves from Babylon the great (Revelation 18:4-5) in order to be a citizen of God's kingdom.

Who or what is Babylon the great? And who are God's "people" to whom this command is directed?

 

[james2ko]

I am glad that we have some points of agreement James.

1. I have points of agreement with the Mormons, Messianics, Evangelicals and other Christian sects. I also have unbelieving friends and friends from other faiths. Before you bring it up, having friends with a different belief system is not the same as being unequally yoked, as Christ exemplified.

Keeping Peter's words in mind...."14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."
I think you are reading what you want to believe into Paul's words.....you can accuse us of the same, but Peter said this was not unusual.

In the entirety of scripture, Jesus is portrayed as the "son of God", both before and after his earthly mission.....he is not the holy spirit, but was a channel of God's spirit in the accomplishment of his Father's will; he was a partaker of the holy spirit on earth like others to whom it was granted and could pass it on to still others. Before his ministry began, Jesus was not a miracle worker.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​

2. I looked up the passage in the Greek and there is nothing to read into Paul's words other than what is written. The channel argument is extremely weak as we can all be channels of The Father. The problem is not with Paul's words, it is with your institutions method of operation.

They have programmed the minds of their members to only accept their teachings as truth, which is fine, but where the JW's err is by engendering condemnation in their members toward other Christians for not espousing JW beliefs.. And some of these groups are just as wrong for condemning the beliefs of your organization.

If Jesus is the holy spirit then, like the trinity, it would be clearly stated in the Bible. You cannot validate a belief on what is 'inferred' in scripture since others infer the opposite with equal implication. Without a clear and unequivocal statement, it is at best an assumption.We go by what Jesus called himself...."the son of God".

3. There is no trinity relationship mentioned in scripture. It is two persons, one of which had a spirit and human existence. Trinitarians count these existences as two separate persons (The Son and holy spirit), when they are actually the same person in different form! The identity of the holy spirit is clearly mentioned. There is no inference needed in 2 Co 3:17. It is a clear, unequivocal statement. The rest of the scriptures I posted merely support it.

I think you are misreading that scripture....Matthew 23:1-3 "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice."

As the ones occupying "the seat of Moses" these religious leaders were still teaching the law to God's people. The time had not yet come to 'dethrone' them, but as Jesus stated in Matthew 23:37-39 their house would be "abandoned". Jesus said to do what they say according to the teachings of Moses, but NOT to practice what they were doing, as he went on to list. (Matthew 23:4-11)

4. I believe I'm reading it clearly. Jesus stated "....practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don't follow their example. For they don't practice what they teach (NLT). It is clear to me Christ here condemned their hypocritical attitude, not their disunited beliefs. In other passages, Christ's condemns their elitist, self-righteous attitude.

Christians were to be united in their beliefs. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

5. I realize you have to keep repeating what you've been programmed to say as a response for this verse without really addressing my rebuttal, But as I've demonstrated, disunited beliefs is not what 1 Co 1:10 is addressing. Paul preached against forming cliques (schisma) within the congregation based on social class.

If someone tried to bring in another teaching, he was to be disciplined. (2 John 9-11)

6. Once again taking the verse out of context. It states if "....anyone wanders away from "this" doctrine (singular)..."( 2 Jo 9) ..What particular doctrine is John referring to? Verse 8 tells us John is referring to the teaching of denying Christ came in a real body. The context is speaking of this one singular doctrine. Again this is within the congregation.

Since "all scripture is inspired of God" ( 2 Timothy 3:16) we take all of the Bible into consideration when taking a position on any belief. It has to harmonize with what the entirety of scripture teaches about God, his son and his holy spirit. Jesus did not come to teach us about a different God or to create a new religion.

7. So do I. I've posted and explained several passages in the Old and New Testaments identifying the glorified Christ as the holy spirit.

He came to teach the truth about his God, which has never changed.

8. JW's are just another sect claiming what almost every Christian sect claims--they have the truth of God. Nothing wrong with this. What is wrong is the condemnation of others for not believing as you do.

If that is the case, then Israel was "separatist/elitist" with God's sanction.

9. There is a difference between being separated by God and displaying feelings and actions of superiority over others, due to that separation. The 1st century religious leaders, JW's, and others exhibit the latter.

It is the separateness that identifies true Christians in this time of the end. Jesus, as God's appointed judge, separates the "sheep" from the "goats"....the "wheat" from the "weeds"....so a separation is necessary.....and a complete separation from Babylon the great is required as well.....where does that leave you?

10. That separation of wheat and tares is yet future and its executed by Christ, not us. Christ indicated, in the meantime, let the wheat and tares grow together until He returns (Mat 13:29-30).

Yes, we are to separate ourselves from the "world", but according to Christ's example in dining and mingling with the scribes and Pharisees, we should not separate ourselves from people simply because they hold different beliefs. Christ admonished the disciples for displaying an elitist attitude when stopping a different group from performing a miracle (Mar 9:38-40). He also called out the Pharisees' elitism through the parable of Pharisee and tax collector.

We all have to be part of the (now global) brotherhood of Christ (Christians) who in the first century had to separate themselves out from the apostate Jewish system of worship.

10a. The bible is clear. There was no permanent separation between Jew and Greek in the 1st century church. These True Christians' motive to separate themselves was not derived from a desire to escape some system of worship. It was out of a desire to live! They would be killed if they stuck around.

In this time of the end, we also have to remove ourselves from Babylon the great (Revelation 18:4-5) in order to be a citizen of God's kingdom.

11. Read the text carefully. We are not to partake of her sins. Does not say anything about shunning all people who do not believe as we do. Yes, we are to keep our distance from those who may knowingly influence or encourage us to sin.

But we are to still love them, do good to them, and pray for them (Mat 5:44). How can we do these things effectively, if we don't have any contact or relations with them? Like the Pharisees, the elitist attitude of most JW's creates a barrier that makes this admonition difficult, if not impossible, to implement. And it shows in the vast majority of the JW's I have personally met online and in person.

Who or what is Babylon the great?

12. It is the worldly system of government, education, and religion we are currently living under. The same system in which Christ admonishes us to love our enemy and do good to those who hate us.

And who are God's "people" to whom this command is directed?

Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. ​

13. Those who keep all of the commandments of God, which includes the fourth, and have the faith of Jesus. Where does that leave you?

 

[Deeje]

1. I have points of agreement with the Mormons, Messianics, Evangelicals and other Christian sects. I also have unbelieving friends and friends from other faiths. Before you bring it up, having friends with a different belief system is not the same as being unequally yoked, as Christ exemplified.

I have friends with different belief systems too....I just don't fellowship with people whose way of life is condemned in the Bible. An unequal yoking would mean keeping company for the majority of your time with people whose conduct and thoughts do not align with my own. I believe that doing that would offend God unless your time is spent imparting the good news of the kingdom to appreciative ears.
Many who have led lives alienated from God have responded to the good news and have turned themselves around. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

Ephesians 2:1-5:
"Furthermore, God made you alive, though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 Yes, among them we all at one time conducted ourselves in harmony with the desires of our flesh, carrying out the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and we were naturally children of wrath just as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness you have been saved."

Many of us remember what it was like to have lived that life, and what it meant when someone helped us to get to know God and his Christ in a real way and change forever the way we live.

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

"The Lord" in this verse is Jehovah, because Paul says in verses 4-6 of the same chapter....
"4 We have this sort of confidence toward God through the Christ. 5 Not that we of ourselves are adequately qualified to consider that anything comes from us, but our being adequately qualified comes from God, 6 who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not of a written code, but of spirit; for the written code condemns to death, but the spirit makes alive."

Paul knew the difference between the "Lord" Jesus Christ and the LORD GOD Jehovah because only one of then was Almighty God. He also knew what the "spirit" of God was....and it wasn't Jesus.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6)
"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."

That ambiguous title "Lord" keeps creating confusion, which is the devil's main weapon against those who want to worship God in truth. It hides the truth from those who don't know "the only true God' (John 17:3) the one who is clearly separated from the one he sent forth.....his "apostle" and "holy servant" Jesus. (Hebrews 3:1; Acts 4:30)

2. I looked up the passage in the Greek and there is nothing to read into Paul's words other than what is written. The channel argument is extremely weak as we can all be channels of The Father. The problem is not with Paul's words, it is with your institutions method of operation.

They have programmed the minds of their members to only accept their teachings as truth, which is fine, but where the JW's err is by engendering condemnation in their members toward other Christians for not espousing JW beliefs.. And some of these groups are just as wrong for condemning the beliefs of your organization.

It is not we who condemn the beliefs of others...it is the beliefs themselves that condemn those who accept them. If that was not the case, then how does Jesus say to those who call him their "Lord" at the judgment....."I NEVER KNEW YOU! Get away from me you worker of lawlessness." (Matthew 7:21-23) They have obviously misunderstood what it means to be a true Christian.

I have to smile when I read things like...."programmed the minds" , which is a sinister way of saying we are taught as one united body. Making that sound like brain washing just suits the agenda of our opposers. If we are "programmed" then so were all the first Christians who were taught one truth, by one body of men whom God chose as Christ's apostles. They made sure that no other beliefs, apart from what Christ taught, crept into the congregations while they were alive and whilst scripture was being recorded. Later after the last apostle penned the final parts of what became the Christian scriptures, the foretold 'weeds' crept in and turned the truth into a lie, corrupting Christianity just as Judaism was corrupted by man-made traditions in replacing the word of God.

Jehovah has never used men in isolation to teach his people. They were all taught as a collective, one set beliefs...one set of rules, being bound to abide by those rules in a legal covenant, if they were broken, then punishment resulted as the law required. You think God changed his attitude and haphazardly chose random people to whom to reveal his truth? Seriously? If that was the case, then all those who are so taught would be united as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:10, but we all know that is not the case. Who else believes what you believe?

3. There is no trinity relationship mentioned in scripture. It is two persons, one of which had a spirit and human existence. Trinitarians count these existences as two separate persons (The Son and holy spirit), when they are actually the same person in different form! The identity of the holy spirit is clearly mentioned. There is no inference needed in 2 Co 3:17. It is a clear, unequivocal statement. The rest of the scriptures I posted merely support it.

Your interpretation of scripture supports it. But if no one else believes it....what then? Are you a congregation of one? Are you single-handedly going to preach "in all the inhabited earth" as Jesus commanded?
What is the "good news of the kingdom" that Jesus said would be preached in all the world? (Matthew 24:14) Are you preaching it?
If you like shopping in the celestial supermarket for your beliefs, what makes you think you can create your own recipe, using your own ingredients, and still call yourself Christ's disciple?
Do you have your very own religion?

4. I believe I'm reading it clearly. Jesus stated "....practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don't follow their example. For they don't practice what they teach (NLT). It is clear to me Christ here condemned their hypocritical attitude, not their disunited beliefs. In other passages, Christ's condemns their elitist, self-righteous attitude.

If you know the practices of the Pharisees in the synagogue you will understand what Christ said. He said that they were first and foremost, hypocrites of the worst order. (Matthew 23:13-33) Read his condemnation and see what he was talking about.

5. I realize you have to keep repeating what you've been programmed to say as a response for this verse without really addressing my rebuttal, But as I've demonstrated, disunited beliefs is not what 1 Co 1:10 is addressing. Paul preached against forming cliques (schisma) within the congregation based on social class.

Paul is talking about unity in the congregation....that includes unity on every level....the most important level being a unity of belief. There cannot be many versions of one truth.
Jesus didn't teach that we could believe whatever we liked as long as it was close enough, or that we could read into scripture merely what satisfied our own chosen viewpoint.

6. Once again taking the verse out of context. It states if "....anyone wanders away from "this" doctrine (singular)..."( 2 Jo 9) ..What particular doctrine is John referring to? Verse 8 tells us John is referring to the teaching of denying Christ came in a real body. The context is speaking of this one singular doctrine. Again this is within the congregation.

2 John 3,6, 7:
"Grace, mercy, and peace, which come from God the Father and from Jesus Christ—the Son of the Father—will continue to be with us who live in truth and love.

"6 Love means doing what God has commanded us, and he has commanded us to love one another, just as you heard from the beginning"

7 I say this because many deceivers have gone out into the world. They deny that Jesus Christ came in a real body. Such a person is a deceiver and an antichrist."

What is the "real body" in which Christ came? Those who believe that Jesus is God, can't believe that Christ came in a "real body" because they are shackled by the belief that he was both fully "God and fully man" when he walked the earth. Since the Almighty is immortal, then Jesus' body cannot be a real mortal body of flesh and blood. God cannot be killed by mere humans because God cannot die.

 

[Deeje]

7. So do I. I've posted and explained several passages in the Old and New Testaments identifying the glorified Christ as the holy spirit.

No you haven't. You have given your own interpretation based on who you perceive the "Lord" to be, and what you think his "spirit" is. That doesn't make it truth.

8. JW's are just another sect claiming what almost every Christian sect claims--they have the truth of God. Nothing wrong with this. What is wrong is the condemnation of others for not believing as you do.

As I said, there is no condemnation just because we happen to believe something different. The good news of God's kingdom was to be preached in all the world as one united message for all mankind. I do not see any sect in Christendom preaching like Jesus commanded the gospel to be preached. (Matthew 10:11-15)
The fragmented sects of Christendom, whilst claiming to be united, cannot agree much on anything...they do not even have a consensus as to what God's Kingdom actually is, so how can they preach about it? How many of Christendom's church member have ever called at your door to tell you about God's kingdom?

9. There is a difference between being separated by God and displaying feelings and actions of superiority over others, due to that separation. The 1st century religious leaders, JW's, and others exhibit the latter.

Confidence is not superiority. Confidence isn't hoping that what you believe is true...it is KNOWING that what you have been taught by those appointed to "feed" Christ's household are doing their job. (Matthew 24:45) It is seen in the conduct and results of those who live their Christianity 24/7. I don't see that in the churches. I see the breaking of God's laws anytime it is convenient to do so, with applied justification of course.

10. That separation of wheat and tares is yet future and its executed by Christ, not us. Christ indicated, in the meantime, let the wheat and tares grow together until He returns (Mat 13:29-30).

How do you think the separation is made? Jesus said only those "doing the will of the Father" will inherit everlasting life. I can see clearly who is doing the will of the Father. Are they perfect? Not any more perfect than Jesus' own apostles. We are all flawed by sin, but I see in my brotherhood those who try harder than anyone else I know to "do the will of the Father" in all things....unitedly in every nation.

Yes, we are to separate ourselves from the "world", but according to Christ's example in dining and mingling with the scribes and Pharisees, we should not separate ourselves from people simply because they hold different beliefs. Christ admonished the disciples for displaying an elitist attitude when stopping a different group from performing a miracle (Mar 9:38-40). He also called out the Pharisees' elitism through the parable of Pharisee and tax collector.

Mingling with the Pharisees was with what intent? Wasn't it to expose them as frauds and their teachings as "leaven"?
The Pharisees were hypocrites who wanted only the approval of men...they cared little about the approval of God. I see the same attitude in Christendom. They are so busy being "friends with the world" that they can't see that it makes them "enemies of God" (James 4:4)

10a. The bible is clear. There was no permanent separation between Jew and Greek in the 1st century church. These True Christians' motive to separate themselves was not derived from a desire to escape some system of worship. It was out of a desire to live! They would be killed if they stuck around.

It is true that no Christian wants to die....but they will give their lives rather than compromise on God's truth. The first Christians had to try to overcome strong feelings of exclusivity to accept those of other nations in love.

Acts 10:1-23 is Peter's encounter with the three visions of unclean animals, which he was told to "slaughter and eat". He was appalled and refused. It was an object lesson to reveal that God was now saying that no human was "unclean" in his eyes simply because of the religious system they were born into.) The conversion of the first gentile, Cornelius and his entire household, followed.
All humans now had the same choice to become disciples of God's son. That meant leaving all traces of false worship behind.

Acts 10:34-35:
"Then Peter replied, “I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism. In every nation he accepts those who fear him and do what is right."
In order to come to the true God, people of all nations had to come to him as their only God and obey his commands.

11. Read the text carefully. We are not to partake of her sins. Does not say anything about shunning all people who do not believe as we do. Yes, we are to keep our distance from those who may knowingly influence or encourage us to sin.

If you can't identify Babylon the great, you cannot remove yourself from her in obedience to God's command. (Revelation 18:4, 5) If we have not separated from her completely, we will share in the punishment that God will mete out to her in the near future.

But we are to still love them, do good to them, and pray for them (Mat 5:44). How can we do these things effectively, if we don't have any contact or relations with them? Like the Pharisees, the elitist attitude of most JW's creates a barrier that makes this admonition difficult, if not impossible, to implement. And it shows in the vast majority of the JW's I have personally met online and in person.

Apparently you don't know anything about JW's apart from what you have read from our opposers. This is evident by the ignorant things you say. What do you think JW's do every day of the week all around this globe? We bring the best news that there ever was to those who want to hear it. We do not shun anyone just because they believe differently to us. We preach to EVERYONE because this is what Jesus told us to do. (Matthew 28:19-20) Those who do not wish to listen to the news we bring, Jesus said that the peace we wish them will return to us and we will carry it to the next person. If the message is rejected, then we are to "shake the dust off our feet" and move on. (Matthew 10:11-15) If you have a problem with that, I suggest you take it up with Jesus.

12. It is the worldly system of government, education, and religion we are currently living under. The same system in which Christ admonishes us to love our enemy and do good to those who hate us.

It is more specific than that if you care to read John's revelation. Babylon the great is mourned by the political system (the kings of the earth) as well as the commercial system, (the merchants) so she is the third part in satan's other trinity. He uses three key elements to control this world (1 John 5:19)....corrupt politics, greedy commerce and false religion. So I believe that you are wrong in your assessment.

Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13. Those who keep all of the commandments of God, which includes the fourth, and have the faith of Jesus. Where does that leave you?

Very happy with my choices actually, as one who has come out of Babylon the great, I see things contrasted in a way those looking in from outside will never appreciate.
I have no doubts and my knowledge of scripture is sound, because it holds up under any scrutiny. I have become part of God's nation with the hope of being ruled by the ones chosen to assist Christ in his administration of the Kingdom benefits to obedient mankind. I see myself as part of the "great multitude" that John saw in his revelation. (Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14)

 

[Yoshua]

John 1:1 says there are two "gods" but only one is "the God" (ho theos). The Greek word "theos" is not a name but a description of the one who bears it.....satan is called the "theos" of this world. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) Jesus said that his own Father called human judges in Israel "gods". (John 10:34-36) There are "many gods and many lords" according to Paul. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) but to us "there is one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ".

Therefore, for you, Jesus is not a Mighty God?

Or it shows that Jesus is not "the God" and never was. He is the divine "son of God" but nowhere is Jesus ever called Almighty God. There is no "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" ever mentioned in the Bible....those terms were invented by an apostate church.

The holy spirit is not a person. You do understand that the trinity was not adopted into church doctrine until three hundred years after Jesus died? The Jews did not believe in a three in one godhead and since Jesus was Jewish, he never taught such a thing. Rather he taught that his Father was "the only true God" (John 17:3) and that we should "worship him alone" (Luke 4:8)

Do you mean that there is an apostasy in Christianity, the ministry of Jesus where He started with His disciples?

Did the Holy Spirit convict, grieve, and speak??

Thanks

 

[CG Didymus]

John 1:1 says there are two "gods" but only one is "the God" (ho theos). The Greek word "theos" is not a name but a description of the one who bears it.....satan is called the "theos" of this world. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) Jesus said that his own Father called human judges in Israel "gods". (John 10:34-36) There are "many gods and many lords" according to Paul. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) but to us "there is one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ".


Or it shows that Jesus is not "the God" and never was. He is the divine "son of God" but nowhere is Jesus ever called Almighty God. There is no "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" ever mentioned in the Bible....those terms were invented by an apostate church.

The holy spirit is not a person. You do understand that the trinity was not adopted into church doctrine until three hundred years after Jesus died? The Jews did not believe in a three in one godhead and since Jesus was Jewish, he never taught such a thing. Rather he taught that his Father was "the only true God" (John 17:3) and that we should "worship him alone" (Luke 4:8)

For those that like to research such things, what was that council like when they decided there was an equal but separate "God, the Spirit"? How many of the bishops were holding out and had a different opinion? Also, can a person say they are filled with the "Spirit of Jesus"? Or, if they say "I'm anointed with the power of God"? I wonder why people need to make that "power" or the "Spirit" a different entity? Just like someone could say "Oh he's got his father's spirit in him". That person means the son has the same qualities and values as his father. A person could also say "He and his father are one". Meaning they act and behave similar. So for me, I like it more how the Bahai's put it, that Jesus was like a lamp, and God is like the power station. The lamp is lit by the electricity coming from God. So that way Jesus can be the "light" of the world, and be "virtually" God, because he is filled and empowered by God. But, he doesn't have to be God himself. The poor Spirit is then demoted to being just the energy emanating from God and not a separate being that is God.

I know most Christian probably hate that because they need Jesus to be God. And if Jesus is God, then why not the Holy Spirit too. We can have one big happy Godhead family. But then the next step, I think I brought it up earlier, we have to decide what to do about Mary? Hmmm? She gave birth to Jesus... Jesus is God, so Mary must be the Mother of God? Then we have to make her "perfect". She must have been without the taint of "original sin". To do that she must have been "immaculately" conceived. Probably assumpted into heaven when she died. I would assume. And she must have a special place in heaven close to her Son. Who is not only her son, but also God himself. So we should be able to pray to her and get her to coax her Son/God into doing things for us? Now we have a real family. Father, Son, and Mary, the mother of God, and there pet, the Holy Spirit. I could see them up in heaven saying to the Spirit, "Fetch boy... go fill somebody and bring 'em heaven." And my Christian friends, both Catholic and Protestant, wonder why I'm confused about Christianity? It's not that simple and leaves a lot of things to question... even for Christians.

 

[Deeje]

Therefore, for you, Jesus is not a Mighty God?

You need to understand the term "theos" in Greek. It doesn't mean the same as the title "God" does in English. Greeks were polytheistic so there were many gods in their culture.
Trying to translate "theos" as relating only to the Monotheistic God of the Jews is difficult. Without the divine name (removed by superstitious Jews early on) "GOD" and "LORD" become titles for the Most High God YHWH. (Yahweh...Jehovah)

So to distinguish Jesus" from other "mighty ones" the Greeks had to add the definite article "ho" (THE) to describe "THE GOD" from other "mighty ones".

Do you mean that there is an apostasy in Christianity, the ministry of Jesus where He started with His disciples?

If you know scripture, (rather than Church doctrine) you will understand that Jesus and his apostles foretold that an apostasy (falling away from truthful Bible teachings) would take place in the same way it happened in Judaism. Man-made traditions replaced the word of God and Church authority replaced the Bible's authority over their members.
Jesus' parable of the "wheat and the weeds" tells us exactly how it happened and when it happened.

In Matthew 13:24-30, Jesus gave the parable, but when the disciples asked for an explanation he gave it to them explicitly.

"36 Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 andl the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen."

We see the characters in the parable clearly identified.....the sower, the field, the fine seed, the weeds, and their sower, the time of the harvest and who the reapers are.
In verse 25 it says how the seeds of the devil were sown...."While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left".

Notice that it was while men were "sleeping".....not physically sleeping but spiritually sleeping, so that the 'sowing' went virtually unnoticed. But history tells us that all those events took place after the death of Jesus and his apostles who were keeping the devil's activity under control until the writings of the NT were complete.

Paul confirms this is 2 Thessalonians 2:3-7: He said that the gathering of the chosen ones would not take place unless this apostasy happened first.
"Let no one seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do you not remember that, while I was yet with you, I used to tell you these things?
6 And so now you know the thing that acts as a restraint, with a view to his being revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way." (see also Matthew 7:21-23)

The activity of the apostates was already in evidence at the end of the first century, but once the apostles were gone, there was nothing to stop them. Men became thoroughly corrupt and Christianity right along with it. By the time of Constantine in the fourth century, the time and circumstances were right for a complete take-over in the form of a Universal religion enforced on the people by its pagan Emperor.....not because it was true religion, but because Constantine wanted to unite his divided empire. Roman Catholicism was introduced as the state religion and it pleased everyone because it had enough elements of Christianity and paganism for people to accept this compromise of a fusion religion. Constantine himself never became a Christian.
The rot set in and Christianity became nothing like the one Christ began. There is not even the vaguest resemblance between Roman Catholic practice and the Christianity introduced by the Christ. If you have grown up in the church, you will never know this.

Did the Holy Spirit convict, grieve, and speak??

Yes it did. It accomplished everything that the Father sent it to do. It is his holy spirit which serves to bring his will to fruition. It is the exercise of the greatest power in the universe.

Matthew 12:31-32: (see also Luke 12:8-12)
"31 “For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."

Did it never cause you to wonder how we can grieve the son of God but not the holy spirit? The holy spirit is what was used to prove that the actions of Jesus and his apostles were from God. To deny what was right in front of their noses was blasphemy. The Pharisees accused Jesus of gaining his power from the devil! (Matthew 12:22-30)
Like Moses, Jesus was a man....100% human, (though sinless) and as such he could not perform supernatural acts without the aid of God's spirit. Just as Pharaoh denied the power of God demonstrated through Moses among the Egyptians, so the Pharisees denied the power of God's spirit among the Jews through Jesus.

The holy spirit is NOT a person. It is not part of a godhead because this godhead is an invention of apostate men.

 

[Deeje]

For those that like to research such things, what was that council like when they decided there was an equal but separate "God, the Spirit"? How many of the bishops were holding out and had a different opinion? Also, can a person say they are filled with the "Spirit of Jesus"? Or, if they say "I'm anointed with the power of God"? I wonder why people need to make that "power" or the "Spirit" a different entity? Just like someone could say "Oh he's got his father's spirit in him". That person means the son has the same qualities and values as his father. A person could also say "He and his father are one". Meaning they act and behave similar. So for me, I like it more how the Bahai's put it, that Jesus was like a lamp, and God is like the power station. The lamp is lit by the electricity coming from God. So that way Jesus can be the "light" of the world, and be "virtually" God, because he is filled and empowered by God. But, he doesn't have to be God himself. The poor Spirit is then demoted to being just the energy emanating from God and not a separate being that is God.

I know most Christian probably hate that because they need Jesus to be God. And if Jesus is God, then why not the Holy Spirit too. We can have one big happy Godhead family. But then the next step, I think I brought it up earlier, we have to decide what to do about Mary? Hmmm? She gave birth to Jesus... Jesus is God, so Mary must be the Mother of God? Then we have to make her "perfect". She must have been without the taint of "original sin". To do that she must have been "immaculately" conceived. Probably assumpted into heaven when she died. I would assume. And she must have a special place in heaven close to her Son. Who is not only her son, but also God himself. So we should be able to pray to her and get her to coax her Son/God into doing things for us? Now we have a real family. Father, Son, and Mary, the mother of God, and there pet, the Holy Spirit. I could see them up in heaven saying to the Spirit, "Fetch boy... go fill somebody and bring 'em heaven." And my Christian friends, both Catholic and Protestant, wonder why I'm confused about Christianity? It's not that simple and leaves a lot of things to question... even for Christians.

You have a wonderful way of simply expressing the truth. It's Christendom's teachings that you find confusing...not Christianity.

 

[james2ko]

I have friends with different belief systems too....I just don't fellowship with people whose way of life is condemned in the Bible. An unequal yoking would mean keeping company for the majority of your time with people whose conduct and thoughts do not align with my own. I believe that doing that would offend God unless your time is spent imparting the good news of the kingdom to appreciative ears.

Many who have led lives alienated from God have responded to the good news and have turned themselves around. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

Ephesians 2:1-5:"Furthermore, God made you alive, though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 Yes, among them we all at one time conducted ourselves in harmony with the desires of our flesh, carrying out the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and we were naturally children of wrath just as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness you have been saved."

Many of us remember what it was like to have lived that life, and what it meant when someone helped us to get to know God and his Christ in a real way and change forever the way we live.

1 The greatest sermon you are ever going to preach is the one you live. Most of the JW's that I have encountered take the unequally yoked passage as a license to shun those who do not believe as they do. The sad part is, they don't even realize it. That’s no surprise, as the Pharisees didn't either.

"The Lord" in this verse is Jehovah, because Paul says in verses 4-6 of the same chapter....

2 I'm afraid that is another very poor exegesis. Just because Paul mentions God-theos 13 verses before, doesn't make the "Lord" in 2 Co 3:17 Jehovah. He also mentions Christ in vs 14-16 and identifies him as "Lord" [kurios] exclusively throughout both of his letters to the Corinthians.

Paul knew the difference between the "Lord" Jesus Christ and the LORD GOD Jehovah because only one of then was Almighty God. He also knew what the "spirit" of God was....and it wasn't Jesus.

3 This is a self-refuting statement. If Paul knew the difference between the "Lord" Jesus and God-theos (Jehovah), then he knew exactly who he was identifying as the spirit in 2 Co 3:17--the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him." That ambiguous title "Lord" keeps creating confusion, which is the devil's main weapon against those who want to worship God in truth. It hides the truth from those who don't know "the only true God' (John 17:3) the one who is clearly separated from the one he sent forth.....his "apostle" and "holy servant" Jesus. (Hebrews 3:1; Acts 4:30)

4 1 Co 8:5-6 serves to prove my points above. There is no confusion or ambiguity in the fact Paul always referred to Christ as "kurios" to the Corinthians. Thus 2 Cor 3:17 is clearly referring to Christ as the spirit.

It is not we who condemn the beliefs of others...it is the beliefs themselves that condemn those who accept them. If that was not the case, then how does Jesus say to those who call him their "Lord" at the judgment....."I NEVER KNEW YOU! Get away from me you worker of lawlessness." (Matthew 7:21-23) They have obviously misunderstood what it means to be a true Christian.

5 The context indicates Jesus was referring to false prophets deliberately and knowingly preaching falsehoods (Mat 7:15) . This doesn't apply to anyone that has been sovereignly blinded by God (Joh 12:40). Do you believe God will hold anyone He blinded responsible for misunderstanding what it means to be a true Christian? Please save the bandwidth and spare me the sermon, just answer the question.

I have to smile when I read things like...."programmed the minds" , which is a sinister way of saying we are taught as one united body. Making that sound like brain washing just suits the agenda of our opposers. If we are "programmed" then so were all the first Christians who were taught one truth, by one body of men whom God chose as Christ's apostles.They made sure that no other beliefs, apart from what Christ taught, crept into the congregations while they were alive and whilst scripture was being recorded. Later after the last apostle penned the final parts of what became the Christian scriptures, the foretold 'weeds' crept in and turned the truth into a lie, corrupting Christianity just as Judaism was corrupted by man-made traditions in replacing the word of God.

5a In Romans 14, Paul allows the varying beliefs, within the congregation, you claim did not exist :

Rom 14:5-6 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

Rom 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.​

Although Paul is referring to those strong and weak in the faith (vs 1), Christendom is convinced in their own mind, they are doing the godly thing. Perhaps they are weak in the faith. Yet you judge and show contempt toward them.

Jehovah has never used men in isolation to teach his people. They were all taught as a collective, one set beliefs...one set of rules, being bound to abide by those rules in a legal covenant, if they were broken, then punishment resulted as the law required. You think God changed his attitude and haphazardly chose random people to whom to reveal his truth? Seriously? If that was the case, then all those who are so taught would be united as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1:10, but we all know that is not the case. Who else believes what you believe?

6. Spoken like a true 21st century Pharisee overlooking one of the weightier matters of the law, like mercy, and dictating who the unsearchable God (Rom 11:33) should and should not be working with.

Your interpretation of scripture supports it. But if no one else believes it....what then? Are you a congregation of one? Are you single-handedly going to preach "in all the inhabited earth" as Jesus commanded? What is the "good news of the kingdom" that Jesus said would be preached in all the world? (Matthew 24:14) Are you preaching it?

7 I'm single-handedly preaching to you and anyone else who reads my posts, who happen to be from all different parts of the inhabited earth. And yes I do embrace the gospel of the kingdom. Discussing all aspects of the kingdom happens to be one of my favorite topics, as JW’s on this forum have surprisingly discovered-- the hard way.

If you like shopping in the celestial supermarket for your beliefs, what makes you think you can create your own recipe, using your own ingredients, and still call yourself Christ's disciple

8 Paul said to prove all things and hold fast to what is good. What Paul means is that some meat (doctrines) in the earthly (not celestial) supermarket may be spoiled and if it is found to be bad after inspection, discard it. I'd much rather do this than be force to inculcate doctrines that I believe are not inline with scripture. If I do this, scripture says I would be sinning (Rom 14:5,23)!! I'm not creating my own recipe. God is allowing me to discover the ones that already exist in His Word.

Do you have your very own religion?

8a. Do I need one other than true Christianity?

If you know the practices of the Pharisees in the synagogue you will understand what Christ said. He said that they were first and foremost, hypocrites of the worst order. (Matthew 23:13-33) Read his condemnation and see what he was talking about.

9 You are emphasizing to me what I've been trying to tell you, that Christ addressed their hypocrisy not their disunity.. I'm glad it’s finally beginning to sink in.

Paul is talking about unity in the congregation....that includes unity on every level....the most important level being a unity of belief. There cannot be many versions of one truth. Jesus didn't teach that we could believe whatever we liked as long as it was close enough, or that we could read into scripture merely what satisfied our own chosen viewpoint.

10 Jesus was tolerant of differing Torah interpretations, as He exemplified with the religious leaders of His day and His disciples when they tried to stop another “group” from performing miracles in Christ’s name. What He did not tolerate is an attitude of superiority, elitism, and hypocrisy.

2 John 3,6, 7:"Grace, mercy, and peace, which come from God the Father and from Jesus Christ—the Son of the Father—will continue to be with us who live in truth and love."6 Love means doing what God has commanded us, and he has commanded us to love one another, just as you heard from the beginning"

11. Scripture also commands us not to condemn others for having different beliefs, love our enemies, and do good to those who hate us. Christian qualities absent in most JW’s I have personally encountered.

7 I say this because many deceivers have gone out into the world. They deny that Jesus Christ came in a real body. Such a person is a deceiver and an antichrist."

What is the "real body" in which Christ came? Those who believe that Jesus is God, can't believe that Christ came in a "real body" because they are shackled by the belief that he was both fully "God and fully man" when he walked the earth. Since the Almighty is immortal, then Jesus' body cannot be a real mortal body of flesh and blood. God cannot be killed by mere humans because God cannot die.

12 Seems like you are elaborating on the point I used to refute yours. Thanks..