Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

[Deeje]

Yes, Jesus fulfills many different roles - the most important of which is being the Savior of the world and the Son of God.

Yes indeed, but not the savior of all by any means. Only those who come to him in truth, "doing the will of the Father" will be acceptable to him. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Many accounts are given (and I quoted a few of them earlier) of people conversing, and seeing the physical God - seeing his finger, his feet, etc.

Jesus said the opposite. At John 5:37 we read..."And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen" also at John 1:18 it says, "No one has ever seen God" so how can you say that humans can see God? Angelic representatives often spoke in the first person conveying God's words to his earthly servants, but "no man can see [God] and yet live" is what God told Moses. (Exodus 33:20) God is not a physical being because he dwells in an immaterial realm.

John also tells us that "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Neither God nor his son are material beings.

You believe that people are moral? The natural man is an enemy of God -

Fallen man is the imperfect reflection of God. We fall short because of sin...but Adam and his wife were created perfect, without defect. It was the misuse of their free will that was their undoing.

we do not have God's perfect character or morals, we do have His physical image - hands/feet etc.

We have a moral capacity, which we do not see in the animal kingdom. This moral capacity is also seen in the angels, who also possess free will. Just because we have a moral capacity, doesn't mean that we will abide by it. We can choose to go against it but consequences will result. That is why we have laws with penalties. If we had no capacity to make wrong choices, then why would there be penalties in the first place? Life was meant to last forever and all Adam and his wife had to do was obey one simple command and they would never have seen death. They were talked into disobedience by someone who had already gone down that track....and the consequences were experienced, just as God had stated. (Genesis 2:17; 3:22-24)

Jesus' human body was not disposed of - "spirit hath not flesh as ye see me have", his perfect body was one of the glories of his resurrection.

In fulfillment of prophesy, Christ's body was sacrificed, given on mankind's behalf...he didn't take it back...why would he? He was "raised in the spirit", not the flesh.
He materialized a human body just as other spirit beings had done in the past to demonstrate the fact that he was alive. These materialized spirits ate and drank like any other mortal, but they 'disappeared' when their job was done. So did Jesus.
Jews were forbidden to commune with spirits, because of what happened in Noah's day. Demons could no longer materialize but they could still communicate with humans through spiritism. So angels and Jesus materializing to communicate with God's earthly servants kept the Jews obedient to God's laws. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ are not some imaginary, non-material / non-tangible entities. They are real, physical beings that you can talk with, walk with etc.

Sorry, but that is not what the Bible teaches. Jesus was a real tangible being because his role as Messiah and redeemer made that necessary. He had to come to earth as a mortal human to ransom the human race. But after his resurrection he was no longer human. The apostle Peter said that Jesus was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit". (1 Pet 3:18) How does a body of flesh go to heaven?

Love is a feeling. The most important things to rely on are feelings... Are you afraid of your feelings?

Not at all, but I subscribe to the view that "feelings are wonderful friends, but terrible masters".

Love is not just a feeling at all. The Greeks had four words that can be translated "love" but they mean so much more than our inadequate word.
True love is based on so much more than mere transient feelings that can change overnight.

Real love is "agape", which is a love based on principle, not feelings. This love is stronger than feelings because we can even love an enemy with this love.

"Eros" (romantic love) is based on feelings. But this Greek work is not found once in the NT.

"Storge'" is the love family members have for each other...the blood ties that are "thicker than water".

"Philea" is brotherly love...the kind we feel for our brothers in the faith. The kind Jesus felt for his apostles.

The Bible's counsel is so much deeper when we explore the original meanings of words.

 

[Deeje]

Hey there Deeje, Some quotes about the "Spirit" are from the Jewish side of the Bible. Why didn't Jews ever think of the "Spirit" as an equal but separate part of a Godhead? Plus, they never thought of the Messiah as "God" either. And because of the various meetings held by early Christians, even they had to hammer out a few things about who and what was going on. After deciding that God must be a Trinity, that was the only thing that made sense, they had to figure out what to do about Mary? Since she was the mother of Jesus, and since Jesus is God, then she must be the Mother of God. But no way could she be tainted by "original sin" so maybe, she was "immaculately" conceived? Must be, there is no other way to explain it.

Ah, you have great insight. All of the above is true. Yet trinitarians stick to that doctrine like their life depends upon it...I wonder who told them that?

Maybe they should

Because of the road the early Church did go down, I have to question all those decisions they made, including making God a trinity. Even a duality doesn't work for me, unless you make it a good vs. evil duality.

By a "duality" I was simply pointing out that some of the scriptures used to "prove" the trinity invariably leave out the third member. I wonder how they can have a trinity without the third person? He is MIA in almost every case.

But there is a trinity I like... the one Hindu's have... Brahma at the top, with Vishnu and Shiva under him and they delegate things out to all the lessor gods. But I don't think they have a separate "Spirit of Brahma" or a "Son of Brahma" in their mix of gods do they? And yet, they are called "poly-theistic" and Christians aren't? Or maybe they are, I suppose some Jews might think the Trinity is a little toward the poly-theistic side.

The trinities in other faiths at least have equality and are called by name rather than by familial terms that do not fit a triune being.
A Father always exists before his son and a son is never the same age as his father. A father is always responsible for the existence of his son since he is the "begetter".

The only way that trinitarians can dodge accusations of being polytheistic is to cram their three gods into one head. Funny how the Jews never worshipped or even knew about this three headed god even when one of the heads was walking around teaching them. If it was such an important truth, why didn't he ever come right out and say it?

Thanks Deeje for you answers in your other posts and for not ducking the tough questions. Hopefully you'll get some more people responding.

There is only one truth and its in the Bible for all to see. God doesn't hide it from anyone but unfortunately, Christendom does. I hope it is becoming obvious to at least some.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hey Deeje, Congratulations, you've made it to page 2. When I was first taught about Jesus, I was only shown a few verses from the Hebrew Scriptures, which were then interpreted for me. Like making man in "our" image and that "Elohim" is a plural word. But the God of the Jews really does sound like one and only one entity. And if He was a three-part Godhead, then why not say so? Even in the NT, there is enough room to wonder, "is Jesus God or not?" But the Spirit? If I say "the Spirit of God came I upon me and I began to prophecy"? What I'm meaning is that God touched me and revealed something to me and now I'm sharing it. I would assume that is kind of how the Jews might see it. With verses that say "descending like a dove" and the one about "tongues of fire" and the other one about the "comforter", I can see how the early Christians came up with the idea. But definitely, if the Holy Spirit is God then he, she or it, is for sure MIA.

 

[Deeje]

Hey Deeje, Congratulations, you've made it to page 2. When I was first taught about Jesus, I was only shown a few verses from the Hebrew Scriptures, which were then interpreted for me. Like making man in "our" image and that "Elohim" is a plural word.

Me too. Making one God into a threesome was always an impossible mathematical equation for me. 1+1+1 = 3 not 1.

If we are made in God's image, then why is multiple personality disorder considered an illness?

But the God of the Jews really does sound like one and only one entity. And if He was a three-part Godhead, then why not say so? Even in the NT, there is enough room to wonder, "is Jesus God or not?"

I guess that is the strongest argument against the trinity. If it was a clear Bible teaching, there would be no discussion necessary. If this doctrine is true, then what is it based on if not a direct statement? Supposition and deduction are not the foundations of truth. There is not one direct statement.

But the Spirit? If I say "the Spirit of God came I upon me and I began to prophecy"? What I'm meaning is that God touched me and revealed something to me and now I'm sharing it. I would assume that is kind of how the Jews might see it. With verses that say "descending like a dove" and the one about "tongues of fire" and the other one about the "comforter", I can see how the early Christians came up with the idea. But definitely, if the Holy Spirit is God then he, she or it, is for sure MIA.

There was one incident in the OT that clinched it for me. When Moses was carrying a heavy load trying to cope with the entire nation of Israel, he was getting exhausted, so his father-in-law suggest delegating some of the responsibility onto spiritually qualified men. 70 were selected.

"24 So Moses went out and spoke the words of Jehovah to the people. And he gathered 70 men from the elders of the people and had them stand around the tent. 25 Then Jehovah came down in a cloud and spoke to him and took away some of the spirit that was on him and put it on each of the 70 elders. And as soon as the spirit settled down on them, they began to behave as prophets...." (full account in Numbers 11:10-25)

How do you take away some of a person and spread it out between 70 men?

 

[james2ko]

In so many threads discussing the trinity, one of the members seems to be a little overlooked, so I thought it might be fruitful to discuss the holy spirit as "God".

Who or what is God's holy Spirit?

Is the holy spirit a person?

In so many scriptures where Jesus is seen "at the right hand of God", can anyone provide a scripture that says the holy spirit is ever seen at his left hand?

If both the Father and son have personal names as well as titles, can anyone provide a personal name for the holy spirit?

Are the scriptures written to support the idea that the holy spirit is the third part of the triune godhead?

Is the holy spirit ever called "God"?

We see in the scriptures that there is "God the Father" but can anyone provide a reference to "God the Son"? or "God the Holy Spirit"?

I've been prayerfully studying the topic of the holy spirit's identity for quite some time. Much more praying and studying to do. So far, it seems as though the holy spirit is the "glorified" Christ Himself. The pre-incarnate Christ was the Father's holy spirit in the OT (Gen 1:2; Isa 63:9-10).

The resurrected Christ is identified as the power of God (1 Co 1:24) in the NT. Thus reclaiming His title as the holy spirit (2 Co 3:17; 1 Co 15:45), with much more authority and power. As a human, Christ forfeited his supernatural privileges as a spirit being. He "had" to be given the holy spirit (power) from its progenitor--The Father (Joh 1:32) .

All three entities (The Father, The Son, and Holy Spirit) or existences encompass the two personalities (The Father and Christ) who play a vital role in our salvation. It's not Trinitarianism and somewhat broader than Binitarianism. It's more like Tribinitarianism.

 

[JesusBeliever]

I've been prayerfully studying the topic of the holy spirit's identity for quite some time. Much more praying and studying to do. So far, it seems as though the holy spirit is the "glorified" Christ Himself. The pre-incarnate Christ was the Father's holy spirit in the OT (Gen 1:2; Isa 63:9-10).

The resurrected Christ is identified as the power of God (1 Cor 1:24) in the NT. Thus reclaiming His title as the holy spirit (2 Co 3:17; 1 Co 15:45), with much more authority and power. As a human, Christ forfeited his supernatural privileges as a spirit being. He "had" to be given the holy spirit (power) from its progenitor--The Father (Joh 1:32) .

All three entities (The Father, The Son, and Holy Spirit) or existences encompass the two personalities (The Father and Christ) who play a vital role in our salvation. It's not Trinitarianism and somewhat broader than Binitarianism. It's more like Tribinitarianism.

Hi James, I just wanted to quote your post and repost the Scriptures you posted so that they pop up when hovered over, for quick reference:
Genesis 1:2
Isaiah 63:9-10
1 Corinthians 1:24
2 Corinthians 3:17
1 Corinthians 15:45
John 1:32

P.S. Thanks for sharing 2 Corinthians 3:17! That's a biggy! Goes to show that there's so many treasures in Scripture that we often don't see until we see it!

 

[james2ko]

I've been prayerfully studying the topic of the holy spirit's identity for quite some time. Much more praying and studying to do. So far, it seems as though the holy spirit is the "glorified" Christ Himself. The pre-incarnate Christ was the Father's holy spirit in the OT (Gen 1:2; Isa 63:9-10).

The resurrected Christ is identified as the power of God (1 Co 1:24) in the NT. Thus reclaiming His title as the holy spirit (2 Co 3:17; 1 Co 15:45), with much more authority and power. As a human, Christ forfeited his supernatural privileges as a spirit being. He "had" to be given the holy spirit (power) from its progenitor--The Father (Joh 1:32) .

All three entities (The Father, The Son, and Holy Spirit) or existences encompass the two personalities (The Father and Christ) who play a vital role in our salvation. It's not Trinitarianism and somewhat broader than Binitarianism. It's more like Tribinitarianism.

Hi James, I just wanted to quote your post and repost the Scriptures you posted so that they pop up when hovered over, for quick reference:
Genesis 1:2
Isaiah 63:9-10
1 Corinthians 1:24
2 Corinthians 3:17
1 Corinthians 15:45
John 1:32

P.S. Thanks for sharing 2 Corinthians 3:17! That's a biggy! Goes to show that there's so many treasures in Scripture that we often don't see until we see it!

I read it many times before and it never dawned on me until recently. Ok. Now you must show me something. How do you perform the scripture hover trick?

 

[james2ko]

Just figured it out. Thanks..

 

[savagewind]

Hi James, I just wanted to quote your post and repost the Scriptures you posted so that they pop up when hovered over, for quick reference:
Genesis 1:2
Isaiah 63:9-10
1 Corinthians 1:24
2 Corinthians 3:17
1 Corinthians 15:45
John 1:32

P.S. Thanks for sharing 2 Corinthians 3:17! That's a biggy! Goes to show that there's so many treasures in Scripture that we often don't see until we see it!

From the New World Translation Bible
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 17 Now Jehovah* is the Spirit,+ and where the spirit of Jehovah* is, there is freedom.+ 18 And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah,* are transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another,* exactly as it is done by Jehovah* the Spirit.*+
Compare http://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-17.htm

NWT Luke 2:11 For today there was born to you in David’s city+ a savior,+ who is Christ the Lord.+
NWT Colossians 3:17 Whatever it is that you do in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him.+
NWT Philippians 2:9-11 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position+ and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,+ 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground+— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord+ to the glory of God the Father.
NWT 1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper+ and deep respect.+
NWT Revelation 17:14 These will battle with the Lamb,+ but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings,+ the Lamb will conquer them.+ Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”+
NWT 1 Corinthians 8:6 there is actually to us one God,+ the Father,+ from whom all things are and we for him;+ and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are+ and we through him.
NWT 2 Corinthians 4:5 For we are preaching, not about ourselves, but about Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake.

 

[james2ko]

From the New World Translation Bible
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 17 Now Jehovah* is the Spirit,+ and where the spirit of Jehovah* is, there is freedom.+ 18 And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah,* are transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another,* exactly as it is done by Jehovah* the Spirit.*+
Compare http://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-17.htm

NWT Luke 2:11 For today there was born to you in David’s city+ a savior,+ who is Christ the Lord.+
NWT Colossians 3:17 Whatever it is that you do in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him.+
NWT Philippians 2:9-11 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position+ and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,+ 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground+— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord+ to the glory of God the Father.
NWT 1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper+ and deep respect.+
NWT Revelation 17:14 These will battle with the Lamb,+ but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings,+ the Lamb will conquer them.+ Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”+
NWT 1 Corinthians 8:6 there is actually to us one God,+ the Father,+ from whom all things are and we for him;+ and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are+ and we through him.
NWT 2 Corinthians 4:5 For we are preaching, not about ourselves, but about Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake.

Please share your point..

 

[JesusBeliever]

From the New World Translation Bible
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 17 Now Jehovah* is the Spirit,+ and where the spirit of Jehovah* is, there is freedom.+ 18 And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah,* are transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another,* exactly as it is done by Jehovah* the Spirit.*+
Compare http://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-17.htm

NWT Luke 2:11 For today there was born to you in David’s city+ a savior,+ who is Christ the Lord.+
NWT Colossians 3:17 Whatever it is that you do in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him.+
NWT Philippians 2:9-11 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position+ and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,+ 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground+— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord+ to the glory of God the Father.
NWT 1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper+ and deep respect.+
NWT Revelation 17:14 These will battle with the Lamb,+ but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings,+ the Lamb will conquer them.+ Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”+
NWT 1 Corinthians 8:6 there is actually to us one God,+ the Father,+ from whom all things are and we for him;+ and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are+ and we through him.
NWT 2 Corinthians 4:5 For we are preaching, not about ourselves, but about Jesus Christ as Lord and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake.

Hi Savagewind,
I take issue with the Jehovah's Witness Bible (NWT) seeing that they have inserted Jehovah in the New Testament where they think it should fit. I can accept the merits of doing this with the Old Testament seeing that the original Hebrew uses Jehovah and Lord. But I see no justification for doing this with the New Testament seeing that it uses the Greek word KURIOS which translates to LORD.

"Now G1161  the G3588  Lord G2962  is G2076  that Spirit: G4151  and G1161  where G3757  the G3588  Spirit G4151  of the Lord G2962  is, there G1563  is liberty. G1657 " 2 Corinthians 3:17

G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os

From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.

Total KJV occurrences: 748

 

[savagewind]

Please share your point..

They say 2 Corinthians 3:17 is Jehovah but the rest say it is Jesus.

The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses are making the meaning of 2 Cor 3:17 discordant with Luke 2:11; Col 3:17; Phil 2:9; 1 Peter 3:5; 1 Cor 8:6; 2 Cor 4:5 and Rev 17:14.

They are propagating discord. That's a bad thing fyi.

 

[Deeje]

I take issue with the Jehovah's Witness Bible (NWT) seeing that they have inserted Jehovah in the New Testament where they think it should fit. I can accept the merits of doing this with the Old Testament seeing that the original Hebrew uses Jehovah and Lord. But I see no justification for doing this with the New Testament seeing that it uses the Greek word KURIOS which translates to LORD.

I'm sorry but where the NT writers quoted OT scripture and the Divine Name was contained in the original Hebrew text quoted, are you saying that it is improper to restore it to where it originally was? Do you know why the Divine Name was removed from scripture in the first place? Men did that, not God. They had no authorization from the Bible's author to remove his name from his own work.

It belongs in the NT just as it belongs in the OT, unless you think we worship a different God?
Do you have a problem with God's name?

"Now G1161  the G3588  Lord G2962  is G2076  that Spirit: G4151  and G1161  where G3757  the G3588  Spirit G4151  of the Lord G2962  is, there G1563  is liberty. G1657 " 2 Corinthians 3:17

G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os

From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.

Total KJV occurrences: 748

Are you actually aware of what the titles "Lord" and "God" mean in Greek? Do you see in your quote there? Kyrios is a title like "Mr" or "Sir". It is not a name for God, but a title denoting respect for a person of high station or supreme authority.
Can a "Mr" or a "Sir" also have a personal name? Do you see that a title does not constitute a name and a title can be applied along with a name. "The Lord Jehovah" (Ezek 2:4 ASV) is as valid as "the Lord Jesus Christ", (1 Cor 1:3) but both, even though they carry the same respectful form of address, are not equals. Just as a military commander can be a Captain, a Lieutenant, or a General and still all be correctly addressed by the same title..."Sir". Do you understand this?

2 Corinthians 3:12-18, in context reads.....
"Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. 14 But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.
16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image." (NLT)

This is a classic example of why removing God's name from the Bible causes confusion.

Who is "the Lord" in these verses? Who did Paul acknowledge was his God?

1 Corinthians 8:5, 6:
"There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords. 6 But for us, There is one God, the Father,
by whom all things were created, and for whom we live. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created, and through whom we live."

There is ONE GOD acknowledged by the apostles....and it isn't Jesus Christ.
Speaking about Moses' day, in 2 Cor 3:12-18, Paul was speaking about the God of the Jews...Yahweh, not Jesus. Yahweh is a spirit, and his holy spirit is the administration of his power. It isn't Jesus Christ and it isn't God himself. The entirety of scripture tells us exactly what God's spirit is and what he does with it to accomplish his will.

This whole argument is based on a false premise....as are the arguments in the video. If you want to swallow that nonsense, that is up to you.
But would you like to do a comparison with the KJV and let me show you the faults in translation there? I assume that you think the church didn't corrupt the teachings of Jesus Christ over 1500 centuries or tamper with his word themselves when translating it to suit the beliefs that they adopted after Jesus died? He foretold that they would fall away to apostasy, and so did his apostles. Why do you think it didn't happen?

 

[james2ko]

They say 2 Corinthians 3:17 is Jehovah but the rest say it is Jesus.

I thought that was your point but assuming can get one in trouble. Although kurios (Lord) is also used to reference the Father in the book of Revelation. That may have simply been John's writing style, but I do not believe Jehovah is whom Paul had in focus in 2 co 3:17. There are several passages indicating Christ as the holy spirit. You also have Isaiah referring to the angel of His (The Father's) presence--which JW's believe is the pre-incarnate Christ-- as His (The Father's) holy spirit. I'll let deeje clear the air.

 

[james2ko]

I'm sorry but where the NT writers quoted OT scripture and the Divine Name was contained in the original Hebrew text quoted, are you saying that it is improper to restore it to where it originally was? Do you know why the Divine Name was removed from scripture in the first place? Men did that, not God. They had no authorization from the Bible's author to remove his name from his own work.

It belongs in the NT just as it belongs in the OT, unless you think we worship a different God?
Do you have a problem with God's name?



Are you actually aware of what the titles "Lord" and "God" mean in Greek? Do you see in your quote there? Kyrios is a title like "Mr" or "Sir". It is not a name for God, but a title denoting respect for a person of high station or supreme authority.
Can a "Mr" or a "Sir" also have a personal name? Do you see that a title does not constitute a name and a title can be applied along with a name. "The Lord Jehovah" (Ezek 2:4 ASV) is as valid as "the Lord Jesus Christ", (1 Cor 1:3) but both, even though they carry the same respectful form of address, are not equals. Just as a military commander can be a Captain, a Lieutenant, or a General and still all be correctly addressed by the same title..."Sir". Do you understand this?

2 Corinthians 3:12-18, in context reads.....
"Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. 14 But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.
16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image." (NLT)

This is a classic example of why removing God's name from the Bible causes confusion.

Who is "the Lord" in these verses? Who did Paul acknowledge was his God?

1 Corinthians 8:5, 6:
"There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords. 6 But for us, There is one God, the Father,
by whom all things were created, and for whom we live. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created, and through whom we live."

There is ONE GOD acknowledged by the apostles....and it isn't Jesus Christ.
Speaking about Moses' day, in 2 Cor 3:12-18, Paul was speaking about the God of the Jews...Yahweh, not Jesus. Yahweh is a spirit, and his holy spirit is the administration of his power. It isn't Jesus Christ and it isn't God himself. The entirety of scripture tells us exactly what God's spirit is and what he does with it to accomplish his will.

This whole argument is based on a false premise....as are the arguments in the video. If you want to swallow that nonsense, that is up to you.
But would you like to do a comparison with the KJV and let me show you the faults in translation there? I assume that you think the church didn't corrupt the teachings of Jesus Christ over 1500 centuries or tamper with his word themselves when translating it to suit the beliefs that they adopted after Jesus died? He foretold that they would fall away to apostasy, and so did his apostles. Why do you think it didn't happen?

Although I agree with you to a degree about church corruption, lets focus on the text and context. The fact Paul separately identified Jehovah as "God" and Christ as "kurios" in the first letter to the Corinthians, indicates to me, in order to avoid confusing the Corinthians, Paul kept their identity consistent in the second letter. Thus Paul's reference to Christ as "kurios" not Jehovah in 2 Co 3:17.

 

[Deeje]

I thought that was your point but assuming can get one in trouble. Although kurios (Lord) is also used to reference the Father in the book of Revelation. That may have simply been John's writing style, but I do not believe Jehovah is whom Paul had in focus in 2 co 3:17. There are several passages indicating Christ as the holy spirit. You also have Isaiah referring to the angel of His (The Father's) presence--which JW's believe is the pre-incarnate Christ-- as His (The Father's) holy spirit. I'll let deeje clear the air.

2 Corinthians 3:17 alludes to the spirit of Jehovah. Paul is referring back to the days of Moses when he had to wear a veil because of the brightness that shone in his face after communing with God on the mountain. Israel were afraid of this so they asked him to cover his face.
Isaiah 61 :1 reads....
"The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners"
Jesus said that this prophesy was fulfilled in him. So Jesus is a recipient of Jehovah's spirit. He is not the spirit of Jehovah as in God's holy spirit. The word "spirit" is used in different ways in the Bible.

Was the pre-human Jesus used by God as the guiding angel for Israel in the wilderness?
Exodus 23:20:
“I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared."
It doesn't specifically say so, but it most definitely could have been either Michael or Gabriel....the only two angels mentioned in Scripture by name.

 

[savagewind]

Just ask yourselves how many lords should a person serve.

 

[JesusBeliever]

I'm sorry but where the NT writers quoted OT scripture and the Divine Name was contained in the original Hebrew text quoted, are you saying that it is improper to restore it to where it originally was?

Hi Deeje, I did mention earlier that I had no problem with it being restored to where it originally was, but no one can claim to be doing that in the NT. Instead they are putting it where they think it should go.

Do you know why the Divine Name was removed from scripture in the first place? Men did that, not God. They had no authorization from the Bible's author to remove his name from his own work. It belongs in the NT just as it belongs in the OT, unless you think we worship a different God?
Do you have a problem with God's name?

Not at all. I believe that Jesus (aka Yahushua/Yeshua/Yehoshuah) is the name of God. The same God who revealed Himself as Jehovah (aka Yahweh/Yehowah) to Moses, and as El Shaddai to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob (Exodus 6:3). If the following verses (from the NWT) had said Jehovah instead of Jesus I would call on the name of Jehovah, but it doesn't. The name we were given under the New Covenant was Jesus:

They stood Peter and John in their midst and began to question them: “By what power or in whose name did you do this?” 8 Then Peter, filled with holy spirit,+ said to them:“Rulers of the people and elders, 9 if we are being examined today about a good deed to a crippled man,+ and you want to know who made this man well, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·reneʹ,+ whom you executed on a stake+ but whom God raised up from the dead,+ by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you. 11 This is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the chief cornerstone.’*+ 12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name+ under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.” Acts 4:10-12 NWT

Are you actually aware of what the titles "Lord" and "God" mean in Greek? Do you see in your quote there? Kyrios is a title like "Mr" or "Sir". It is not a name for God, but a title denoting respect for a person of high station or supreme authority.
Can a "Mr" or a "Sir" also have a personal name? Do you see that a title does not constitute a name and a title can be applied along with a name. "The Lord Jehovah" (Ezek 2:4 ASV) is as valid as "the Lord Jesus Christ", (1 Cor 1:3) but both, even though they carry the same respectful form of address, are not equals. Just as a military commander can be a Captain, a Lieutenant, or a General and still all be correctly addressed by the same title..."Sir". Do you understand this?

Yes I'm well aware of it. I've studied both with Jehovah's Witnesses as well as on my own the Jehovah's Witnesses material, Bible and founding.

2 Corinthians 3:12-18, in context reads.....

"Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. 14 But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15 Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.
16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image." (NLT)

This is a classic example of why removing God's name from the Bible causes confusion.

Who is "the Lord" in these verses? Who did Paul acknowledge was his God?

1 Corinthians 8:5, 6:
"There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords. 6 But for us, There is one God, the Father,
by whom all things were created, and for whom we live. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created, and through whom we live."

There is ONE GOD acknowledged by the apostles....and it isn't Jesus Christ.
Speaking about Moses' day, in 2 Cor 3:12-18, Paul was speaking about the God of the Jews...Yahweh, not Jesus. Yahweh is a spirit, and his holy spirit is the administration of his power. It isn't Jesus Christ and it isn't God himself. The entirety of scripture tells us exactly what God's spirit is and what he does with it to accomplish his will.

We'll have to agree to disagree because I'm not sure there is anything we can say to each other that will change each others minds. In fact I wouldn't have even brought it up were it not for savagewind quoting from the NWT. Many people don't know just how different it is to most other Bibles and I think they have a right to know upfront so that they can compare and decide for themselves. But if in the end, they decide it's the Translation for them, that's their prerogative.

This whole argument is based on a false premise....as are the arguments in the video. If you want to swallow that nonsense, that is up to you.
But would you like to do a comparison with the KJV and let me show you the faults in translation there? I assume that you think the church didn't corrupt the teachings of Jesus Christ over 1500 centuries or tamper with his word themselves when translating it to suit the beliefs that they adopted after Jesus died? He foretold that they would fall away to apostasy, and so did his apostles. Why do you think it didn't happen?

I am well aware of the many translation faults in the KJV but I'm able to check the original Hebrew & Greek with the KJV + Strongs. This isn't the only way I check but it is the main way. And yes I do believe the apostasy happened but after much study of the Jehovah's Witnesses, their material, Bible Translation and founding I have come to believe that they are part of that apostasy. I'm sorry if this offends you but I sincerely do.

 

[james2ko]

Isaiah 61 :1 reads..."The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners" Jesus said that this prophesy was fulfilled in him. So Jesus is a recipient of Jehovah's spirit. He is not the spirit of Jehovah as in God's holy spirit. The word "spirit" is used in different ways in the Bible.

Jesus was speaking as a human. Notice I put in bold and underlined the term "glorified" in post 25. It was the glorified Christ, in His pre-incarnate and post resurrection form, who was Jehovah's holy spirit. As a human, Christ had to be given the holy spirit by the progenitor of the Spirit's power--His Father.

2 Corinthians 3:17 alludes to the spirit of Jehovah. Paul is referring back to the days of Moses when he has to wear a veil because of the brightness that shone in his face after communing with God on the mountain. Israel were afraid of this so they asked him to cover his face. Was the pre-human Jesus used by God as the guiding angel for Israel in the wilderness? Exodus 23:20:“I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared." It doesn't specifically say so, but it most definitely could have been either Michael or Gabriel....the only two angels mentioned in Scripture by name.

Paul consistently identified God The Father as Jehovah and Christ as Lord to the Corinthians. NWT translators didn't need to be inconsistent with 2 co 3:17, as it does not prove the trinity. It only proves the "glorified" Christ was also the holy spirit. I guess it was too close for comfort, hence the insertion of Jehovah for kurios.

Just to clear up a logical hiccup in your statement about Michael and Gabriel. The fact Exo 23:20 doesn't mention either by name should have excluded your universal quantifying phrase "most definitely". You are also illogically indicating that the mere identification of Michael and Gabriel as the only two angels mentioned by name in scripture would limit Jehovah (God) to the use of only one of the two in Exodus.

 

[Deeje]

Hi Deeje, I did mention earlier that I had no problem with it being restored to where it originally was, but no one can claim to be doing that in the NT. Instead they are putting it where they think it should go.

Actually we put it back where we know it should go. If the NT writers quote OT scripture, and it contained the name of God, then the name belongs in the text.

e.g. Luke 4:16-21:

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”
20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” (ESV)

The scripture that Jesus read was Isaiah 61:1, 2....

"The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah’s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn" (ASV)

Since Jesus read from Hebrew scripture and the tetragrammaton was clearly seen in the text three times in that passage, Jesus would not have left his Father's name unuttered. The NT should have God's name where it belongs in every quoted OT verse.

I believe that Jesus (aka Yahushua/Yeshua/Yehoshuah) is the name of God.

You can believe it if you like...but it doesn't make it true. Not one Bible verse calls Yeshua, Yahweh. God has only one name, that was to be his memorial "forever", (Ex 3:15) whilst Jesus has quite a few names, one of them given to him on his return to heaven that he does not reveal. (Rev 3:12).

The same God who revealed Himself as Jehovah (aka Yahweh/Yehowah) to Moses, and as El Shaddai to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob (Exodus 6:3). If the following verses (from the NWT) had said Jehovah instead of Jesus I would call on the name of Jehovah, but it doesn't. The name we were given under the New Covenant was Jesus:

They stood Peter and John in their midst and began to question them: “By what power or in whose name did you do this?” 8 Then Peter, filled with holy spirit,+ said to them:“Rulers of the people and elders, 9 if we are being examined today about a good deed to a crippled man,+ and you want to know who made this man well, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·reneʹ,+ whom you executed on a stake+ but whom God raised up from the dead,+ by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you. 11 This is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the chief cornerstone.’*+ 12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name+ under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.” Acts 4:10-12 NWT

Can I draw your attention to the verses following the ones above.....

Acts 4:24-30:
"When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit,

“‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed


27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness." (ESV)

Who is "the Lord" in these verses? Jesus is said to be his "holy servant".
Whose "word" were the disciples to speak?
How were the "signs and wonders" performed? "In the name of God's holy servant Jesus".
It is obvious that Yahweh is not Jesus. The Bible writers knew exactly who Jesus was and what the use of his name allowed them to do by means of God's holy spirit.

Yes I'm well aware of it. I've studied both with Jehovah's Witnesses as well as on my own the Jehovah's Witnesses material, Bible and founding.

Ah, that explains a lot. Your study has led you to a conclusion? That is its purpose. If we have helped people to make a decision about the good news of the Kingdom, then we have accomplished the objective of our preaching and teaching commission. Our job is not to convert the world but to place choices before them. Their choice is between them and God.

We'll have to agree to disagree because I'm not sure there is anything we can say to each other that will change each others minds. In fact I wouldn't have even brought it up were it not for savagewind quoting from the NWT. Many people don't know just how different it is to most other Bibles and I think they have a right to know upfront so that they can compare and decide for themselves. But if in the end, they decide it's the Translation for them, that's their prerogative.

I don't use the NWT much at all on internet forums and the translations I do use tell the same story that the NWT does. I studied my own KJV when I first began my quest for Bible truth.
I had no NWT to sway me one way or the other.....because the truth is the truth, no matter what translation you use.

I am well aware of the many translation faults in the KJV but I'm able to check the original Hebrew & Greek with the KJV + Strongs. This isn't the only way I check but it is the main way.

I use the same resources and come to an opposite conclusion to you.....go figure.

And yes I do believe the apostasy happened but after much study of the Jehovah's Witnesses, their material, Bible Translation and founding I have come to believe that they are part of that apostasy. I'm sorry if this offends you but I sincerely do.

I can see that, but don't worry. I am not the least bit offended. We are all making our choices now before God brings this system to its conclusion.
By our choices, the judge of us all will be able to separate us into one of only two categories.....we are all either "sheep" or "goats" and none of us knows how Jesus will judge us until he makes his declaration one way or the other. Counterfeit Christians will not have any idea that they have been misled by false teachers. (Matthew 7:21-23)
"Goats" can actually imagine that they are "sheep"...thank goodness Jesus knows which is which.