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Left Behind

Adziilii

Member
.
I recently viewed a 2014 movie on NetFlix starring Nicolas Cage titled "Left Behind". There was a glaring omission: nobody came back from the dead for the rapture; only living people were taken out.

Something else overlooked by the movie's producers is the category of folk who are supposed to be taken. According to 1Thess 4:13-17, they are "in him" and "in Christ"; viz: the rapture is exclusive; Christ is coming back for his church and no others.

Well, according to Eph 1:13; in order to get in Jesus' church, one must first believe the gospel (which includes his resurrection). Then they have to be sealed in him by the Holy Spirit. Therefore; non believing, non sealed children won't be taken in the real rapture. The movie's rapture took all the children.
_
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
.
I recently viewed a 2014 movie on NetFlix starring Nicolas Cage titled "Left Behind". There was a glaring omission: nobody came back from the dead for the rapture; only living people were taken out.

Something else overlooked by the movie's producers is the category of folk who are supposed to be taken. According to 1Thess 4:13-17, they are "in him" and "in Christ"; viz: the rapture is exclusive; Christ is coming back for his church and no others.

Well, according to Eph 1:13; in order to get in Jesus' church, one must first believe the gospel (which includes his resurrection). Then they have to be sealed in him by the Holy Spirit. Therefore; non believing, non sealed children won't be taken in the real rapture. The movie's rapture took all the children.
_

Not really into that anymore, but I have a copy of "The Late Great Planet Earth". I've been meaning to read it again. I don't know how highly it regarded. As to those Movies? Pretty vapid I think.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
.
I recently viewed a 2014 movie on NetFlix starring Nicolas Cage titled "Left Behind". There was a glaring omission: nobody came back from the dead for the rapture; only living people were taken out.

Something else overlooked by the movie's producers is the category of folk who are supposed to be taken. According to 1Thess 4:13-17, they are "in him" and "in Christ"; viz: the rapture is exclusive; Christ is coming back for his church and no others.

Well, according to Eph 1:13; in order to get in Jesus' church, one must first believe the gospel (which includes his resurrection). Then they have to be sealed in him by the Holy Spirit. Therefore; non believing, non sealed children won't be taken in the real rapture. The movie's rapture took all the children.
_
I believe all infants and and any children who have not reached an age of understanding and accountability to make a decision for Christ will be taken in the rapture, in line with what Jesus said concerning the kingdom of heaven and children...

But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 19:14

Will babies and young children be taken in the Rapture?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Ah the rapture......what is that exactly? Can you place it in the end time prophesies according to when it is supposed to happen and why?

Is it something that just happens and people will disappear off the earth, taken to heaven?
Why are they taken to heaven? What will they do there?

I never grew up with this expectation and find it rather ridiculous.

I know what it means in my own belief system, but can someone explain it scripturally according to Christendom's version of events?
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I recently viewed a 2014 movie on NetFlix starring Nicolas Cage titled "Left Behind". There was a glaring omission: nobody came back from the dead for the rapture; only living people were taken out.
He was also in Knowing which had a spaceship interpretation of Ezekiel's vision. Left Behind is classified as fiction not as echatological commentary. Its up there with Dan Brown and Frank Peretti not with serious treatments by people who know what they are writing about.

Something else overlooked by the movie's producers is the category of folk who are supposed to be taken. According to 1Thess 4:13-17, they are "in him" and "in Christ"; viz: the rapture is exclusive; Christ is coming back for his church and no others.
There is also an interpretation that those in Christ have already died and live in him as a group, but this requires allowing that repentance is resurrection. That is, if we are willing to allow that those who have not repented are dead we can find eschatology to be rewarding and encouraging rather than just plain weird. The Britannica article on Eschatology says
Britannica on Eschatology said:
...Shaped by the extent and nature of the believer’s involvement in the world, eschatological expectations assume either an individual or a collective form, embracing individual souls, a people or group, humanity, or the whole cosmos....

Well, according to Eph 1:13; in order to get in Jesus' church, one must first believe the gospel (which includes his resurrection). Then they have to be sealed in him by the Holy Spirit. Therefore; non believing, non sealed children won't be taken in the real rapture. The movie's rapture took all the children.
Notice that verse 11 mentions being chosen in him. This is talking about the body of Christ as opposed to individual life. It suggests we are not chosen as individuals and those who enter into Christ must deny themselves, so they no longer live but Christ. Its a completely valid view and in my opinion much better than any of the individualist interpretations all of which are about 'Me' and 'My' resurrection.
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
The book was better then the movie...it addresses both points you made about the the dead and who was raptured.
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
The book was better then the movie...it addresses both points you made about the the dead and who was raptured.
there is also a book on the left behind book series called The Truth Behind Left Behind. Tim LaHaye has a lot of books on the end times if you are interested in learning more about it.
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
Well, according to Eph 1:13; in order to get in Jesus' church, one must first believe the gospel (which includes his resurrection). Then they have to be sealed in him by the Holy Spirit. Therefore; non believing, non sealed children won't be taken in the real rapture. The movie's rapture took all the children.
_
There are a few bible scholars who agree with you and a few who don't. It depends on how you interpret it. LaHaye was one of those who believed in the age of accountability and after rapture a few of the first seals are broken then the ones left behind who became Christians during the Tribulation could be sealed...I can't remember his explanation through or the verses he went to off the top of my head I would have to look for them.But that's probably why all the kids were taken.
 

Adziilii

Member
.
Ah the rapture......what is that exactly?

It's basically an evacuation; viz: God wants Christ's church out of here, and off of here, before the dreadful events depicted in the book of Revelation begin to take place.

1Thess 1:10 . .Wait for His son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead-- Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1Thess 5:9 . . For God has not destined us for wrath


Can you place it in the end time prophesies

The rapture is not predicted in the Old Testament, rather; in the New.

according to when it is supposed to happen?

There is no date given for the rapture, nor any signs or warnings given to alert people to start getting ready. People have been watching for it ever since the first century because it's an impending event; i.e. imminent.

people will disappear off the earth?

People will be levitated rather than disappearing so it's likely the event will be witnessed by just about everybody on Earth; and there's an order to it.

First of all: the dead in Christ from day-one till now will be restored to life; viz: resurrected; which is pretty interesting because not everyone's dead body is an intact corpse. Some have been completely dissolved, some are ashes, and some have either been eaten by beasts or blown to bits in explosions.

Anyway, after all of Christ's dead are revived, then everybody in Christ-- those who are still living and those who were deceased --will be levitated all at the same time, en masse, to rendezvous with Christ up in the sky; like an alien abduction, so to speak. Exactly how far up in the sky I don't know.


taken to heaven?

I assume so because the Bible says that the raptured people will be with Christ from thence and forever.

Why are they taken to heaven?

I should think it's because heaven will be safer there than here.

What will they do there?

I'm guessing that first off they'll be sent to a sort of Bible Camp where they'll get some of their spurious interpretations debunked; and then given the right ones so that all the debating will cease. It is God's wishes that Christ's people be unified.

Later, they'll be transferred to a brand new cosmos that's in the works. Exactly what they'll do in the new cosmos I don't know.


I never grew up with this expectation and find it rather ridiculous.

Well; I can hardly blame you. I should think it's easier to believe the moon is made of green cheese than to believe in a rapture.

can someone explain it scripturally according to Christendom's version of events?

Not me! its too involved and too complex. And besides; Christendom is divided on this issue; very divided. However, I can recommend a couple of scriptures that you might find helpful.

1Cor 15:35-53
1Thess 4:13-17
_
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
Not me! its too involved and too complex. And besides; Christendom is divided on this issue; very divided. However, I can recommend a couple of scriptures that you might find helpful.

1Cor 15:35-53
1Thess 4:13-17
_
Indeed it is complex and divided.
 

Adziilii

Member
.
It's sometimes objected that a truly loving, sensitive, kind-hearted god would never leave innocent children behind to go thru the calamitous events depicted in the book of Revelation.

It's a reasonable objection; however faith is supposed to believe what's revealed to it rather than what makes sense to it. Sort of like Mark Twain's remark: "Faith is believin' what you know ain't so."

So then:

How many innocent children were spared the Flood?

How many innocent children were spared Sodom and Gomorrah?

How many innocent children would've been spared had the adults in Nineveh not heeded Jonah's warning?

In other words: the rapture has nothing to do with either guilt or innocence. It's all about whether or not people have believed the gospel and been sealed by God's Spirit. To my knowledge the requirements stipulated in Eph 1:13 and 1Thess 4:13-17 have never been waived.

Being left out of the rapture is pretty serious but it isn't an automatic sentence to hell; I mean: according to Rev 7:9-17, a very large number of people will be saved during the calamities, which includes a world-wide earthquake so severe on the Richter scale that every city on Earth will collapse at once; no doubt resulting in an unimaginable body count.

Something like 2,829 lost their lives when the World Trade Center was demolished by a terrorist attack in 2001. Well that was only a small portion of New York City. Just imagine the carnage when all of Manhattan comes down at once. along with other major cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Mexico City, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, and Tokyo, et al.
_
 
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VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
.
It's sometimes objected that a truly loving, sensitive, kind-hearted god would never leave innocent children behind to go thru the calamitous events depicted in the book of Revelation.

It's a reasonable objection; however faith is supposed to believe what's revealed to it rather than what makes sense to it. Sort of like Mark Twain's remark: "Faith is believin' what you know ain't so."

So then:

How many innocent children were spared the Flood?

How many innocent children were spared Sodom and Gomorrah?

How many innocent children would've been spared had the adults in Nineveh not heeded Jonah's warning?

In other words: the rapture has nothing to do with either guilt or innocence. It's all about whether or not people have believed the gospel and been sealed by God's Spirit. To my knowledge the requirements stipulated in Eph 1:13 have never been waived.

Being left out of the rapture is pretty serious but it isn't an automatic sentence to hell; I mean: according to Rev 7:9-17, a very large number of people will be saved during the calamities, which includes a world-wide earthquake so severe on the Richter scale that every city on Earth will collapse at once; no doubt resulting in an unimaginable body count.

Something like 2,829 lost their lives when the World Trade Center was demolished by a terrorist attack in 2001. Well that was only a small portion of New York City. Just imagine the carnage when all of Manhattan comes down at once. along with other major cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Mexico City, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, and Tokyo, et al.
_
Good points.I wish I could say something else in response to but it takes me a long time to come up with one that highlights and goes more in depth with what you wrote and I don't have my notebooks with me on the topic.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It's basically an evacuation; viz: God wants Christ's church out of here, and off of here, before the dreadful events depicted in the book of Revelation begin to take place.

1Thess 1:10 . .Wait for His son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead-- Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1Thess 5:9 . . For God has not destined us for wrath

Who constitutes Christ's "church" do you think? When I read Matthew 7:21-23 I see Jesus at the judgment rejecting "many" who claim him as their "Lord". They seem shocked that Jesus would do that seeing as how they thought of themselves as good Christians, doing things like prophesying, expelling demons and performing powerful works in his name....yet he tells them that he NEVER knew them. So who are these ones that Jesus has never known? NEVER means "not ever".

The rapture is not predicted in the Old Testament, rather; in the New.

Yes, the Jews were expecting Messiah to establish his Kingdom on earth and to bless all mankind through them. Only with the coming of Christ were his disciples made aware of the spiritual nature of the Kingdom.
It would rule from heaven, but over earthly subjects. Remember that God created humans to live forever on earth. If Adam had not sinned, no human would have ever gone to heaven because the Kingdom and the savior would not have been necessary. Have you ever contemplated that?

There is no date given for the rapture, nor any signs or warnings given to alert people to start getting ready. People have been watching for it ever since the first century because it's an impending event; i.e. imminent.

Jesus actually did give a warning if you read Matthew 24:3-14. The apostles asked him about when they could expect the Kingdom to come and the end of the age. He did not give them a specific time but indicated that a series of world events would signal that he had begun his rulership in heaven. It was the sign of his "presence" (parousia) not of his "coming", which was to occur at the end....at the judgment.

People will be levitated rather than disappearing so it's likely the event will be witnessed by just about everybody on Earth; and there's an order to it.

Are you expecting this resurrection to be in the flesh? Will humans "levitate" and drift off into the sky?
Is that what the Bible says?

First of all: the dead in Christ from day-one till now will be restored to life; viz: resurrected; which is pretty interesting because not everyone's dead body is an intact corpse. Some have been completely dissolved, some are ashes, and some have either been eaten by beasts or blown to bits in explosions.

Yes, it would be hard to resurrect someone whose body has been lost somehow. But does God need the remains of someone to resurrect them?

The resurrections in the Bible were back to this life. But the ones performed by Jesus when he comes to take his anointed ones "home" is the same kind of resurrection that he himself experienced.

The apostle Peter said....."For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit." (1 Peter 3:18)

What do you think that means?

Anyway, after all of Christ's dead are revived, then everybody in Christ-- those who are still living and those who were deceased --will be levitated all at the same time, en masse, to rendezvous with Christ up in the sky; like an alien abduction, so to speak. Exactly how far up in the sky I don't know.

Sounds like a sci-fi movie. Are you sure about all of that?

I assume so because the Bible says that the raptured people will be with Christ from thence and forever.

Does the word "rapture" appear anywhere in the NT?

I should think it's because heaven will be safer there than here.

Have you ever traced the Bible's narrative from Genesis to Revelation? It is one story that begins with creation, humans failing the test of obedience, the penalty and its consequences, God's rescue mission in sending Jesus Christ, and finally the restoration of all that was lost in the beginning. Lessons about the appropriate use of free will mean that it will never happen again.....and precedents are set about obedience to God's laws for all time to come. Its an amazing read when you put all the pieces together. Did you ever wonder what the point was in God choosing a nation as his own, when they could never get their act together?

I'm guessing that first off they'll be sent to a sort of Bible Camp where they'll get some of their spurious interpretations debunked; and then given the right ones so that all the debating will cease. It is God's wishes that Christ's people be unified.

Later, they'll be transferred to a brand new cosmos that's in the works. Exactly what they'll do in the new cosmos I don't know.

The Bible repeats the phrase "a new heavens and a new earth" in Isaiah's prophesies and in Revelation and also it is used by the apostle Peter. (2 Peter 3:13) Some people see this as literal, but on reflection, we have to ask what is wrong with the literal heavens and the earth that would require God to scrap them and make new ones?

We have an instance in the past where God destroyed a world of corruption in Noah's day. He cleansed the earth by means of a flood but he did not destroy the planet. Jesus used the flood of Noah's day to indicate what the world would be like again when it was time for his return.....and here we are. (Matthew 24:37-39)

We don't need a new planet...we just need to clean up the old one and rid it of wickedness. Jesus said that the "meek shall inherit the earth"....this is where God put us in the first place....it is where he intended us to live in peace and security in paradise conditions for all time to come.
Ecclesiastes 1:4 says...."A generation is going, and a generation is coming,
But the earth remains forever."


And there is nothing wrong with the universe so "the new heavens" must refer to something else. Perhaps it is the governmental arrangement that needs replacing as well. God's kingdom is going to "come" and "crush" all existing human rulership out of existence, and replace it. (Daniel 2:44)

I should think it's easier to believe the moon is made of green cheese than to believe in a rapture.

It sounds really silly to me. Those who go to heaven are not the only ones saved. Their resurrection is spiritual, not fleshly and they are said to be rulers and priests with Christ in his kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) So who are they ruling? And for whom do they act as priests? There are no sinners in heaven.

Not me! its too involved and too complex. And besides; Christendom is divided on this issue; very divided. However, I can recommend a couple of scriptures that you might find helpful.

1Cor 15:35-53
1Thess 4:13-17

Does it have to be complex? I see it all rather simply......what God started in the beginning was going to be completed at the end. (Isaiah 55:11) :)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
.
It's sometimes objected that a truly loving, sensitive, kind-hearted god would never leave innocent children behind to go thru the calamitous events depicted in the book of Revelation.

It's a reasonable objection; however faith is supposed to believe what's revealed to it rather than what makes sense to it. Sort of like Mark Twain's remark: "Faith is believin' what you know ain't so."

Paul said...."Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen." (Hebrews 11:1) So I guess relying on God to do what he says he can, when we can't, is basically what this is suggesting. He does not have our limitations. "Believers" believe...

So then:

How many innocent children were spared the Flood?

How many innocent children were spared Sodom and Gomorrah?

How many innocent children would've been spared had the adults in Nineveh not heeded Jonah's warning?

In other words: the rapture has nothing to do with either guilt or innocence. It's all about whether or not people have believed the gospel and been sealed by God's Spirit. To my knowledge the requirements stipulated in Eph 1:13 and 1Thess 4:13-17 have never been waived.

Children are under their parent's umbrella. IOW, if the parents are in good standing with God, then so are the children. But once they reach an age where they become accountable for their own decisions, then they are responsible before God for their own decisions. That seems fair to me.

Being left out of the rapture is pretty serious but it isn't an automatic sentence to hell; I mean: according to Rev 7:9-17, a very large number of people will be saved during the calamities, which includes a world-wide earthquake so severe on the Richter scale that every city on Earth will collapse at once; no doubt resulting in an unimaginable body count.

Two things I notice here.....who is "left out of the rapture"?
Since the Bible does not teach that a rapture will even occur the way many Christians seem to assume, what does that mean? What is the purpose of being taken to heaven if God put us here on earth? He already has a spiritual family in heaven, so why the need to take humans there in the first place? Once we figure that out, the rest makes sense.

What do you think?

Something like 2,829 lost their lives when the World Trade Center was demolished by a terrorist attack in 2001. Well that was only a small portion of New York City. Just imagine the carnage when all of Manhattan comes down at once. along with other major cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Mexico City, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, and Tokyo, et al.

No doubt that terrorists took down the Trade Centre...but I think we might be surprised by who they were and why they did it. That aside, I agree that there will be much loss of life, but no one will perish at Armageddon who has not made their own decision to disobey the Creator.

It's the reason why part of the sign Jesus gave concerning the last days was 'the preaching of the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations"...because then "the end" can come...after God has warned everyone about what is coming. (Matthew 24:14)
It doesn't mean that the people take notice as Jesus said.....

"37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be." (Matthew 24:37-39)

No one believed Noah at first, but they ended up lamenting about the fact they they chose to ridicule him, rather than listen to him.
I believe history will repeat. Only a few were saved back then.....and "few" will be saved when the judgment comes. (Matthew 7:13-14)
 

Adziilii

Member
.
Who constitutes Christ's "church" do you think?

The church is depicted as Jesus' body. (Eph 1:22-23, Eph 5:30)

The question then becomes: Which of his bodies? The body that was crucified? Or the body that he has now?

Well; given the option, my personal selection would be his crucified body because that would get me out of hot water with God; here's why:

Isa 53:6 . .We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The pronoun "him" in that verse speaks of Jesus. (Acts 8:26-35)

In some mysterious way, that I have yet to fully understand, God is able to make people one with Jesus.

Eph 5:29-32 . . We are members of his body. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery-- but I am talking about Christ and the church.

By becoming one with Jesus (essentially one flesh, so to speak) people are able to participate in the fulfillment of Isa 53:6.

Rom 6:3 . . Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

Because of Rom 6:3, Christ's church can say:

"I am crucified with Christ" (Gal 2:20)

So the next logical question becomes: What kind of baptism is Rom 6:3 talking about? Is it ritual baptism or supernatural baptism?

Well, my money is on supernatural baptism.

1Cor 12:12-13 . .The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free --and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
_
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I waded through the first book of Left Behind. I didn't like it much.

The writing was poor and the characters worse. LaHaye is no Dan Brown or Tolkien or Asimov. I am quite able to suspend disbelief, but that requires top notch skills with fiction.

Left Behind was more like The Celestine Prophecy and whatever that was Whitley Strieber did. Poorly written, agenda driven, literature. Really bad fiction.
Yuck.

Possibly the movie would be better, what with modern computer graphics. It could hardly be worse than the book.
Tom
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I waded through the first book of Left Behind. I didn't like it much.

The writing was poor and the characters worse. LaHaye is no Dan Brown or Tolkien or Asimov. I am quite able to suspend disbelief, but that requires top notch skills with fiction.

Left Behind was more like The Celestine Prophecy and whatever that was Whitley Strieber did. Poorly written, agenda driven, literature. Really bad fiction.
Yuck.

Possibly the movie would be better, what with modern computer graphics. It could hardly be worse than the book.
Tom

I remember seeing one of the "Left Behind" series, but then I started to deeply think about the meaning of it all. "The Late Great Planet Earth" drags a lot of pertenant scripture together and is good if you study that point of view. Not sure I agree with it nowadays.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
.
The church is depicted as Jesus' body. (Eph 1:22-23, Eph 5:30)

The question then becomes: Which of his bodies? The body that was crucified? Or the body that he has now?

Well; given the option, my personal selection would be his crucified body because that would get me out of hot water with God;

From my perspective, I have to ask a more important question.....who is "we" in those scriptures that speak about being members of Christ's body?

It isn't speaking about all who claim to be Christians....and especially not those that Christ said he "never knew". (Matthew 7:21-23)

Once you understand who the "weeds" (tares) are in Jesus parable, the "wheat" become clearly identifiable. An apostasy of the same kind that overtook Judaism was also going to overtake Christianity.

Tracing Israel's history, you will see that deviation from God's laws and instructions, by replacing them with man-made traditions (as if these were somehow superior) resulted in Jesus basically telling the Jewish leaders that they were like "whitewashed graves"....clean on the outside but a rotting corpse inside. He said that, because of their stubborn, intractable refusal to be corrected, that God would abandon them, having fulfilled his covenant. (Matthew 23:37-39) God would now produce a new nation of 'spiritual' Israelites. (Galatians 6:16)...under a new covenant.

Tracing the history of Christianity, we see the same path followed by the early church, which ended up shattering the church into thousands of fragments all disagreeing with one another but still claiming to be "one body" in Christ. Come the judgment, we are going to see a lot of disgruntled and disillusioned people.

How did Jesus save those Jews who were "lost sheep" back then? He told them the truth about the worship of their God and told his disciples not to be like the hypocritical Pharisees. (Matthew 23)

As Messiah, come into the world to save mankind, he led them out of that apostate religious system (one that God no longer recognized) and into a new pen as a new flock. He would be their shepherd and he would feed them and take care of them. But another apostasy was to take place with Christianity and it would last many centuries, leading "Christians" into false worship again, like their predecessors before them......Christendom is the product of that apostasy....hopelessly lost, disobedient to Christ's commands, spiritually bankrupt....holding onto false religious concepts that they have held to for all this time without realising that they were the product of devil's weeds.

here's why:

Isa 53:6 . .We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The pronoun "him" in that verse speaks of Jesus. (Acts 8:26-35)

In some mysterious way, that I have yet to fully understand, God is able to make people one with Jesus.

Eph 5:29-32 . . We are members of his body. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This is a profound mystery-- but I am talking about Christ and the church.

By becoming one with Jesus (essentially one flesh, so to speak) people are able to participate in the fulfillment of Isa 53:6.

Rom 6:3 . . Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

Because of Rom 6:3, Christ's church can say:

"I am crucified with Christ" (Gal 2:20)

All of those scriptures pertain to those who are chosen to be Christ's "brothers".....his co-rulers in his heavenly kingdom. Each one chosen by God for a position in the government who will rule redeemed mankind. (Revelation 21:2-4)

So from my understanding, it's not the scriptures but the application that makes the difference. Becoming an anointed Christian is not up to us....God chooses them, we can't assume to be of that number, nor can we volunteer for it. It is God's choice.

So the next logical question becomes: What kind of baptism is Rom 6:3 talking about? Is it ritual baptism or supernatural baptism?

Well, my money is on supernatural baptism.

God's word tells exactly what this baptism is. Only those w
ith the "heavenly calling" are baptized into Christ...i.e. they will die in the flesh, but their resurrection will be like his....reborn as spirit beings in order to go to heaven. Not all Christians will go to heaven as seen in Revelation 7:13-14. There will be survivors of the "great tribulation" and these are attributing their salvation to God and the Lamb. These are an unnumbered "great multitude", separate from the 144,000 who have joined Christ on the heavenly Mount Zion.

1Cor 12:12-13 . .The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free --and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
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Again we have to identify who "we" are in these scriptures.

I am not going to heaven because planet Earth is my home. I don't want to leave it....and when it is returned to paradise conditions under the rulership of the kingdom, who would want to? God designed us humans for everlasting life on earth.

The anointed have had that natural desire overridden by God's spirit. "Home" to them is heaven, where Jesus is. They don't "hope" to go to heaven....they are assured of it.

Christendom is not Christianity by anyone's definition.....just look at the divided state that it's in. (1 Corinthians 1:10) It isn't division that identifies true Christians but unity and love. (John 13:34-35)
 

Adziilii

Member
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1Pet 3:18 . . For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.

The translation of 1Pet 3:18 below contains a deliberate error to bring out a point. Watch for it.

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive as a spirit."

The correct translation doesn't say "as a spirit" but nevertheless that's how some people's minds see it anyway.

Let's have some fun with this..

"The hand of The Lord was upon me, and carried me out as a spirit of The Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones" (Ezek 37:1)

"And now, behold, I go bound as a spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there" (Acts 20:22)

"For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you as a spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ." (Col 2:5)

"I was as a spirit on the Lord's day, and yada, yada, yada." (Rev 1:10)

All four of those translations are deliberately incorrect. Where you see "as a spirit" it's supposed to say "in the spirit".

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that the correct translation of Ezek 37:1 reveals the true meaning of "in the spirit". Here it is.

Ezek 37:1 . .The hand of The Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of The Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones.

Let's plug some of that translation into 1Pet 3:18 and see what it looks like.

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit of The Lord."

The spirit of The Lord is well known throughout the Bible as the Holy Spirit and/or the Holy Ghost, and/or the spirit of God, etc.

Bear with me for just a bit more.

Peter says that Christ preached to the antediluvians in the spirit; in other words: in the spirit of The Lord. Well, we have a record of that located in Gen 6:3

"The Lord said: My spirit shall not strive with man forever"

In other words: 1Pet 3:18-20 isn't saying Christ preached to the antediluvians after his resurrection, rather, many years prior to his even becoming a man; in point of fact: back in Noah's day.

So then, did Christ, in the sprit of The Lord, do the preaching himself in person? No, God has always used inspired men to do His preaching.

"Noah . . a preacher of righteousness." (2Pet 2:5)

In other words: Christ, in the spirit of The Lord, inspired Noah.
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Adziilii

Member
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does God need the remains of someone to resurrect them?


Yes; in very example of a resurrection in the Bible, it's people's remains that are restored to life; no exceptions.

Human remains are likened to seeds (1Cor 15:35-53) which would be quite useless were they to be thrown away.

Q: What about the remains of people whose bodies are no longer intact such as those eaten and digested by critters, burned to ashes, and/or blown to smithereens in war?

A: It was God's intentions from the beginning that human bodies return to the dust from whence they're made. (Gen 3:19)

Q: What if some of the atoms that made my body go into making another person's body after I'm dead? How will God fully restore both our bodies to life seeing as how He will have need of the atoms of each to do so?

A: Specific atoms are all the same; it's not as if there are no two alike; viz: if God needs some carbon atoms to reconstruct your body, He could utilize carbon atoms from a Sequoia cactus and they would work just fine without the slightest need for adjustment because every carbon atom is a precise duplicate of every other carbon atom; viz: all carbon atoms are just one kind of carbon atom.

So it isn't necessary for God to locate all your original carbon atoms in order to reconstruct your original body; He just needs carbon atoms; and they are very plentiful in nature: same with iron atoms, calcium, phosphorus, sodium, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.

Q: What good is it to restore my original body to life if it is unsuitable for the kingdom of God? (1Cor 15:50)

A: According to 1Cor 15:35-53 and 1Thess 4:13-17, people destined for the rapture are slated to undergo an amazing transformation likened to the transformation that a seed undergoes when it germinates. However, though the seed is lost in the process, its essential elements live on in the adult plant that it produces.

The exact nature of the raptured body is a whole field of lively debate which I will not endeavor to explore at this time; only to say the following:

1) The raptured body will be very much like Christ's raptured body. (Phil 3:20-21)

2) The raptured body is capable of dining upon ordinary foods. (Luke 22:15-16)

3) The raptured body is capable of imbibing ordinary beverages. (Matt 26:29)

4) The raptured body is visible to the naked eye. (Acts 1:11, Rev 1:7)

Q: Christ was raptured?

A: Yes. (Acts 1:9)

Q: You're saying that Christ's crucified dead body was restored to life, and then on the way up to heaven it underwent the very same kind of metamorphosis that raptured people are slated to undergo?

A: Yes. (Acts 1:3, Acts 2:24-32, Acts 13:28-37)

Q: But how can a physical body walk through solid objects? (John 20:19)

A: Christ walked on water, restored withered limbs, cured people born blind, healed serious diseases like leprosy, restored dead bodies to life, controlled the weather, multiplied fish and bread, turned water into wine, and levitated. Plus; he once said that rocks could be made to speak. (Luke 19:40)

What's one more miracle, more or less? Walking through walls? Disappearing and reappearing? How hard could any of that really be for a man with the powers of God at his disposal?

It's curious how people can say they believe in miracles, yet cannot believe that God has sufficient control over the laws of nature to make a physical human body pass through solid objects.
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