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michel said:What is the actual difference inthe LDS belief in the Godhead and the "Catholic" Trinity?
comprehend said:I don't know. I have never heard an understandable explanation of the trinity to compare our beliefs with.
We believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ both have physical bodies of flesh and bone, and that they are separate and distinct individuals. We believe the Holy Ghost is a male and has a spiritual body but not a physical one.
I would imagine that the physical bodies, and separateness of each are the major difference from the trinity doctrine.
michel said:I ask because I think I saw a post of Katzpur's recently in which she said she is a non-Trinitarian. having just looked at the LDS description of the Godhead, it strikes me that it is so similar to the Catholic (as in universal) Christion church..............
michel said:Having asked the question, I came upon this site:-http://www.angelfire.com/ga/kevgram/trinity.html
(I don't know how reliable it is)
The Trinity concept is one that has been accepted by many Christian denominations for more than 1600 years. We as Latter-day Saints accept this "three in one" concept as far as it is referring to the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost being of one will and purpose, as opposed to being of one substance and conscience. Because the Trinity is a vague term, and can mean simply "three in one." Therefore, it could be argued that Mormons actually do believe in a Trinity, however the Trinity to which most Evangelical Christians refer, contains several elements which the Latter-day Saints simply deny as being revealed truth from God. Having been created at the Council of Nicea in the form of the Athanasian creed 325 A.D. it states:"We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is all one; the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated; but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty; and yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."
This statement is a mass of inconsistencies and contradictions that has little to do with what the scriptures say God is like. We cannot understand God, our Eternal Father, unless we embrace his words in the scriptures. No other source, including the debated concepts of the Council of Nicea, are adequate. Now the most significant difference between the Mormon "Godhead" and the Evangelical "Trinity", lies within the idea that the three divisions are actually of one substance. In other words, according to the creedal Trinity, Christ is actually the Father in "essence", and the Father is the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is the Son since none of them can be considered separate in any other way than "persons" and they are supposed to be "one substance.". There really is no way around this fact, which is explicitly dictated in the Nicene creed. Of course Mormons believe in a "Godhead", which unlike the Trinity, is a term found in the Bible.Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. "
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"
Col 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
Frankly, reading the above just makes me more confused...........
Not quite what I said comprehend. I said One God in 3 persons, not 3 Gods. That's an important distinction, IMHO.comprehend said:Snowbear explained it properly. The trinity says that 3 Gods are one in substance, LDS say that there are 3 Gods that are one in purpose but are separate and distinct individuals.
michel said:That is a belief of mine.
comprehend said:my mistake. I didn't know MSC's believed they could become equal with God. learn something new everyday.
What's an MSC?comprehend said:my mistake. I didn't know MSC's believed they could become equal with God. learn something new everyday.
Snowbear said:Not quite what I said comprehend. I said One God in 3 persons, not 3 Gods. That's an important distinction, IMHO.
Halcyon said:What's an MSC?
EDIT: Ah, thanks Mich, lol.
Out of interest, would you say you believe we become equal with God, or that we become a part of God?
Our first "Article of Faith" states: "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." (The Articles of Faith, incidentally, come about as close to an official "creed" as you will find in our Church.) They are official statements of basic doctrine.michel said:What is the actual difference inthe LDS belief in the Godhead and the "Catholic" Trinity?
comprehend said:I don't know. I have never heard an understandable explanation of the trinity to compare our beliefs with.
I'm going to try to tie LDS doctrine into your (i.e. James') explanation of the Trinity. First off, let me say that it's the best definition I've heard yet, and is far better than that water, steam, ice one which, is my opinion, is -- forgive my choice of words -- "worthless."Victor said:Try this:
From JamesThePersian
God is One in His Divine Essence, His substance if you like, but He is made up of three Hypostases. Hypostasis is usually translated into English as Person, but that's a fairly poor translation, it's more like personal essence, that which makes an individual a unique person. There really isn't a good analogy that can be used because this is utterly other than all beings that we have experience of in real life. The best way I can describe it is this: a human has one essence (that which makes him human) and one hypostasis (that which makes him uniquely him). God has one Essence (that which makes Him Divine) but three Hypostases. He is, then, One God (one individual) in three Hypostases and is always, simultaneously, One according to His essence but Three in His Hypostases. I'm sure that my description fails at many levels, but we were asked to explain in our own words so I can't call on the words of the Fathers. It is impossible to really grasp the Trinity with our rational mind (hence us calling it a Mystery) so I'd be unsurprised if people don't follow my attempt to explain. You can pretty much guarantee that if someone tells you the Trinity is 'simple' they don't have a clear idea of what it means themselves.
James explanation always seem to work better then what I have to say.
Katzpur said:I'm going to try to tie LDS doctrine into your (i.e. James') explanation of the Trinity. First off, let me say that it's the best definition I've heard yet, and is far better than that water, steam, ice one which, is my opinion, is -- forgive my choice of words -- "worthless."
Since we Latter-day Saints never, ever use either "substance" or "essence" in speaking of God, you'll need to bear in mind that it's very difficult, if not impossible, for us to even think, much less articulately convey, our belief about God using either of those terms.
I'll start by attempting to paraphrase James. If I do so poorly, please know that it is not intentionally, because I really am trying to be accurate in my understanding. He said that God is One in His divine essence or substance, his essence being that which makes Him divine. Since I have a hard time thinking of essence or substance in non-physical terms (i.e. to me, both water and air are substances, even though air cannot be seen), I'd say that to the Latter-day Saints, it would be accurate to say that God is One in His divinity attributes. It is His perfect love, His absolute knowledge and power, etc. that make Him "God." Since the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all have these same attributes, and have them to the same extent (perhaps that is why you say they are "co-equal"), we can and do say that they are "One."
Now, with regards to His "hypostasis," we would agree that the Godhead is three hypostases, known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. I think it is the fact that we see a being's "hypostasis" as describing both his physical and non-physical unique qualities. You are aware, of course, that we view the Father and the Son as both having a corporeal nature. I know that you believe the Father to be a being of spirit only. We believe that both of them are glorified, immortal beings of flesh and bones. Unless I am mistaken, you believe that Jesus ascended into Heaven as a physical, though immortal, being. I'm assuming you believe that He still has that physical body. Like you, we believe that the Holy Ghost is a being of spirit only.
In conclusion, we would probably agree with you in terms of God's divine essence, as long as we can qualify this to be referring exclusively to His non-physical attributes, i.e. the things about Him that make Him God and that make us human. We would agree that this one God is made up of three hypostases. We just believe that two of the three are corporeal and one is not, while you believe that one of the three is corporeal and two are not.
Does that make sense to anybody?
It is impossible to really grasp the Trinity with our rational mind
I know, I'm not Victor... I'm pretty sure that what he and James were both saying is that they have "One" essence.comprehend said:my question for you is, do the three separate hypstasis' share the same essence or do they have identical but distince essences?
Katzpur said:I know, I'm not Victor... I'm pretty sure that what he and James were both saying is that they have "One" essence.