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LDS beliefs and the Bible

Orontes

Orontes

Master of the Horse
madhatter85 said:
Fish hunter

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...r-madhatter85-lds-bible-word.html#post1152486

1 on 1 you and me
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Hello,

I have basically focused on Fish-Hunter's posts in this thread. I have been critical of a general sloppiness and failure to give any type of wherefore for many of his charges: example, and example. I have also noted a fundamental category mistake in his stance that undercuts the whole tenor of his postion: post. Even so, I noted this statement at the head of your challenge: "Due to the extremely annoying level of anti-mormonism eminating from the lips of Fish-Hunter i will challenge him to a 1 on 1 about how the LDS view the Bible so he will shut up." Fish-Hunter believes his view is the correct one and Mormonism is flawed. He is also passionate about his views. I think that is fine, a free exchange of ideas is a good thing. For what it's worth, I don't think Fish-Hunter intends to be annoying, nor does he strike me as any kind of bigot or a nasty fellow.
 
madhatter85

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Orontes said:
Hello,

I have basically focused on Fish-Hunter's posts in this thread. I have been critical of a general sloppiness and failure to give any type of wherefore for many of his charges: example, and example. I have also noted a fundamental category mistake in his stance that undercuts the whole tenor of his postion: post. Even so, I noted this statement at the head of your challenge: "Due to the extremely annoying level of anti-mormonism eminating from the lips of Fish-Hunter i will challenge him to a 1 on 1 about how the LDS view the Bible so he will shut up." Fish-Hunter believes his view is the correct one and Mormonism is flawed. He is also passionate about his views. I think that is fine, a free exchange of ideas is a good thing. For what it's worth, I don't think Fish-Hunter intends to be annoying, nor does he strike me as any kind of bigot or a nasty fellow.
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It's called passive agressiveness, it's a tactic used by people who do intend on being annoying but don't want to seem like it on the surface.

the way he words his statements are definitely passive aggressive. he does nto wish to know more but rather to "prove us wrong" and ignore the questions he can't answer.
 
DeepShadow

DeepShadow

White Crow
madhatter85 said:
the way he words his statements are definitely passive aggressive. he does nto wish to know more but rather to "prove us wrong" and ignore the questions he can't answer.
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I think that's only one of many possibilities. I think fundamental attribution error may be another valid one.
 
DeepShadow

DeepShadow

White Crow
Oh sorry, Orontes was talking about fundamental debating parameters. Darn my psychology training getting me mixed up in this!
 
Apex

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
Orontes said:
Hello,

I have basically focused on Fish-Hunter's posts in this thread. I have been critical of a general sloppiness and failure to give any type of wherefore for many of his charges: example, and example. I have also noted a fundamental category mistake in his stance that undercuts the whole tenor of his postion: post. Even so, I noted this statement at the head of your challenge: "Due to the extremely annoying level of anti-mormonism eminating from the lips of Fish-Hunter i will challenge him to a 1 on 1 about how the LDS view the Bible so he will shut up." Fish-Hunter believes his view is the correct one and Mormonism is flawed. He is also passionate about his views. I think that is fine, a free exchange of ideas is a good thing. For what it's worth, I don't think Fish-Hunter intends to be annoying, nor does he strike me as any kind of bigot or a nasty fellow.
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I agree. While attempting to debate with him may be like talking to a brick wall, he has not been overly antagonistic or hateful. But I guess we, me and Orontes, are more accustomed to extremely more vehement posters than Fish-Hunter.
 
McBell

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
uss_bigd said:
That was how you were consistently replying to my post. so let me ask you

Is disagreeing the best you can come with in a reply? :slap:
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I disagree.
You have not asked me any questions for me to avoid, run around, and/or ignore.
 
Starfish

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
Marie Antoinette said:
New here.

Why on earth does anybody (specifically the Fundamentalist Christians) feel they have the right to tell the members of the LDS Church that they are not Christians and why would you bother to waste your time to do so when you can do so much more for the world and Christianity?
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Welcome Marie! And good luck getting an answer to what you asked. I've been here for four months, and am still wondering. ;)

I must say though, I've learned a lot from our fundamentalist friends here. It's been good.

Enjoy!
 
F

Fish-Hunter

Rejoice in the Lord!
uss_bigd said:
Fish-hunter, Sola'lor already answered me that some of their doctrines were "given" to Joseph Smth directly by THEIR Christs.

his exacts words were "JS did not write @#$%% doctrine while reading the NT, Jesus told JS himself"

So, you already won....
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Thanks for the kind and encouraging post. However, my motive is not to win a fight or debate with any of the LDS Christians on this site. Nor, can I make anyone believe in the God that reveals Himself through the Scriptures alone. I've been off this site for three days, and I see this particular thread has had so many views. In faith, I am just trying to discuss the God that I have come to know and worship. In faith, I am just rejoicing that His will is being accomplished through all of our postings. Through the Providence of God, He uses both the unbeliever and believer aliket to accompish His will for His own Glory and name sake. I am praying that God will enable me to speak the truth in love. As you know, I do not share the same gospel as yourself, nor do I share the same gospel as LDS Christians. I like what the Apostle Paul states in this particular verse. It is only God who can shine light into our dark hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 2 Cor - Paul

The Biblical historical gospel found in scripture alone: Monergism.com :: Classic Articles and Resources of the Historic Christian Faith
 
F

Fish-Hunter

Rejoice in the Lord!
Katzpur said:
Yeah, I kind of thought you'd find something wrong with them. Well, to me the gospel of Jesus Christ encompasses all of these things: the resurrection, salvation, love, and obedience. Those are the things Paul was writing about.

Forgive the misunderstanding, Fish. For some reason, I thought you wanted us to address Paul's 13 epistles. I can't imagine where on earth I would have gotten that idea. Now, we're just supposed to zero in on Romans 1 through 4. I guess that's the "LDS Challenge." I'd better get right on it before you change your mind again and tell me to address one verse in particular since the rest really aren't part of "the Biblical gospel according to the Apostle Paul." These moving targets can be so frustrating!
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For clarification, we are using the 13 Epsitles of Paul in regards to the Gospel of God's grace. Romans chapter 1 through chapter 4 is specific in regards to the gospel of Christ. Yet, the gospel is found throughout the 13 Epistles, especially the Book of Galatians and Romans. Paul speaks on other topics too in the 13 Epistles, but we are focusing on the gospel in the thesis statement found in Romans 1:16-17.

Romans 1:16-17:

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
 
F

Fish-Hunter

Rejoice in the Lord!
*Paul* said:
If you do them for righteousness then yes. If you do them to receive or contribute to salvation then yes it is an insult because the price for your salvation has been paid in full.


No, keeping His commandments is good but to imagine that it is necessary to supplement the atonement with these is.

Well you can't get any cheaper than free, but it is only free to us, it cost God the death of His only begotten Son, nothing cheap about that.


Epistle to Romans 9:30-32 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

It is plain in the passage above that righteousness is attained by faith, faithfulness is not mentioned here. Faithfulness is what you often talk about i.e keeping the commandments, persevering etc. These things are good and right in their proper usage but to seek righteousness by them is folly for righteousness comes by faith and no other way. Righteousness is the gift of God received at justification which we receive when we believe and at that moment, before we do any good deeds at all. Christ Himself is our only righteousness and the only righteousness acceptable to God for He is perfect. Even our best good deeds are tainted with our sinful hands.
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Hi *Paul*,

We must have the same Heavenly Father, adopted into His family by grace alone...chosen before the foundation of the world to the praise of His glorious grace. Since we have been saved by grace alone through faith alone, by Christ alone, there is no boasting in the flesh. Keep sharing the truth in love brother.

Ephesians 1

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
 
madhatter85

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Fish-Hunter said:
For clarification, we are using the 13 Epsitles of Paul in regards to the Gospel of God's grace. Romans chapter 1 through chapter 4 is specific in regards to the gospel of Christ. Yet, the gospel is found throughout the 13 Epistles, especially the Book of Galatians and Romans. Paul speaks on other topics too in the 13 Epistles, but we are focusing on the gospel in the thesis statement found in Romans 1:16-17.

Romans 1:16-17:

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
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Here's a question, Do you believe the entire bible to be the word of God or do you believe that only the 13 Episltes are the word of God.

and if you believe that only the 13 epistles rather than the whole bible is the word of God, why do you believe there would have been more written?

also, feel free to check out the 1on 1 so that i can clarify what you think about how our church regards the bible. thanks.
 
F

Fish-Hunter

Rejoice in the Lord!
Katzpur said:
To begin with, I think a lot of people (Mormons and non-Mormons) use the terms "sola fide" and "sola gratia" interchangeable...
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Grace alone and faith alone are not interchangeable. We are saved by grace alone through the instrument of faith alone. Sinners are saved by the blood of Christ and the entire work of Christ on their behaf. The person and work of Christ is the sole basis of saving faith. It is trusting in Christ alone that God justifies the wicked. Actually, the perfect life and death of Christ merits or earns salvation to whom God applies the saving grace through the instrument of faith. Faith in itself cannot save. Faith is trust or belief in something. If you place your faith in the wrong christ, or the wrong gospel, that faith does not save. Faith comes be hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ through the proclamation of the biblical gospel, received by those whom the Holy Spirit opens the heart to hear and recieved the great good news of God.
 
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