LDS beliefs and the Bible

[SoyLeche]

The Webster Dictionary is secular, unbias, and neutral. Does it really bother you that a neutral secular source does not consider Mormonism to be Christianity? :sorry1: . Within our debate, secular neutral unbias sources are good!

Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

[SoyLeche]

Of course, others group us with Christians:

FAMILIES OF CHRISTIAN SECTS AND DENOMINATIONS

List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christian Denominations and Sects in the Yahoo! Directory

STH | Library | Guides | Christian Denominations

It isn't surprising that there is some confusion - people can't seem to agree on what the definition of "Christian" should be.

There are some definitions here that would include Mormons easily. Others are even more exclusive than the one you provided:

christian - Definitions from Dictionary.com

 

[SoyLeche]

For the record - here is the basic definition of "Christian" that I use. The wording isn't quite there yet, but the basic idea should get across:

Christian: One who holds Jesus Christ as their highest moral/religious authority.

 

[Starfish]

Can we all at least agree that there are two different Faiths depending on what one accepts as divine Holy Revelation? The Mormon Religion believes that the Holy Bible is insufficient revelation from God. The Christian Religion believes that the Holy Bible is sufficient revelation from God.

1. Bible Alone = Historical Christian Faith

1. Bible + Book of Mormon + Doctrine and Covenants + Pearl of Great Price = Mormon Religion

I agree.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

For the record - here is the basic definition of "Christian" that I use. The wording isn't quite there yet, but the basic idea should get across:

Christian: One who holds Jesus Christ as their highest moral/religious authority.

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. - Mat 24:24

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. - Mark 13:22

The scriptures clearly teach that there would be many false christs in the world. There is only one true Christ, and many false Christs claiming to be the One true Christ. Do you believe in the Islamic Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the Hindu Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the Jehovah Witness Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the Jesus Seminar Christ, or the new age Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the historical Jesus Christ as revealed in scripture alone agreed among Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant Christians? I would say that the Mormon Jesus Christ is different than all that I noted above.

John 10:27:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

John 10:26:
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

John 8:24:
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

 

[McBell]

For the record - here is the basic definition of "Christian" that I use. The wording isn't quite there yet, but the basic idea should get across:

Christian: One who holds Jesus Christ as their highest moral/religious authority.

I define Christian as:

ANY belief system that has Jesus Christ in it's hierarchy whose members claim the title "Christian."
​

this would of course leave out the Muslims, because even though Jesus Christ in in their hierarchy, they do not claim the title "Christian."

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I define Christian as:

ANY belief system that has Jesus Christ in it's hierarchy whose members claim the title "Christian."​

this would of course leave out the Muslims, because even though Jesus Christ in in their hierarchy, they do not claim the title "Christian."

I find it extremely interesting that someone who is hostile to Christianity continues to come to the support of the Mormons. There is quite a pattern here. Actually, Mormonism and Islam have much in common. Study it and see if you can find the similarities including the visions and angelic delivery of revelation, and exclusive prophets that rescue Christianity from apostasy. .

 

[McBell]

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. - Mat 24:24

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. - Mark 13:22

The scriptures clearly teach that there would be many false christs in the world. There is only one true Christ, and many false Christs claiming to be the One true Christ. Do you believe in the Islamic Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the Hindu Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the Jehovah Witness Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the Jesus Seminar Christ, or the new age Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the historical Jesus Christ as revealed in scripture alone agreed among Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant Christians? I would say that the Mormon Jesus Christ is different than all that I noted above.

John 10:27:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

John 10:26:
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

John 8:24:
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

Interestingly enough, you have merely shown how Mormon beliefs differ from yours.
You have not shown which, if either, beliefs are correct,
Rather, you have only shown how they (Mormon beliefs) differ from your beliefs.

Please be so kind as to show how it is that YOUR Christ is the one true Christ.

 

[SoyLeche]

I find it extremely interesting that someone who is hostile to Christianity continues to come to the support of the Mormons. There is quite a pattern here.

I find it interesting that the ones who claim to be the "true Christians" tend to be the ones who exemplify the values that Christ taught the least

 

[McBell]

I find it extremely interesting that someone who is hostile to Christianity continues to come to the support of the Mormons. There is quite a pattern here.

I am not hostile to Christianity.
I am hostile to those who do not know what they are talking about.
I am hostile towards those who think logical fallacies prove their point.
I am hostile to those who repeat the same nonsense ad nauseum thinking it will suddenly become truth/fact.

Think about it for a minute.
That is, if you can think outside your puny little box...

 

[SoyLeche]

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. - Mat 24:24

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. - Mark 13:22

The scriptures clearly teach that there would be many false christs in the world. There is only one true Christ, and many false Christs claiming to be the One true Christ. Do you believe in the Islamic Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the Hindu Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the Jehovah Witness Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the Jesus Seminar Christ, or the new age Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the historical Jesus Christ as revealed in scripture alone agreed among Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant Christians? I would say that the Mormon Jesus Christ is different than all that I noted above.

John 10:27:
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

John 10:26:
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

John 8:24:
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

Feel free to add qualifiers to the term that I have defined. I am attempting to define the whole group - you go ahead and subdivide that group however you like.

BTW - I don't deny any of the groups you have mentioned the title "Christian" (except possibly Muslims and Hindus, but I'm flexible on that even).

 

[SoyLeche]

Actually, Mormonism and Islam have much in common. Study it and see if you can find the simlarities including the visions and angelic messageners, and exclusive prophets that rescues Christianity from apostasy. .

I like how your type always seems to go here. "Well, look! Mormonism and Islam have a lot in common, and we all KNOW that Islam is of the devil - so by association..."

 

[McBell]

Actually, Mormonism and Islam have much in common. Study it and see if you can find the similarities including the visions and angelic delivery of revelation, and exclusive prophets that rescue Christianity from apostasy. .

So what?
even your definition of Christian and the Muslims have much in common.
And your definition of Christian also has much in common with Mormon beliefs.

So your sad little attempt at guilt by association has literally backfired in your face.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I like how your type always seems to go here. "Well, look! Mormonism and Islam have a lot in common, and we all KNOW that Islam is of the devil - so by association..."

I never made a comment like that. The Prophet Mohamed and the Prophet Joseph Smith had very similar cloudy visions and visits from angels of light with a new set of revelation to restore apostate Christianity. Who knows, maybe Mormons and Historical Christianity are wrong and Islam is right in regards to the apostasy and the restoration. Islam has so much more followers than Mormonism. I'm not sure if Mormonism is consider a major world religion either. It's probably too new with too few members to be be in the same category of world religions like Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism, correct?

World Regions Overview

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921143.html

 

[Fish-Hunter]

So what?
even your definition of Christian and the Muslims have much in common.
And your definition of Christian also has much in common with Mormon beliefs.

So your sad little attempt at guilt by association has literally backfired in your face.

Please continue to post your support for Mormonism as a non-Christian. I'm sure both Christians and Mormons appreciate your participation on this thread. Here is an additional netural source which does not include Mormonism with Christianity.

Christianity: History, Beliefs of Christian Religion. Life of Jesus Christ. Quotes Pictures

 

[SoyLeche]

I never made a comment like that. The Prophet Mohamed and the Prophet Joseph Smith had very similar cloudy visions and visits from angels of light with a new set of revelation to restore apostate Christianity. Who knows, maybe Mormons and Historical Christianity are wrong and Islam is right in regards to the apostasy and the restoration. Islam has so much more followers than Mormonism. I'm not sure if Mormonism is consider a major world religion either. It's probably too new with too few members to be be in the same category of world religions like Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism, correct?

World Regions Overview

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921143.html

I'm familiar with Islam. I'm also familiar with the similarities between Islam and Mormonism. I'm just not sure what the point of bringing it up was.

 

[SoyLeche]

Please continue to post your support for Mormonism as a non-Christian. I'm sure both Christians and Mormons appreciate your participation on this thread. Here is an additional netural source which does not include Mormonism with Christianity.

Christianity: History, Beliefs of Christian Religion. Life of Jesus Christ. Quotes Pictures

Once you realize that Mestemia's support is much less a support of Mormonism than it is a support of Reason, you'll be on your way to understanding something in this thread.

And, once again - I don't give a flying fig about your "neutral sources". I've already given more that list Mormonism as a part of Christianity than you have that don't - and none of them matter except to indicate that there is no concensus on the subject.

 

[Katzpur]

The Webster Dictionary is secular, unbias, and neutral. Does it really bother you that a neutral secular source does not consider Mormonism to be Christianity? :sorry1: . Within our debate, secular neutral unbias sources are good!

Webster's may be unbiased. However, if you want to continue along this line of thinking, one of Webster's definitions of "Apostle" is "any of the twelve administrative officials of the Mormon Church." Is that correct or not? If Webster considers the LDS leadership to be true Apostles, maybe the whole issue of authority is a moot point. On the other hand, there is no such thing as "the Mormon Church." So apparently, as unbiased as Webster's is, it is not always accurate.

 

[Katzpur]

Okay, please explain your answer. Even Roman Catholics and Orthodox share that the Holy Bible is complete revelation from God. This is confirmed by Katzpur too, understanding that sacred Roman Catholic tradition is not considered additional revelation from God by Rome.

Roman Catholic tradition may not be considered to be "revelation" but it is extra-biblical and it is doctrinally binding.

How can you say we have the same Faith since we have a different God? I worship the Almighty Triune God with different attributes that the God that you believe in. We believe in mutually exclusive gospels and believe in mutually exclusive Holy revelation.

Okay. I believe in the four gospels found in the New Testament and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Which gospels do you believe in, and which God do you believe in?

 

[Katzpur]

Do you believe in the Islamic Jesus Christ?[/quoteNo.

Do you believe in the Hindu Jesus Christ?

No.

Do you believe in the Jehovah Witness Jesus Christ?

Do you believe in the Jesus Seminar Christ, or the new age Jesus Christ?

Do you believe in the historical Jesus Christ as revealed in scripture alone agreed among Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant Christians?

The Jesus of the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant Christians is not revealed in scripture alone. That Jesus is revealed in the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds. I do not believe in Him.

I would say that the Mormon Jesus Christ is different than all that I noted above.

I would agree. The Mormon Jesus Christ is the one revealed in the Scriptures, not the one revealed in the Creeds.