LDS beliefs and the Bible

[Sola'lor]

Please compare what you have been taught by the Mormon religion to the Holy Bible.

I have, and it fits perfectly together.

The thread is about comparing the LDS religion to the Holy Bible. As you can see...the Mormon religion cannot be supported by the Holy Scriptures.

Actually the LDs religion is supported by Holy Scriptures. We are supported by the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, all of which are our Holy Scriptures.

Our church cannot be supported by the Bible alone. That's the reason we use other Books of Scripture.

Therefore, the Mormon religion has to create a book called the Book of Mormon described as Another Testament of Jesus Chrst (bait and switch).

No, The Book of Mormon is switching anything away from the Bible. It is supporting and clarifying the Bible.

 

[Scott C.]

Zoe and Vic, I presented my view and will have to leave it at that. It's late and I need to get up for work early. Have a good night.

 

[zoe and vic]

I have, and it fits perfectly together.

No, The Book of Momron is switching anything away from the Bible. It is supporting and clarifying the Bible.

God is perfect! Be perfect as the Lord your God is perfect.

God is the Word. The perfect Word of God. Jesus is flawless. The blemish free gift that also lives in us. Christ in you is the perfect will of God, but you must be born again to be partakers of the fullness of Christ and be witnesses to His mighty power.

It's not about rules and laws it's about the manifold gifts of grace.

"To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—"

 

[zoe and vic]

Zoe and Vic, I presented my view and will have to leave it at that. It's late and I need to get up for work early. Have a good night.

Thanks for your candor! I love you, bro.

 

[Sola'lor]

I agree.
The truth presented to the Jews is the OT. The promised Messiah is a reality in the Jewish culture of today and is written in the OT, they just choose not to see that it was fulfilled in Jesus. Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies concerning Himself including the resurrection which also was prophesied.
The most important thing to remember is that God will speak to you. He will witness and confirm to you, personally. He will lead you into all truth Himself.
Most of the people who are truly unwilling to see the truth in it's simplicity are defending something they have been convinced is true, so they defend what they have been taught and rightly so.

I agree with this 100%

I still am waiting for the LDS' on this site to explain Sam and Lemuel and the other new revelation of God's glory that would be deemed scripture and can be found residing in the bosom of the Father.

What do Samuel and Lemuel have specifically to do with anything? Is there something specific to them that you disagree with?

The Son is the Logos, THE revelation, the Word of God.

What is the Logos? I've never heard this term used in the Bible before.

In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.
So if God is the Word, and the Word is God, and the Word is the revelation: the Logos, and the Logos is the Son, and the Son is Jesus. That would make Jesus the revelation, the Word of God. So He is the perfect, flawless, sinless, blemish free Word of God. And He can be found 100% in the Father. Any revelation outside of the Father did not come from God, but from man.

I would agree but I'm unsure what this 'Logos' thing is.

{quote]Jesus is the Son.
The Son is in the Father.
Jesus can be found 100% in the Father.[/quote]

So are you meaning this literally or figuratively. I have a hard time understanding how God can have Jesus literally living inside his body. I would think it woudl make God some weird deformed being.

Any revelation outside of the Father does not come from God, but from man, because Jesus does not say anything of Himself, He only does and says what His Father does and says.

I agree 100%

Lemuel and Sam and the other characters in the narrative of Mr. Smith are my question. If Jesus said it, "another testament of Jesus Christ," then where can I find it in the Father?

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. Are you asking that if Jesus said the words ,"another testament of Jesus Christ," where you can find it? I'm not sure I've seen anywhere where Christ said, "another testament of Jesus Christ." Another Testament of Jesus Christ is the phrase used to describe the Book of Mormon.

Do you understand that the Spirit is the same from everlasting to everlasting? There is no revision of the Holy Spirit.

I agree. Because the Spirit is not a book and cannt be rewritten or revised. He is a Spirit, an intelligent being.

That in the case of the Old and New Testament God does not make commandment on the issue. Therefore, an agenda being taught as commandment that does not reside in the Father is not from God.

Which issue? Sorry I forgot if this original post was about polygamy or not.

Jesus only said what His Father said. His Father said everything that is the Word. All commandment was given to His chosen people. For the Mormon's to even have commandment concerning polygamy is telling. This commandment is not in the Father, or the Son revealed to the Jews who He was revealed to, therefore it is doctrine of men being taught for commandment.

Actually God has commanded people to live polygamy in the past. And other times He has commanded them not to. It is according to God's will for the people involved. I'm curious how you can say that polygamy is not in God's law whatsoever. Because that would mean you know God's will 100% perfectly. Are you claiming you know God's will 100% perfectly?

 

[Sola'lor]

plural marriages were practiced in the OT the law changed when Christ became flesh and dwelt among us.

It was practiced sometimes in the OT.

Your prophet lived in the NT era. hence to be logically concluded to be of the same God as the bible, he should have the same Dcotrine as Christ.

So the God of the OT is different than the NT?
And the LDS doctrine is the same doctrine as Christ. It is What Christ has revealed for us in our modern times.

To use your friends sola'lor's argument
LDS; accepts polygamy
Bible neither accepts nor rejects polygamy (i would say it rejects polygamy but let us just use your brother in faith's argument)

So if it neither accepts or rejects it any commandments concerning it can not be against what Christ taught.

Just obeservation, these doctrines are different.
Gal 1:8 states;"8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Yes it is your observation But it is our observation that our Church is Christ's restored church in these times. And thus any commandments to the church come from God.

Granting without accepting your contention sir, therefore using your own logic it will be flawed to accept also polygamy because it does not mention acceptance either.
AND AS MATTER OF FACT, THE LDS DOCTRINE AT ONE POINT ACCEPTED POLYGAMY, WHICH ACCORDING TO YOU ANY REASON THEY MIGHT HAVE TO ACCEPT IT WOULD BE FLAWED BECAUSE THE BIBLE DOES NOT MENTION ACCEPTANCE OF POLYGAMY
TSK TSK TSK!

But the Bible does not mention it's rejection either. So therefor any acceptance of it does not go against Christ's doctrine.

then lack of specifying wouldn't mean polygamy is accepted either...KEEP THIS IN YOUR MIND AS YOU READ ON MY FRIEND

Agreed. It would mean that it is open to be accepted or rejected at any given time.

Granting without accepting that biblical doctrine NIETHER accepts nor rejects polygamy, LDS DOCTRINE WILL STILL TURN OUT TO BE A DIFFERENT GOSPEL THAN THAT OF CHRIST. HOW?
LDS: Accepts polygamy
Bible: (according to you) niether accopts nor rejects polygamy.

Actually we rejected then accepted and now reject polygamy. And since the Bible neither condemns nore approves of polygamy, both it's acceptance or rejection are BOTH in line with what Christ taught. Therefore the LDS church's doctrine is still the same Gospel the Christ taught.

THEN MR SOLA'LOR IT WILL BE A FLAWED ARGUMENT AS WELL TO SAY POLYGAMY IS ACCEPTED JUST BECAUSE THE BIBLE DOES NOT MENTION POLYGAMY IS ACCEPTED.

No actually it would be a flawed arguement to say that Polygamy is required docrtine all the time just because the Bible doesn't mention it being accepted. Just as it is a flawed arguement to say that it is condemned all the time because it doesn't mention it. Therefore that leave it open to be either rejected opr accepted at any given time.

WHO EVER WROTE YOUR DOCTRINE ACCEPTING POLYGAMY HAD A FLAWED JUDGEMENT OF PUTTING IT THERE. WHICH ACTUALLY CORROBORATES YOUR STAND THAT YOUR BELEIFS ARE BASED ON ERRONEOUS, CONTRADICTING AND INCOMPELTE SCRIPTURE.

No. because we have determined that it was neither accepted nor rejected in Christ's teachings in Jerusalem. Therefore as I've said before. It is open to be either accepted or rejected at any given time.

And yes I agree my beliefs are based on imperfect scripture. Anything written by man is imperfect. However the Word of God contained in those scriptures is perfect and complete.

THATS EXACTLY HOW YOUR RELIGIONS DOCTRINES TURN OUT. FLAWED!

In your opinon.

To add insult to injury, 1 Tim 3:2 stated one wife and Mat 19:6 and mat 19:9 used wife in singular form. further more Eph 5:31 said two becomes one flesh.[/quote

yes because they are speaking about the condition of monogamy. They are giving guidelines for the condition of monogamy. That means they are only specifying about mongamy.

Then if i say REAL christians are allowed just one wife and one husband i am closer to truth than you are!

Not really. It would depend on how closely your monogamous relationship match that specified in those scriptures. Since polygamy isn't specified there were not specific guidleins give at that time for those in that relationship.

 

[Sola'lor]

but however you explain it LDS doctrine contradicts biblical doctrine.

How so? You have yet to present and arguement that holds water against what is actually written in the Bible.

Two contradicting concepts cannot be both true and Gal 1:18 states 'But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

That verse should be sufficient! LDS has a different gospel from the Christ of the bible.

Yes it is suffecient to know that if anyone teaches a different gospel than Christ's they should be condemned. And I agree with it. So if I find anyone who does teach a different gospel I will leave it to God to condemn them. And I will do my best to offer them the truth. If they reject it it is between them and God.

How would you feel if you asked someone asked you to but milk for your cereal and bought a coffee creamer arguing it is the closes thing to milk that he saw?

In respect to the analogy, that would be disobeying the commandments. But also in respect to te analogy, that is outside of what we are discussing. We are discussing those things that aren't specified. We know what is specified.

 

[Sola'lor]

God is perfect! Be perfect as the Lord your God is perfect.

I agree.

God is the Word. The perfect Word of God. Jesus is flawless. The blemish free gift that also lives in us. Christ in you is the perfect will of God, but you must be born again to be partakers of the fullness of Christ and be witnesses to His mighty power.

I'm assuming that by saying God is the Word that you are using that figuratively. If So then I agree. But if you are saying that God is literally words, or a book, then I would disagree.

It's not about rules and laws it's about the manifold gifts of grace.

It depends. Only through obedience to the Law can we recieve the atonement. God has given us those laws. They weren't just put here for us to look at. They were put here to guide us to become perfect even as God is perfect.

We cannot become like God simply by saying "Christ is my Saviour" and then going about our merry way and ignoring God's commandments.

"To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—"

 

[zoe and vic]

What do Samuel and Lemuel have specifically to do with anything? Is there something specific to them that you disagree with?... I'm not quite sure what you are asking. Are you asking that if Jesus said the words ,"another testament of Jesus Christ," where you can find it? I'm not sure I've seen anywhere where Christ said, "another testament of Jesus Christ." Another Testament of Jesus Christ is the phrase used to describe the Book of Mormon.

If the Book of Mormon is a record of Jesus' interaction with His people then the Father would have told us about it. There would have been some prophecy concerning it.
Do you know who the Father is?

What is the Logos? I've never heard this term used in the Bible before.

In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates achanging universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose inJohn 1.[/FONT]

{quote]Jesus is the Son.
The Son is in the Father.
Jesus can be found 100% in the Father.[/quote]

So are you meaning this literally or figuratively. I have a hard time understanding how God can have Jesus literally living inside his body. I would think it woudl make God some weird deformed being.

This is literal. Jesus is the Word and He came in the Flesh. All of the glory of the Father is in Him and He is in the bosom of the Father. He fulfilled all that His Father had spoken of Him and He declared the Father to be. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one: Elohim. Nothing the Son said wouldn't be found in the Father.

I agree. Because the Spirit is not a book and cannt be rewritten or revised. He is a Spirit, an intelligent being.

"God is Spirit," "God is the Word," and "God is the Father." He has been spoken, written and manifested in the flesh.

Actually God has commanded people to live polygamy in the past. And other times He has commanded them not to. It is according to God's will for the people involved. I'm curious how you can say that polygamy is not in God's law whatsoever. Because that would mean you know God's will 100% perfectly. Are you claiming you know God's will 100% perfectly?

God's will is in His word! "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

"Your statutes are my delight; they are my counselors."

If you believe God's Word to be true and perfect then you have set to His seal that God is true and He will cause you to know His will and He will put His law in your heart and cause you to walk in His statutes, and keep His judgments.

All you would need do is give yourself over to God and His will for your life. Just ask Him to confirm His word in you and shut those doors that are not His will and He will do it.

 

[zoe and vic]

But the Bible does not mention it's rejection either. So therefor any acceptance of it does not go against Christ's doctrine.

The Father never made commandment concerning having many wives. So the commandment in the Book of Mormon which predates the restoration is flawed in that it contains commandment concerning polygamy.

Especially since Mr. Smith named it "another testament of Christ." If he would have named it something else perhaps... But Jesus Christ is in the bosom of the Father and the commandment concerning polygamy is not in the Father, so it's just the doctrine of men being taught as commandment. It's not God's Word on the subject... and God's Word is perfect... and God is the Word and Jesus is the Word.

And we live in Christ when we are born again: "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

 

[Sola'lor]

The Father never made commandment concerning having many wives. So the commandment in the Book of Mormon which predates the restoration is flawed in that it contains commandment concerning polygamy.

God never gave a commandment concerning it, in the Bible.

Especially since Mr. Smith named it "another testament of Christ." If he would have named it something else perhaps...

I still don't understand what you are trying to say.

But Jesus Christ is in the bosom of the Father and the commandment concerning polygamy is not in the Father, so it's just the doctrine of men being taught as commandment. It's not God's Word on the subject... and God's Word is perfect... and God is the Word and Jesus is the Word.

So you are claiming to have a perfect knowledge of God's word?

And we live in Christ when we are born again: "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

Yep I agree. My whole life is the process of being born again. I'm trying to change my nature from the natural man to that which is holy. This process began when I was baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and then recieved the gift of the Holy Ghost. I guess some could say that that was the moment I was born again. But for me being born again is a process of changing the nature of one's being.

 

[zoe and vic]

"I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me."

"I and my Father are one."

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

"If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."

"O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me."

You don't know who the Father is do you? If you don't then you don't know the Son.

 

[Sola'lor]

You don't know who the Father is do you?

What makes you say this?

 

[uss_bigd]

An exception would mean another gospel already as it will come out different.

Ahhh...I think I just came to better understand your view (while I still disagree with it)! You feel that God will never reveal that people should do one thing in one era, but not do the same thing in another era, as that would be "another gospel". Is that what you believe? I honestly never thought of the idea that if God continues to reveal His will over time and gives some new instructions, that would necessarily constitute "another gospel".

Is it what believe? you make it sound like its my opinion.

1 Corinthians 4:6

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.


1 Corinthians 4:9
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

1 Galatians 1:8

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!


Now, what do you understand by the apostles being last, do not think of men above that which is written and other gospel than the one we preached to you?


Matthew 15:14

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Continuing revelation is basic in our church. If God reveals today that we should do something different today than we did yesterday, we don't see that as "another gospel". I see that as the "gospel in action".

Which is in violation of the apostles being last, do not think of men above that which is written and other gospel than the one we preached to you?

There are many, many, many cases of the "gospel in action" through the timely council given by living prophets to deal with the issues of our day --- none of which contradict the Bible --- but the Bible does not include such specifics for our day.

Polygamy contradicts the bible it falls under fornication

Romans 1:29,32

"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,"

"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

Here's an example. God revealed what we call the "Word of Wisdom" to Joseph Smith. This is the revelation that teaches not to use alcohol and tobacco. The revelation opens by saying "in consequence of evils and designs of conspiring men in these last days..." and then it gives the instruction.

Here, I believe that the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament revealed His will to a prophet for our day. The Word of Wisdom did not apply, at least not completely, to the New Testament Christians. They drank wine in moderation as far as I can tell.

Now, here in modern days, God says that He knows something about our day and age and he warns us living today, that we should abstain from all alcohol. Is that "another gospel"? I think not. It's the same God and Lord giving instruction for our day which did not apply in a former day. That is the beauty of modern day revelation.

good luck!

John 12:48

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.



THE WORDS THAT YOU REJECTED WILL JUDGE YOU IN THE LAST DAY.


YOU HAVE REJECTED:


1 TIM 3:2
MAT 19:9,6
1 GAL 1:8
1 COR 4:6,9
ROMANS 1:29,32

 

[uss_bigd]

Actually God has commanded people to live polygamy in the past. And other times He has commanded them not to. It is according to God's will for the people involved. I'm curious how you can say that polygamy is not in God's law whatsoever. Because that would mean you know God's will 100% perfectly. Are you claiming you know God's will 100% perfectly?

John 12:48

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.



THE WORDS THAT YOU REJECTED WILL JUDGE YOU IN THE LAST DAY.


YOU HAVE REJECTED:


1 TIM 3:2
MAT 19:9,6
1 GAL 1:8
1 COR 4:6,9
ROMANS 1:29,32


Psalm 111:10

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.


FEAR THE LORD SOLA'LOR! FEAR THE LORD!

 

[Sola'lor]

Is it what believe? you make it sound like its my opinion.

It must be It's not Biblical. The Bible is filled with accounts of God giving commandments to a certain group of people, or person, and not to another.

1 Corinthians 4:6

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

I agree. We should not but men above scriptures.

1 Corinthians 4:9
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Yes I agree. He does think that God set them forth as Apostles last. But since last isn't infront of apostles it has a different meaning than if He would have said they were set forth as the 'last apostles.'

1 Galatians 1:8

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

I definatley agree.

Now, what do you understand by the apostles being last, do not think of men above that which is written and other gospel than the one we preached to you?

That apostles should be humble, or maybe it means something else. We shouln't put the council of some guy, or people on a forum, above the scriptures. We should live by the Gospel the God tecahes, not by any other gospel.

Matthew 15:14

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Yep.

Polygamy contradicts the bible it falls under fornication

Fornication is sex before marriage. So Polygamy couldn't be fornication. Adultery is sex outside of marriage, while currently married. So in some circumstances when polygamy is condemned it woul dbe adultery. When it is not condemned it is not adultery.

Romans 1:29,32

"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,"

"Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

Opps. I think we are all worthy of death then.

Romans 1:29,32
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,"

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."


I think we're in trouble.

good luck!

Yes to both of us.

John 12:48

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.



THE WORDS THAT YOU REJECTED WILL JUDGE YOU IN THE LAST DAY.

What words have I rejected?

YOU HAVE REJECTED:

1 TIM 3:2
MAT 19:9,6
1 GAL 1:8
1 COR 4:6,9
ROMANS 1:29,32

But I haven't rejected those. I may have rejected your interpretation of those. But then the Bible doesn't tell me I have to live by your interpretation of the Bible. It says that(not in my own words, but the words of the apostles):

Galatians 1:8
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

So as long as I am accepting their words I am ok.

 

[Sola'lor]

FEAR THE LORD SOLA'LOR! FEAR THE LORD!

I do. Trust me. I do.

 

[Sola'lor]

I think this whole thread is a great tribute to how neither group can conclusively prove who's views are correct by using the Bible by itself. That is primarily why LDS have other scriptures. With other scriptures we know what God means in those passages in the Bible that are often debated. With out them we just go in circles because the only thing we have is our own personal interpretation of God's Word.

 

[Scott C.]

Is it what believe? you make it sound like its my opinion.

There are so many quotes and ideas in one post that it makes it difficult to nail down a point. Let me focus on one idea, that of continuing revelation. Let's ignore polygamy for this round. I haven't ignored it in other posts, but have expressed my view.

Here's what I hear you saying:

You reject continuing revelation on the basis that God will never reveal a new principle of the gospel or give his people new direction on what they should or should not do, because that would constitute "another gospel" or a "revision of the Holy Spirit". You believe this to be the case, regardless of what the revelation is about. There's no need to examine the revelation and its content, since if it's new information or even further clarification on the Bible, it's "another gospel". You believe that Paul's warning concerning another gospel means that there will be no future prophets, because no matter what a prophet could say, if it's in addition to the Bible, it must be "another gospel".

If that is what you believe, then yes, I believe that is your opinion.

I believe that the gospel of "no further revelation" is not the gospel that is taught in the Bible. Therefore to teach that the scripture canon is closed is to teach "another gospel".

Also, the apostles being sent "last" does not mean that they are the final messengers from God, it simply means that they are the last ones who have come so far or the latest to come.

 

[SoyLeche]

Per sola'lor's arguments the bible and the LDS doctrine has tihis difference

LDS: accepts polygamy
bible neither rejects nor accepts polygamy (

how can you call this "the same gospels? why your insistence?
This is not even my arguments its your brother in faith's arguments:slap:

I say all cats are mammals. You say nothing about whether or not cats are mammals.

HOW CAN WE BOTH BE CORRECT?????

(seriously - take a logic class)