Kosher coffee?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Just wondering about something: I've noticed lately that even within one brand of coffee, some blends will carry the symbol of a Kosher certification organization and some won't.

This got me to wondering: is there something that might be found in coffee that would be non-Kosher? If so, what would it be?

 

[Levite]

Just wondering about something: I've noticed lately that even within one brand of coffee, some blends will carry the symbol of a Kosher certification organization and some won't.

This got me to wondering: is there something that might be found in coffee that would be non-Kosher? If so, what would it be?

A lot of things these days are labeled with hashgachot (symbols of certification of kashrut) that have zero need for hashgachah (kashrut certification or oversight). In part it stems out of a trend in the Haredi (ultra-Orthodox) community toward extreme over-zealousness in kashrut: things which once upon a time required no hashgachah, or were taken as a matter of course to be kosher, now require hashgachot to reassure the Haredi consumer base that their kosher homes could not possibly be stricter in observance. In part, it also has to do with the turning of hashgachah into a big business (which both feeds into the trend to hyper-strictness in Orthodoxy, and is itself fed by that trend): while once upon a time, mashgichim (rabbis or scholars trained in the laws of kashrut, who do the hashgachah) mostly had many jobs, and didn't make most of their money off hashgachah, which they did in some part as a communal service, to improve life for all Jews; now they make a full-time job of it, and insist that more and more things have hashgachah, and so increase their profits.

By all sane rights, coffee should require no hashgachah. Hell, I've seen hashgachot on bottles of water! Water!! If anything is less in need of hashgachah, I can't think what it would be, save maybe air. But you'll see certification on all kinds of crazy things these days.

Most of us in the non-Orthodox world don't pay a lot of attention to these things: we know, roughly speaking, what is and is not likely to need hashgachah, and we check those things before buying them. But nobody outside the Orthodox world looks for kosher ice cubes or coffee or fresh fruits, or stuff like that. Putting hashgachah on things of that nature is what is known in Jewish Law as minhag shtut (a custom of idiocy).

 

[Harmonious]

However, coffee with flavoring NEEDS a Hashgacha, because of what is in the preservatives, flavoring, or coloring.

Starbucks coffee used to be considered kosher, but they had their certificate yanked when they started using a coloring that was made of bug parts. I don't remember the name of the dye, but that was the problem.

If you are getting regular Maxwell House, or Chock-Full-o'-Nuts, or Folgers, or one of those brands that is nothing more than simple coffee beans, I'm with Levite.

However, once the brand has "French Vanilla" or any other flavoring, the need to check to see if there are possible non-kosher contaminants becomes real.

 

[Levite]

However, coffee with flavoring NEEDS a Hashgacha, because of what is in the preservatives, flavoring, or coloring.

Starbucks coffee used to be considered kosher, but they had their certificate yanked when they started using a coloring that was made of bug parts. I don't remember the name of the dye, but that was the problem.

If you are getting regular Maxwell House, or Chock-Full-o'-Nuts, or Folgers, or one of those brands that is nothing more than simple coffee beans, I'm with Levite.

However, once the brand has "French Vanilla" or any other flavoring, the need to check to see if there are possible non-kosher contaminants becomes real.

I respectfully disagree. Unless there is some reasonable suspicion that a flavored coffee would need hashgachah (i.e., "Try our meat-flavored frappucino!") I would be hard-pressed to believe it necessary.

I understand that right now, things work differently in the Orthodox world, and it is of course beyond question in that community that a flavored coffee would need hashgachah, and otherwise one could end up drinking bug parts. But there is an extremely strong and traditionally-grounded argument for saying that a coloring agent made with bug parts as one of its ingredients added to a coffee, halachically should be nullified: it's a davar chadash (something which has been chemically or artificially completely transformed from its original nature into something utterly foreign and no longer "food" in and of itself, not added for flavor or for any direct benefit of nutrition but for a chemical side effect of the mixture, and it constitutes probably less than one percent of the beverage contents rendering it not merely batel b'shishim (de facto nullified as less than one part in sixty) but batel b'elef (nullified as less than one part in a thousand), considering that the bug parts are one ingredient of a mixture that is itself an ingredient of less than a percent of total volume. Any one of those three issues ought to be enough to consider the coffee kosher, yet today, not all three are enough to make it kosher in the Orthodox communities. This level of stricture is new, and represents a very specific halachic trend in the Orthodox world: but it is one very specific ****ah (legal viewpoint or process), not the only one, or even the most traditionally defensible one.

I am not trying to quarrel, but it seems important for non-Jewish readers to know that this particular aspect of kashrut observance is a rather pointed bone of contention between halachic communities, and something very much subject to interpretation.

 

[dantech]

I respectfully disagree. Unless there is some reasonable suspicion that a flavored coffee would need hashgachah (i.e., "Try our meat-flavored frappucino!") I would be hard-pressed to believe it necessary.

I understand that right now, things work differently in the Orthodox world, and it is of course beyond question in that community that a flavored coffee would need hashgachah, and otherwise one could end up drinking bug parts. But there is an extremely strong and traditionally-grounded argument for saying that a coloring agent made with bug parts as one of its ingredients added to a coffee, halachically should be nullified: it's a davar chadash (something which has been chemically or artificially completely transformed from its original nature into something utterly foreign and no longer "food" in and of itself, not added for flavor or for any direct benefit of nutrition but for a chemical side effect of the mixture, and it constitutes probably less than one percent of the beverage contents rendering it not merely batel b'shishim (de facto nullified as less than one part in sixty) but batel b'elef (nullified as less than one part in a thousand), considering that the bug parts are one ingredient of a mixture that is itself an ingredient of less than a percent of total volume. Any one of those three issues ought to be enough to consider the coffee kosher, yet today, not all three are enough to make it kosher in the Orthodox communities. This level of stricture is new, and represents a very specific halachic trend in the Orthodox world: but it is one very specific ****ah (legal viewpoint or process), not the only one, or even the most traditionally defensible one.

I am not trying to quarrel, but it seems important for non-Jewish readers to know that this particular aspect of kashrut observance is a rather pointed bone of contention between halachic communities, and something very much subject to interpretation.

For Batel Beshishim to be applicable, the ingredient had to have been accidentally added. Like say, a drop of milk that accidentally leaked in a platter of lamb. But in the case of the coffee, it is part of the ingredients.

Another thing, the problem some have with coffee, is that it's roasted. There is a Makhloket between whether or not we are allowed to eat from bishul goy. And there is also a Makhloket as to whether or not roasting is a bishul. This is why we "ultra" orthodox need hekhsher on coffee. However, I do agree that hekhsher on unflavored water is completely useless.

Now, for the fruit you mentioned. Any unprocessed fruit needs no hekhsher... Same for fish. If I see it myself with scales and fins, I know it's kosher and do not need an hekhsher.

With all due respect, to call it a minhag shtut, I think, is not very informed. It is more part of halakha nowadays than it is a minhag. Now say it is a minhag, this minhag would date to the first kosher seal ever made which was actually done by the Cohen Gadol in the times of the temple. He would stamp the jugs of Olive Oil used to light the Menorah. What exactly would make Olive Oil non-kosher in those times where no chemical products or additives were put in oil? It was pure Olive Oil.. Yet the Cohen Gadol thought it was important to seal the jugs with his kosher stamp. So by calling this minhag a minhag shtut, you would be talking about a minhag that dates all the way back to the Cohen Gadol.

There is no doubt that the heksher companies are businesses looking to make money just like any other business. However, the reputable ones would not certify something as kosher if it wasn't for the simple risk of losing all their clients after having been proven of wrong doing. Now certifying something as kosher that doesn't need certification can't hurt anyone. The Jews that don't know enough about kashrut to be able to make the judgement calls on their own need these certifications. Those of us who simply rather have our minds at ease, rather have certification on Coffee than not have it. Specially the Orthodox Jews who might be confused with the Makhloket they learned last week about roasting, bishul, coffee, bishul goy, etc.... With said seal, they are putting their minds at ease.

 

[Levite]

For Batel Beshishim to be applicable, the ingredient had to have been accidentally added. Like say, a drop of milk that accidentally leaked in a platter of lamb. But in the case of the coffee, it is part of the ingredients.

I'm still hunting down the source I came across for bitul being sometimes acceptable with intentional additions. Misplaced my kashrus notes....

But in any case, the idea of the ingredient being a davar chadash still stands. As a matter of fact, I do have sources for that, most notably being Rav Ovadyah Yosef: Yabiah Omer 8, Yoreh Deah 11.2. He specifically talks about carmine (the ingredient in question), its manufacture from insects, and why it is permitted. The Sefardic K hashgachah consistently permits carmine already, and R. Yisroel Kellemer cites Rav Ovadyah as his basis for doing so.

Another thing, the problem some have with coffee, is that it's roasted. There is a Makhloket between whether or not we are allowed to eat from bishul goy. And there is also a Makhloket as to whether or not roasting is a bishul. This is why we "ultra" orthodox need hekhsher on coffee.

Yeah, I know about the question of bishul goy. I have to say, I think it's specious in most modern applications: it's davka bishul aku"m, not simple bishul goy, and that makes a difference, because it was supposed to be a siyag against avodah zarah, first and foremost, since in ancient times non-Jews would bless or sanctify their food to their gods, which rendered it forbidden to us, no matter what was in it or how it was cooked. But today no one does that. I can dig up some sources on this, too, if necessary.

With all due respect, to call it a minhag shtut, I think, is not very informed. It is more part of halakha nowadays than it is a minhag. Now say it is a minhag, this minhag would date to the first kosher seal ever made which was actually done by the Cohen Gadol in the times of the temple. He would stamp the jugs of Olive Oil used to light the Menorah. What exactly would make Olive Oil non-kosher in those times where no chemical products or additives were put in oil? It was pure Olive Oil.. Yet the Cohen Gadol thought it was important to seal the jugs with his kosher stamp. So by calling this minhag a minhag shtut, you would be talking about a minhag that dates all the way back to the Cohen Gadol.

The olive oil in the Temple had nothing to do with kashrut, because it wasn't eaten, it was burned in the menorah. The Kohen Gadol put a seal of purity on it probably because the oil was mukdash, and so shouldn't be used by Yisraelim or for non-sacramental purposes, and to ensure it was tahor and not touched by anyone or anything tamei. Who would demand hashgachah on something not actually consumed? It makes no sense. It would have to have been for a different reason, and so using the stamp of the Kohen Gadol as a precedent for strict hashgachah doesn't hold water, IMO.

There is no doubt that the heksher companies are businesses looking to make money just like any other business. However, the reputable ones would not certify something as kosher if it wasn't for the simple risk of losing all their clients after having been proven of wrong doing. Now certifying something as kosher that doesn't need certification can't hurt anyone. The Jews that don't know enough about kashrut to be able to make the judgement calls on their own need these certifications. Those of us who simply rather have our minds at ease, rather have certification on Coffee than not have it. Specially the Orthodox Jews who might be confused with the Makhloket they learned last week about roasting, bishul, coffee, bishul goy, etc.... With said seal, they are putting their minds at ease.

Hmmm...I'm afraid I am unconvinced. But that's okay, you're quoting good Haredi halachah, and I'm just not Haredi...there was never likely to be agreement here. But whatever, it's all disagreement about how best to serve Hashem, so I say elu v'elu, and let's agree to disagree with respect for one another as yirei shamayim.

 

[Rakhel]

Who would demand hashgachah on something not actually consumed?

Kosher boiler treatment, anyone?

 

[Levite]

....

Yeah, that's pretty much the problem, right there.

 

[Stella Polaris]

I was curious about this as well, as I see Kosher labels on all my teas (black, herbal, etc) and just about everything in the pantry. I'm not joking, it's on tons of stuff, so I was confused why it was listed. It's either a little K in a circle, or a U in a circle or a K and Parve. I understand why some things would need a label, but many other things like the coffee example, never made sense to me. I too have seen it on bottled water, which was really weird.

Anyway, thanks for the answers.

 

[Harmonious]

I was curious about this as well, as I see Kosher labels on all my teas (black, herbal, etc) and just about everything in the pantry. I'm not joking, it's on tons of stuff, so I was confused why it was listed. It's either a little K in a circle, or a U in a circle or a K and Parve. I understand why some things would need a label, but many other things like the coffee example, never made sense to me. I too have seen it on bottled water, which was really weird.

Anyway, thanks for the answers.

Flavorings and dyes. If it's just leaves, it is a matter of being careful. Unless, of course, it involves grapes.

Levite might disagree with the necessity then, but Orthodox ruling is across the board when it comes to grapes and grape products - the definitely need a hechsher.

 

[Harmonious]

If something is going to process all the water in your house, it makes sense that the cleaning agents are not made from or with forbidden items.

When it comes to dish detergent, I try to be careful to get one with a hechsher, unless I know beforehand that it's fine. People used to make soap from animal fat.

Levite might argue that the product is wholly unrecognizable from its source because of chemical treatments, perhaps like the dyes for marachino cherries. But like Dan says, it's not a matter of ignoring a mass production because one or two bug parts got in. If the main source for the dye is the bug part, the fact that it no longer seems like the original source is not relevant, and counts it as forbidden, under Orthodox rulings. And from what I've seen, the Orthodox organizations are pretty consistent about such things.

 

[Tarheeler]

If something is going to process all the water in your house, it makes sense that the cleaning agents are not made from or with forbidden items.

That boiler treatment can not come into contact with a domestic water supply; it is designed to be added to steam boilers within a closed loop where the heat, and not the steam itself, is the desired end product.

If the boiler treatment is in your household water supply, you have a serious problem.

 

[Harmonious]

That boiler treatment can not come into contact with a domestic water supply; it is designed to be added to steam boilers within a closed loop where the heat, and not the steam itself, is the desired end product.

If the boiler treatment is in your household water supply, you have a serious problem.

Oh. Thank you for explaining that.

 

[Caladan]

As Levite says, today being a Kashrut inspector is a 'career'. During my previous job I've seen first hand the contempt Israeli business owners had for these inspectors. The solution for some businesses is of course not keeping Kosher at all , with a calculated risk of losing traditional customers, but in areas such as central Israel and Tel Aviv specifically I tend to think that this risk is not dramatic.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Okay... so it sounds like you've allayed my main fear: that for the kosher coffee, they make sure no cockroaches/mice/etc. Got into the roaster/grinder/etc., and for the non-kosher stuff, they aren't as careful.

Thanks, all

 

[dantech]

I'm still hunting down the source I came across for bitul being sometimes acceptable with intentional additions. Misplaced my kashrus notes....

The thing is, many halakhot permit you to do things while few others might not. This is what we call a makhloket. For this reason, in my community, we don't take the risk. By doing this random action, I do have Al Mi Lismokh, but by not doing it, All opinions agree with my actions.

But in any case, the idea of the ingredient being a davar chadash still stands. As a matter of fact, I do have sources for that, most notably being Rav Ovadyah Yosef: Yabiah Omer 8, Yoreh Deah 11.2. He specifically talks about carmine (the ingredient in question), its manufacture from insects, and why it is permitted. The Sefardic K hashgachah consistently permits carmine already, and R. Yisroel Kellemer cites Rav Ovadyah as his basis for doing so.

You are indeed right, it does stand. However, this is where I am Machmir. It can so easily be avoided. By just taking an extra two minutes and picking up a can with hechsher, i put my mind at ease.

Yeah, I know about the question of bishul goy. I have to say, I think it's specious in most modern applications: it's davka bishul aku"m, not simple bishul goy, and that makes a difference, because it was supposed to be a siyag against avodah zarah, first and foremost, since in ancient times non-Jews would bless or sanctify their food to their gods, which rendered it forbidden to us, no matter what was in it or how it was cooked. But today no one does that. I can dig up some sources on this, too, if necessary.

While that may be true, it doesn't give us the right to stop following this Halakha. A similar example would be the Kashrut of the Giraffe. It was always said to be kosher yet we never ate it because we didn't know where to perform the shekhita. Nowadays, with all the technology we have, it would be no problem at all to figure it out, yet we still don't eat it. It has become a minhag and as we know, unless a minhag would go against a halakha by contradicting it, it is very important to follow Darkei Avoteinu.

The olive oil in the Temple had nothing to do with kashrut, because it wasn't eaten, it was burned in the menorah. The Kohen Gadol put a seal of purity on it probably because the oil was mukdash, and so shouldn't be used by Yisraelim or for non-sacramental purposes, and to ensure it was tahor and not touched by anyone or anything tamei. Who would demand hashgachah on something not actually consumed? It makes no sense. It would have to have been for a different reason, and so using the stamp of the Kohen Gadol as a precedent for strict hashgachah doesn't hold water, IMO.

Well, actually, even if it hadn't been sealed, by just touching the jar, it would not have become tamay. To make it tamay, you would have to move the jar, even if sealed. Now the fact that we didn't eat this oil but used it to light the menorah would indicate a Kal Vachomer. If we need a seal on oil that is not even used to be drunk, then kal vachomer, we definitely need one for what does enter our bodies.
Also, if we need a seal for an issue of Tum'aa, the Kal Vachomer, we definitely need one for an issue of taref.

Hmmm...I'm afraid I am unconvinced. But that's okay, you're quoting good Haredi halachah, and I'm just not Haredi...there was never likely to be agreement here. But whatever, it's all disagreement about how best to serve Hashem, so I say elu v'elu, and let's agree to disagree with respect for one another as yirei shamayim.

Nothing but respect for you my friend. This is just fun brain picking and exercises on how to all become better Jews.

 

[dantech]

That boiler treatment can not come into contact with a domestic water supply; it is designed to be added to steam boilers within a closed loop where the heat, and not the steam itself, is the desired end product.

If the boiler treatment is in your household water supply, you have a serious problem.

I don't know exactly how it works. But if what you are saying is true, then this hechsher just falls into the category of a company who wants to sell a product and calls the local rabbinat to add a hechsher on its product. The Kosher Company, being a business, sees there is nothing wrong with the product halakha wise, and agrees to put their seal on the product for a sum of money. It is after all a business. How does this affect anyone?

 

[Harmonious]

The olive oil in the Temple had nothing to do with kashrut, because it wasn't eaten, it was burned in the menorah. The Kohen Gadol put a seal of purity on it probably because the oil was mukdash, and so shouldn't be used by Yisraelim or for non-sacramental purposes, and to ensure it was tahor and not touched by anyone or anything tamei. Who would demand hashgachah on something not actually consumed? It makes no sense. It would have to have been for a different reason, and so using the stamp of the Kohen Gadol as a precedent for strict hashgachah doesn't hold water, IMO.

Levite, the oil in for the Menorah had nothing to do with household consumption, and everything to do with its fitness and appropriateness for use in the Temple.

You know that kosher means fit. I'm not sure why you are arguing so hard against Othodox Hashgacha.

On things like water, I agree with you. But not every Orthodox Jew is Hareidi, and I don't understand your vehemence against Orthodox ruling, here.

 

[Harmonious]

Okay... so it sounds like you've allayed my main fear: that for the kosher coffee, they make sure no cockroaches/mice/etc. Got into the roaster/grinder/etc., and for the non-kosher stuff, they aren't as careful.

Thanks, all

You are very welcome.

 

[Tarheeler]

I don't know exactly how it works. But if what you are saying is true, then this hechsher just falls into the category of a company who wants to sell a product and calls the local rabbinat to add a hechsher on its product. The Kosher Company, being a business, sees there is nothing wrong with the product halakha wise, and agrees to put their seal on the product for a sum of money. It is after all a business. How does this affect anyone?

I wasn't complaining about it. I actually found it funny, which is why I posted it in the private Jewish forum. As for my post responding to Harmonious, I was simply providing clarification of what the chemical does; as an HVAC technician, it's what I do.

I value your opinion, but please follow the conversation before jumping in.