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Koran & Hadith in plain english?
- Thread starter Sedim Haba
- Start date
MyM
Well-Known Member
This verse you are misguided in your thinking.
This verse does not justify the Jews living in Israel.
However, the Jews have messed up so many times and they know this to be true. They had the covenant, and we don't deny it. But they screwed up and had been penalized for their mess-ups. On the Day of Judgement they all will be gathered.
See, the contents are not what you are portraying.
I think you should read what exactly Allah is saying what happened and how the Jews kept on disobeying Allah, their prophets and killing them.
No, it's not really my opinion. I'm simply following a logical path based on the claims that Muslims make.
As a Muslim, do you claim that the Quran is the perfect, timeless, unalterable word of god? I expect you to say that you do, because as I understand it, that's one of the foundations of the faith.
MyM
Well-Known Member
What is your point that you are trying to make?
You cannot be a Muslim without believing that Allah and his last message to mankind, the Quran.
"Koran & Hadith in plain english?".....The Koran and Hadith are not in English....and that's the point. They were written long ago in a different language, and any attempt to translate them correctly will fail (somewhat).
This is why the associate pastor of my local Greek Orthodox church was having so much difficulty understanding the bible. He thought that there was just one heaven, not several levels of heaven as written in the Old Testament. He thought that God had split himself into three parts (trinity). When we go back to the old translations, we understand the truth.
Modern pastors will tell you lies about "all versions of the bible are perfect and agree with one another." That's simply not true. For example, in the old testament, Genesis 1:25 says that man was created before animals, and Genesis 2:18 says that man was created after animals.
Since the Muslim faith (and Christian faith) are spin-offs of the Jewish faith (essentially meaning that all Muslims and Christians are religiously (not ethnically) Jews), they must all rely on the old testament being true and correct.
Since when do we rely on lies to be sure of our religions? I thought that lies are the domain of Satan? Doesn't Satan rule by lies and deception?
We must tell the truth about the invalidity of modern translations of God's words. We must only believe the oldest versions, and, even then, we must question whether the words are true.
We must recognize lies in order to defeat them. We can't be misled by lies.
Hello
In Islam, you have the Arabic words of Allah and in saying that, whenever you read a translated copy, always have the arabic there next to it. This way you are always obliged to go back to the Arabic if you do not understand it and can ask about it.
Yes, there are many translations of the Quran but only one Arabic version.
Exactly....We may have "Muslim bible for dummies" to help us understand...but we have to go back to the Quran (the hard to understand book) and struggle to understand it. It is the word of God.
We must not rely on rewritten versions (invariably wrong) to understand the words of God.
I don't exactly know what you mean about Abu Bukr
"Bri-ish" they know it is the same word, same meaning, but they just have a different accented way of saying the word.
Mohammad pbuh was taught all the ways.
A meaning, by any label (or word), is still a meaning.
This reminds me of cussing. Some might say "my word" instead of a cuss word. It still has the same meaning.
Archie Bunker would point to God, but put his hand over his finger so God wouldn't see. Yet, we know that God sees all. No attempt to disguise meanings successfully disguises them.
Okay, that's a good start, thanks.
The Quran claims to be clear and easy to understand. Therefore, the Islamic scholars who spend years working on translations should be able to create accurate translations. If they cannot, then we cannot honestly claim that the book is perfect.
My point is that when a Muslim says something like "oh, you can't really understand the Quran unless you read it in Arabic", that's not a logical or defensible claim. That claim is in conflict with what the Quran itself says.
I agree.The Bible doesn't claim to be from God. It is from the hands of men and in it, they have taken out, deleted, changed and played around with the interpretations. It's not about just translations...versions upon versions of bibles out there that not two are identical. Most of these scripts are not during the times of Jesus.
When King Henry VIII of England wanted to divorce Catherine of Aragon (1st of 6 wives), and the Catholic church prohibited it, he formed his own (Anglican, protestant) church, and demanded to be its leader (holy man that he was....lol).
Kings and popes have altered the various bibles. Every spin-off has its own favorite version, and no two versions are exactly alike. The devil (pardon the pun) is in the details.
I suppose that we could use statistics and say to ourselves that we have a 90% chance of being right? But that doesn't give us a very good understanding of God.
Where? 54:17 for example has most translation referring to remembering. And there are many who have memorized it.
Do you deny there are problems in translating between languages? I hope not because there are.
To save you time, i've included a google search string, feel free to copy / paste / and see what comes up
google: when does the quran say it's easy to understand?
Even material that billions of people agree is timeless, perfect, clear and easy to understand?
If you think in terms of set theory or Venn diagrams or boolean logic or... then I think the claim above, in brackets, really sets a high bar for itself in terms of clarity. For example, by fulfilling the promised quality of timelessness, all arguments about requiring the proper cultural understanding are out of play. Again, all I'm doing here is thinking carefully about Islam's central set of claims to see if they hold up to logical scrutiny.
The first few assert it's easy to understand. Besides which,asserting that web sites on the internet are accurate leads me to want to put up a "make money fast" and direct you to it.
The Muslims you are debating here are head and shoulders way above typical Muslims. If you want to really debate, you need to go way way beyond random internet sites that come up first on a search.
Compared to many other scriptures, I have found it easy to understand. But beyond that, what does "easy" mean? I've found that any document can be interpreted multiple ways even ways which are opposite to what the document says.
Millions of people think Trump won in 2020. What does numbers have to do with truth? Are you going to assert vaccines work based on popularity contests?
Attachments
Are you hinting that there is no useful data or information or knowledge or - gasp - even wisdom to be had on the internet?
As I've said, I'm analyzing the core claims of Islam from a logical perspective. I'm happy for any Muslim to show me the flaws in my logic.
I think you're making my case for me here
I believe that using only the two foundational claims in Islam, we can demonstrate logically that they, and the claims built upon them, are not logically consistent, therefore false.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Verse 2:242 is more specific than 54:17. It says, "God makes clear His signs for you ...". And "His signs" is code for the Qur'an.
Also, you're too hung up on the word "remember". That refers to the message, as opposed to the ability to recall the message. Several translators of 54:17 have tried to clarify that point by translating it as, "understand and remember". The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
To save you time, i've included a google search string, feel free to copy / paste / and see what comes up
google: when does the quran say it's easy to understand?
Even material that billions of people agree is timeless, perfect, clear and easy to understand?
If you think in terms of set theory or Venn diagrams or boolean logic or... then I think the claim above, in brackets, really sets a high bar for itself in terms of clarity. For example, by fulfilling the promised quality of timelessness, all arguments about requiring the proper cultural understanding are out of play. Again, all I'm doing here is thinking carefully about Islam's central set of claims to see if they hold up to logical scrutiny.
I think just the fact that tafseers and hadiths have to be consulted for some to understand the meaning of the Qur'an is proof that it is indeed not perfect.
Sedim Haba
Outa here... bye-bye!
Hello
In Islam, you have the Arabic words of Allah and in saying that, whenever you read a translated copy, always have the arabic there next to it. This way you are always obliged to go back to the Arabic if you do not understand it and can ask about it.
Yes, there are many translations of the Quran but only one Arabic version.
Yes, yes, you know I could replace every instance of 'Arabic' with 'Hebrew'
and it would describe exactly how I read Torah, English on one side, Hebrew the other.
The Hebrew side would do no good for someone who can't read it.
The English side, while never perfect, would still be better than nothing.
And certainly better than something being translated from Latin from Hebrew.
After five pages of indecipherable arguments, I'm disappointed no one could
give me an answer. I guess there's no real desire for non-Arabic speakers to
read the Koran? Is that accurate? That there's nothing you think is important
enough to supersede a lack of a language skill and be spread in the world?
Good grief. Where did you get that my response to "google it" was to show that was just a collection of web sites. I've cited high quality web sites any number of times but a simple search is insufficient.
I don't accept the Islamic theology that the Quran is timeless etc. Anything that is born dies sooner or later for one thing. And there's zero logical proof that Gabriel gave the Quran to Muhammad.
But insisting that translations can be made perfect is an incorrect and thus weak argument.
There are any number of words that can't be easily translated in a way that does not turn that word into a paragraph destroying the poetic beauty of the original. For example
4. Ya’aburnee (Arabic)
“A declaration of one’s hope that they’ll die before another person because of how unbearable it would be to live without them.”
Also the Quran itself says that not all verses are to be taken literally. There's no way, for example, that the "Light" Sura is literal.
Augustus
…
More pertinent is the fact that many early mufassir clearly have no real clue about what certain verses actually mean.
Tabari sometimes gives 5+ mutually incompatible interpretations of the same verse.
Hadith and sunnah often seem to have been much later creations to explain the Quran (night journey, splitting moon, Abu Lahab, etc.)
Sedim Haba
Outa here... bye-bye!
Nowadays, that word can be a hypertext link to that definition, right? Just how often would that be needed?