Killing for apostacy is against Quran.

[Link]

And when the Bible says wives should submit to their husbands, do you think it means they should try to practice their husband's virtues?

In case of pardon, God says "pardon, do you not love that God should pardon you?", so he is correct in his intuition.

 

[Link]

This is why Quran does not directly say everything about Salah explicitly but actually proves each component and words implicitly. It's because it's a book of insights and proofs.

 

[stvdv]

Also an interesting question would be: IF your Scripture would tell you "To kill for apostacy is okay/needed", would you "agree?"

I would not and left Islam for 5 years because of bad translations according to Quran that I thought Quran was flawed as a result including the fact I believe it commanded to slavery, made woman into half a witness, etc.

Same for me, respect others (non) faith is essential

You can't let scripture triumph over your nature and reason

I always call it: Common Sense before Divine Sense

For example in 3:7

1 of my 4 favorite Koran verses

 

[Link]

1 of my 4 favorite Koran verses

If people had any effort to stick to what is clear proofs and insights in Quran and Sunnah, and not follow ambiguities of what their scholars emphasize on and teach, everything, justice, the whole world at peace, all that would've been achieved from my point of view.

3:7 is super important.

 

[Link]

Out of curiosity what is the rest of your four favorites?

 

[epronovost]

Salam

In the 4th Chapter of Quran, we read:

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. 88They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. 89Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them. 90You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

To me, this reads a bit like if someone turns away from Allah, don't try to bring them back because Allah made them turn so it's useless for you to try. Apostate only want to convince you that Allah's message is false and that you should disbelieve like them. Don't make friends with them. Let them flee or leave if they want to, but if they try to return then kill them all with no quarter given. Take no poisoners or slaves, but be smart about it a little bit. If they sought help from an ally of yours, leave them be and live amongst those allies in peace. If they come back in repentance, then leave them be to. If they want to be your allies against other enemies of yours, then make peace with them and use them as such. If they find a home in amongst your enemies and try to cause you harm then feel free to kill them all.

It does indeed doesn't sanction the killing of apostates nor give free reign to kill them all, but it does seem to sanction their exile and makes it very apparent that those apostate aren't to be liked in general. It also seem to show that apostasy can be forgiven if sincere and that you must give them a chance if demand from pardon comes from them.

 

[stvdv]

Out of curiosity what is the rest of your four favorites?

These were useful for me, in a few replies I made on RF about Koran
Sura 3, The Amramites (Ãli-‘Imrãn) Quran The Final Testament, translated by Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D. (3:07 Straightforward and multiple-meaning or allegorical verses; beware for confusion)
Sura 4, Women (Al-Nesã’) Quran The Final Testament, translated by Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D. (4:88 God sent some people astray, away from God; you can never undo what God did)
Sura 5, The Feast (Al-Mã’edah) Quran The Final Testament, translated by Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D. (5:48 God willed the different faiths, stick to your own, act righteous; all will return to God)
Sura 5, The Feast (Al-Mã’edah) Quran The Final Testament, translated by Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D. (5:51 beware who you choose as your alley)
@stvdvRF

 

[stvdv]

If people had any effort to stick to what is clear proofs and insights in Quran and Sunnah, and not follow ambiguities of what their scholars emphasize on and teach, everything, justice, the whole world at peace, all that would've been achieved from my point of view.

3:7 is super important.

Yes I fully agree

Koran verse 3:7 is very important to me (My Master pointed that one out to me)

I rather ask God to explain the verses to me, than ask a scholar (nowadays in Kali Yuga there are not so many satwic scholars, better be careful)

 

[Link]

To me, this reads a bit like if someone turns away from Allah, don't try to bring them back because Allah made them turn so it's useless for you to try. Apostate only want to convince you that Allah's message is false and that you should disbelieve like them. Don't make friends with them. Let them flee or leave if they want to, but if they try to return then kill them all with no quarter given. Take no poisoners or slaves, but be smart about it a little bit. If they sought help from an ally of yours, leave them be and live amongst those allies in peace. If they come back in repentance, then leave them be to. If they want to be your allies against other enemies of yours, then make peace with them and use them as such. If they find a home in amongst your enemies and try to cause you harm then feel free to kill them all.

It does indeed doesn't sanction the killing of apostates nor give free reign to kill them all, but it does seem to sanction their exile and makes it very apparent that those apostate aren't to be liked in general. It also seem to show that apostasy can be forgiven if sincere and that you must give them a chance if demand from pardon comes from them.

I would not say is sanctions exile in normal circumstances. But they can't take their chances hanging around at close quarters while their at war for them to attack them while they might be faking their commitment to peace. So if they withdraw from them, withhold their hands from fighting, and offer peace... this seems noble especially since for all they know, they might be faking their offer of peace.

 

[Link]

Yes I fully agree

Koran verse 3:7 is very important to me (My Master pointed that one out to me)

I rather ask God to explain the verses to me, than ask a scholar (nowadays in Kali Yuga there are not so many satwic scholars, better be careful)

I think there is nothing wrong with asking multiple scholars as long we seek to understand and not blindly follow. Imams (a) said beware of leadership and marching behind men. The companion being told this by Imam Baqir (a) replied, "I understand leadership (belonging to you) but everything I've learned is through marching behind men", the Imam (a) replied, "it's not what you think (that I meant), beware of listening to a person not appointed by God and then accepting everything they say"

 

[Shakeel]

The verses show:

(1) They can if they go a people who do not fight them
(2) Even if they go a people fighting them, if they promise to withhold their hands and not fight the Muslims, and offer peace, they are to be allowed to go and return.

The turning back is a public act of apostasy, but Quran doesn't say to kill them all, it says only to kill those who do not offer peace and won't withhold their hands from fighting, and only these did God give clear authority to the believers to kill them.

This is essentially about hypocrites, not all apostates and certainly not a universal rule on how to deal with apostates. Many people were killed at the conquest of Macca and one was nearly killed even when he came to offer peace.

 

[Link]

This is essentially about hypocrites, not all apostates and certainly not a universal rule on how to deal with apostates.

This about hypocrites if they apostate and hence, possibly would go fight the Muslims. As they already turned away inwardly (they hypocrites), this about them leaving the religion. It's only because of this possibility of faking peace and fighting Muslims, they weren't allowed to hang around (because they polytheists were at war with Muslims). It said, however, if they are returning to a people with an alliance, then let them go. As for those returning to people who fight you, only in the case, they don't offer peace and withholding their hands and withdrawing from you, can you kill them. It didn't allow it if they offered peace, withdraw, and don't fight. It's clear.

 

[danieldemol]

They prefer ahadith over Quran when their scholars emphasize on those hadiths.

This is not entirely correct, some of them just have different interpretations of the Quran than you do, as is evidenced by the replies of @Shakeel

 

[Shakeel]

This about hypocrites if they apostate and hence, possibly would go fight the Muslims. As they already turned away inwardly (they hypocrites), this about them leaving the religion. It's only because of this possibility of faking peace and fighting Muslims, they weren't allowed to hang around (because they polytheists were at war with Muslims). It said, however, if they are returning to a people with an alliance, then let them go. As for those returning to people who fight you, only in the case, they don't offer peace and withholding their hands and withdrawing from you, can you kill them. It didn't allow it if they offered peace, withdraw, and don't fight. It's clear.

Really it doesn't even matter, because this is not why apostate are killed. It's in both the hadiths of sunni Muslims and the Shia Muslims.

I'm surprised you admit to so many things the shias would probably consider you an apostate for.

Are you ever going to tell us who you follow? You might say no one, but you quote an awful lot of hadiths so...that would be a lie.

 

[Link]

Really it doesn't even matter, because this is not why apostate are killed. It's in both the hadiths of sunni Muslims and the Shia Muslims.

I'm surprised you admit to so many things the shias would probably consider you an apostate for.

Are you ever going to tell us who you follow? You might say no one, but you quote an awful lot of hadiths so...that would be a lie.

Following hadiths instead of Quran is non-sensical.

 

[firedragon]

I don't see an allowance for apostates / heathens who defend
themselves against attack by Muslims. Would this allow
Muslims to conquer others, & kill them for resisting?

You are told not to be the aggressor, and you only fight against the aggressor.

 

[firedragon]

Is there any punishment for apostasy, insulting Islam, or Insulting Muhammed?

None.

 

[firedragon]

To me, this reads a bit like if someone turns away from Allah, don't try to bring them back because Allah made them turn so it's useless for you to try. Apostate only want to convince you that Allah's message is false and that you should disbelieve like them. Don't make friends with them. Let them flee or leave if they want to, but if they try to return then kill them all with no quarter given. Take no poisoners or slaves, but be smart about it a little bit. If they sought help from an ally of yours, leave them be and live amongst those allies in peace. If they come back in repentance, then leave them be to. If they want to be your allies against other enemies of yours, then make peace with them and use them as such. If they find a home in amongst your enemies and try to cause you harm then feel free to kill them all.

It does indeed doesn't sanction the killing of apostates nor give free reign to kill them all, but it does seem to sanction their exile and makes it very apparent that those apostate aren't to be liked in general. It also seem to show that apostasy can be forgiven if sincere and that you must give them a chance if demand from pardon comes from them.

Which exact verse are you referring to about "apostates"?

 

[firedragon]

This is not entirely correct, some of them just have different interpretations of the Quran than you do, as is evidenced by the replies of @Shakeel

Appealing to authority? Or is it appealing to minority? Or is it appealing to majority?

Anyway all three are logical fallacies.

 

[danieldemol]

Appealing to authority? Or is it appealing to minority? Or is it appealing to majority?

Anyway all three are logical fallacies.

I was appealing to the evidence. If someone else does not interpret the Quran the way you do that is evidence that they understand it differently to you.

So no logical fallacy has been committed.

In my opinion.