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JW's Preach A Different Gospel

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Oeste:

1Ti 6:15-16 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone [monos-g3441] has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.​

Before I spend any more time discussing this , Can you tell me who is the only [monos-G3441] individual, at the time Paul wrote these words, who could not die? (Alone has immortality)
 
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Oeste

Well-Known Member
Oeste:

1Ti 6:15-16 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone [monos-g3441] has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.​

Before I spend any more time discussing this , Can you tell me who is the only [monos-G3441] individual, at the time Paul wrote these words, who could not die? (Alone has immortality)

Hi James2ko,

The "He" here is God as stated in some translations.

Neither man nor angels are immortal by nature. Man must receive immorality from God whereas God is innately immortal. Likewise no man sees or approaches God unless called. It's simply not something we have the capacity to do on our own.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Hi James2ko,
The "He" here is God as stated in some translations. Neither man nor angels are immortal by nature. Man must receive immorality from God whereas God is innately immortal. Likewise no man sees or approaches God unless called. It's simply not something we have the capacity to do on our own.

Reading the passages in their context indicates Paul identifying and making a distinction between the two beings--Father and Son:

13 I charge you before God [The Father] who gives life to all things and Christ Jesus [The Son] who made his good confession before Pontius Pilate,14 to obey this command without fault or failure until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ 15 – whose appearing the blessed and only [monos-G3441] Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, will reveal at the right time.16 He [not they] alone [monos-G3441] possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him [not them] be honor and eternal power! Amen. (1Ti 6:13-16 NET)
The grammar of vs 13-16 clearly conveys the fact Paul is referring to "only" [monos-G3441] one, not multiple individuals. There is only one Blessed Potentate (Ruler) and only one who has inherent immortality and only one King of Kingships (g936) and Lord of Lordships (g2961), whom no man has or can see. So which one of the two is Paul referring to?
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Reading the passages in their context indicates Paul identifying and making a distinction between the two beings--Father and Son:

Not actually. I see any distinction between God, who we cannot see, and Christ, who we can.

13 I charge you before God [The Father]..." who gives life to all things..."​
I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t see this as referring exclusively to the personage of the Father. This passage simply says “I charge you before God who gives life to all things...”

Previously you stated Christ created all things after the Father created him, so I think it would be inconsistent to now imply the Father “gives life to all things” where previously you stated it was Christ doing the creating. In order to be consistent with your prior exegesis, I would interpret it as "I charge you before God [Jesus Christ] who gives life to all things..."


....and Christ Jesus [The Son] who made his good confession before Pontius Pilate,14 to obey this command without fault or failure until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ 15 – whose appearing the blessed and only [monos-G3441] Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, will reveal at the right time.16 He [not they] alone [monos-G3441] possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him [not them] be honor and eternal power! Amen. (1Ti 6:13-16 NET)
The grammar of vs 13-16 clearly conveys the fact Paul is referring to "only" [monos-G3441] one, not multiple individuals. There is only one Blessed Potentate (Ruler) and only one who has inherent immortality and only one King of Kingships (g936) and Lord of Lordships (g2961), whom no man has or can see. So which one of the two is Paul referring to?

The “only” here is not referring to one individual but to one God. There is only one God (not multiple Gods, gods, big/junior God, nor God and “a god”). If Paul wanted to convey there were multiple God and/or god combinations, you are correct…he would have used plural rather than singular terms.

There is only ONE Lord of Lords (singular) and no Lords of Lords (plural) in scripture. Compare Deuteronomy 10:17 and Revelation 17:14. Yahweh states He is “Lord of Lords” whilst Jesus states he is “Lord of Lords”, yet nowhere in scripture do we find the plural term “Lords of Lords”, which is what one would expect to find with two separate Gods.

IMO, 1 Timothy 6:13-16 are great Trinitarian verses. There is also some great parallelisms and contrasts to be made here, as these verses distinguish and depict Christ (God) who in his pre-incarnate state is unapproachable (1 Chronicle 15:2; 2 Samuel 6:7), and Christ incarnate who is quite approachable (John 1 3:-4; 1 Samuel 2:6; John 14:6).
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Not actually. I see any distinction between God, who we cannot see, and Christ, who we can.

1. This is a pastoral epistle. The difference between the two is precisely what Paul is attempting to teach young Pastor Timothy.

I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t see this as referring exclusively to the personage of the Father. This passage simply says “I charge you before God who gives life to all things...” Previously you stated Christ created all things after the Father created him, so I think it would be inconsistent to now imply the Father “gives life to all things” In order to be consistent with your prior exegesis, I would interpret it as "I charge you before God [Jesus Christ] who gives life to all things..."

2. It's actually more consistent to say the Father gave life to all things, which would imply He also gave life to Christ. The Father, together with Christ, gave life to everything else.

where previously you stated it was Christ doing the creating.

3. This is what I actually said :

james2ko said:
10. ".....The Father and Son planned an implemented the creation of the angels, then the universe,
11. The Father through the Son (Gen 1:1-elohim [plural];Joh 1:3) were doing the creating.

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/jws-preach-a-different-gospel.178291/page-57#post-4549462

The “only” here is not referring to one individual but to one God. There is only one God (not multiple Gods, gods, big/junior God, nor God and “a god”). If Paul wanted to convey there were multiple God and/or god combinations, you are correct…he would have used plural rather than singular terms.

4. So we agree that 1 Tim 6:15-16 describes only one of the two Gods. We are in good company as Daniel Wallace agrees that only one "person" [individual] is in view in this construction

There is only ONE Lord of Lords (singular) and no Lords of Lords (plural) in scripture. Compare Deuteronomy 10:17 and Revelation 17:14. Yahweh states He is “Lord of Lords” whilst Jesus states he is “Lord of Lords”, yet nowhere in scripture do we find the plural term “Lords of Lords”, which is what one would expect to find with two separate Gods.

5. Deu 10 and Rev 17 identify the same YHVH--Christ. However, there is a stark difference many overlook between the phrases King of kings and Lord of lords:

[God the Father]1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the [The] King G935of kings,[kingships-G936] and [The] Lord G2962 of lords [lordships-G2961]

[Christ]
Rev 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords [g2962] and King of kings [G935]; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."

[Christ]
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written,KING G935 OF KINGS,[G935] AND LORD G2962 OF LORDS.[G2962]

Notice the different pairs of Greek terms for kings and lords. In Rev 17 and 19, Christ's title denotes a ruler over rulers, but the Father’s title expresses more of one who places [verb] rulers over other rulers. This is consistent with Jesus' response to James' and John's mother asking Jesus to assign positions of authority to her sons to whom Jesus replied only the Father is able to do so:

Matthew 20:23 Jesus said to them, "You will drink my cup. But I don't have the authority to grant you a seat at my right or left. My Father has already prepared these positions for certain people." (GWN).​

The Father is the One who gave Jesus His kingship:

Act 10:42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He [Christ] who was ordained by God[The Father] to be Judge of the living and the dead.

Psa 2:6 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."

Note that In Rev 17 and 19 identifying Christ, the plural Greek terms for "Kings" and "Lords" are nouns. In The Father's reference in 1 Tim 6:15, they are verbs. Also worth noting is the definite article "the" is present in the Greek manuscripts to identify the Father, but absent in Rev 17 and 19 in identifying Christ. This is also the only time in the NT the Greek term for kingships [basileuonton] and lordships [kurieuonton] appears with this case ending, further suggesting distinction and exclusivity.

God the Father is the one who decides who will rule and who will be king. That is why He is referred to as the King of the kingships (not kings) and the Lord of the lordships (not lords).

IMO, 1 Timothy 6:13-16 are great Trinitarian verses. There is also some great parallelisms and contrasts to be made here, as these verses distinguish and depict Christ (God) who in his pre-incarnate state is unapproachable (1 Chronicle 15:2; 2 Samuel 6:7), and Christ incarnate who is quite approachable (John 1 3:-4; 1 Samuel 2:6; John 14:6).

6. I don't see how 1 ch 15:2 and 2 Sa 6:7 depict God as unapproachable. David merely overlooked the law that stated the ark was to only be touched and carried by the sons of Kohath or they will die (Exo 25:12-14; Num 4:15;7:9). In 2 sa 6:7, the ark was touched by someone other than a son of Kohath and the penalty was carried out. Your interpretation of 1 Ch 15:2 and 2 Sa 6:7 actually contradicts your statement in bold above, as Christ was approachable to the sons of Kohath.

But that's not your only problem. If you insist on 1 Ti 6:15-16 referring to the "person" or God named Christ, that creates a major inconsistency in the text as Christ was not the "only" [monos-G3441] immortal when Paul penned these words. God the Father was also immortal. Furthermore, The "God" in 1 Tim 6:15-16 has not and cannot be seen. Christ was seen by Paul and John in His glorified state (1 Co 9:1; Rev 1:11-20) and obviously by John in his incarnate state.

This leaves only one other possible "God" to fit all of the criteria--The Father--who alone [monos-G3441] cannot die (indicating everyone else "can" die including the created Christ), dwelling in unapproachable light whom no man has seen or can see (Joh 1:18; 6:46; 1 Jo 4:12). And is the "only" [monos-G3441] Ruler (Potentate) who assigns positions of leadership---King of Kingships and Lord of Lordships.
 
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Oeste

Well-Known Member
Not actually. I see any distinction between God, who we cannot see, and Christ, who we can.

1. This is a pastoral epistle. The difference between the two is precisely what Paul is attempting to teach young Pastor Timothy.


I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t see this as referring exclusively to the personage of the Father. This passage simply says “I charge you before God who gives life to all things...” Previously you stated Christ created all things after the Father created him, so I think it would be inconsistent to now imply the Father “gives life to all things” In order to be consistent with your prior exegesis, I would interpret it as "I charge you before God [Jesus Christ] who gives life to all things..."

2. It's actually more consistent to say the Father gave life to all things, which would imply He also gave life to Christ. The Father, together with Christ, gave life to everything else.

where previously you stated it was Christ doing the creating.

13. This is what I actually said :

10. ".....The Father and Son planned an implemented the creation of the angels, then the universe,


11. The Father through the Son (Gen 1:1-elohim [plural];Joh 1:3) were doing the creating.


Aaah. So I see Arians disagree on who does the actual creation. You say the Father and Jesus created creation after the Father created Jesus, whereas other Arians say it was Jesus who did the creating after the Father created him. Is this correct?

How do you reconcile your version....Father creating Jesus then both creating creation....with Colossians 1:16? Wouldn't you have to rework it to say "For by [them] all things were created...."?


The “only” here is not referring to one individual but to one God. There is only one God (not multiple Gods, gods, big/junior God, nor God and “a god”). If Paul wanted to convey there were multiple God and/or god combinations, you are correct…he would have used plural rather than singular terms.

4. So we agree that 1 Tim 6:15-16 describes only one of the two Gods. We are in good company as Daniel Wallace agrees that only one "person" [individual] is in view in this construction


Lol, you really would be fun to grab a drink with James2ko! We can agree the Father is God, we can agree Jesus is God, but the Arian concept of two separate and distinct Gods as a Christian belief eludes me.

There is only ONE Lord of Lords (singular) and no Lords of Lords (plural) in scripture. Compare Deuteronomy 10:17 and Revelation 17:14. Yahweh states He is “Lord of Lords” whilst Jesus states he is “Lord of Lords”, yet nowhere in scripture do we find the plural term “Lords of Lords”, which is what one would expect to find with two separate Gods.

5. Deu 10 and Rev 17 identify the same YHVH--Christ. However, there is a stark difference many overlook between the phrases King of kings and Lord of lords:


[God the Father]1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the [The] King G935of kings,[kingships-G936] and [The] Lord G2962 of lords [lordships-G2961]

[Christ]
Rev 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords [g2962] and King of kings [G935]; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."

[Christ]
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written,KING G935 OF KINGS,[G935] AND LORD G2962 OF LORDS.[G2962]

Notice the different pairs of Greek terms for kings and lords. In Rev 17 and 19, Christ's title denotes a ruler over rulers, but the Father’s title expresses more of one who places [verb] rulers over other rulers. This is consistent with Jesus' response to James' and John's mother asking Jesus to assign positions of authority to her sons to whom Jesus replied only the Father is able to do so:


Matthew 20:23 Jesus said to them, "You will drink my cup. But I don't have the authority to grant you a seat at my right or left. My Father has already prepared these positions for certain people." (GWN).
The Father is the One who gave Jesus His kingship:


Act 10:42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He [Christ] who was ordained by God[The Father] to be Judge of the living and the dead.

Psa 2:6 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."
Note that In Rev 17 and 19 identifying Christ, the plural Greek terms for "Kings" and "Lords" are nouns. In The Father's reference in 1 Tim 6:15, they are verbs. Also worth noting is the definite article "the" is present in the Greek manuscripts to identify the Father, but absent in Rev 17 and 19 in identifying Christ. This is also the only time in the NT the Greek term for kingships [basileuonton] and lordships [kurieuonton] appears with this case ending, further suggesting distinction and exclusivity.

God the Father is the one who decides who will rule and who will be king. That is why He is referred to as the King of the kingships (not kings) and the Lord of the lordships (not lords).


I understand the difference here, but you did say there are two Gods, so the inference is that there are two Lords, and not just one.

So are you saying Jesus is Lord, and the Father is not, or are you saying we have two Lords, and if we have two Lords, why doesn't it say Lords of Lords?
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
IMO, 1 Timothy 6:13-16 are great Trinitarian verses. There is also some great parallelisms and contrasts to be made here, as these verses distinguish and depict Christ (God) who in his pre-incarnate state is unapproachable (1 Chronicle 15:2; 2 Samuel 6:7), and Christ incarnate who is quite approachable (John 1 3:-4; 1 Samuel 2:6; John 14:6).

6. I don't see how 1 ch 15:2 and 2 Sa 6:7 depict God as unapproachable. David merely overlooked the law that stated the ark was to only be touched and carried by the sons of Kohath or they will die (Exo 25:12-14; Num 4:15;7:9). In 2 sa 6:7, the ark was touched by someone other than a son of Kohath and the penalty was carried out.

So if you, I or anyone else we know back then just happens to touch the arc we die. That sounds pretty unapproachable to me.

Your interpretation of 1 Ch 15:2 and 2 Sa 6:7 actually contradicts your statement in bold above, as Christ was approachable to the sons of Kohath.

I probably should have been clearer in stating how I was the parallelism and contrast at 1Timothy 6:13-16. Compare all the machinations and convolutions to approach the inner temple or arc to how approachable Jesus was. Also compare what happened to those who touched the arc without permission to those who grabbed the hem of Jesus' garment. It meant death to one, and good health to the other. I see all this destroyed with your interpretation of 1 Timothy 6:13-16.


But that's not your only problem. If you insist on 1 Ti 6:15-16 referring to the "person" or God named Christ, that creates a major inconsistency in the text as Christ was not the "only" [monos-G3441] immortal when Paul penned these words. God the Father was also immortal. Furthermore, The "God" in 1 Tim 6:15-16 has not and cannot be seen. Christ was seen by Paul and John in His glorified state (1 Co 9:1; Rev 1:11-20) and obviously by John in his incarnate state.

Of course God the Father is immortal. So aren’t the Holy Spirit and the pre-incarnate Christ. God (Jesus) condescended and became mortal...essentially the immortal becoming mortal.

We see the sun, but only through a distance and the filter of our atmosphere. If we were to witness the entire "glory" of the sun....its brilliance, heat, and fire....we would be ash, so how much more can we not behold the glory of the living God who created and gave light to billions upon billions of such things?



“This leaves only one other possible "God" to fit all of the criteria--The Father--who alone [monos-G3441] cannot die …”

Actually, it leaves God alone as the one who is immortal and cannot die.


“….(indicating everyone else "can" die including the created Christ),…”


I agree the incarnate Christ died for our sins so that we may have life, but there is no “created Christ”.


“…dwelling in unapproachable light whom no man has seen or can see (Joh 1:18; 6:46; 1 Jo 4:12). And is the "only" [monos-G3441] Ruler (Potentate) who assigns positions of leadership---King of Kingships and Lord of Lordships.”

This assertion leads to conflict:

You state God assigns position of leadership. I don't have a problem with this. You state Jesus is Lord of Lords, and I have no problem with this either.

But then you state God is the supreme God and Jesus is a separate junior God which immediately leads the believer into conflict.

1. Both Jesus and God are referred to as "Lord" or "King" in scripture.

2. If Jesus is Lord and God the Father merely assigns position, then Jesus is Lord and the Father is not. This leads the believer immediately into conflict. If the uncreated God is not Lord, why on earth (or heaven) is He proclaiming Himself Lord at Exodus 20:2?

3. If the Father is Lord then Jesus is not, as there is only one Lord of Lords. Unfortunately this labels Jesus the impostor and the believer into additional scriptural conflict.

4. If both are Lords, then why are there no Lords of Lords (plural) and only a Lord of Lords (singular)? Your explanation indicates there is only one, and I agree with it. It shows the difference, which I also agree with. But I think we can both agree there are no Lord(s) of Lords, so we can safely take two "Lords" off the table.

5. Perhaps Jesus and the Father are taking turns as Lord, with one wearing his “Lord” hat one moment, and the other wearing it the next? But that would be unwieldy and reminiscent of Modalism, and neither of us subscribe to that.:confused:

6. This takes us back to Number 2 or 3... Either Jesus or the Father is Lord of Lords and our comments appear to agree that Jesus is "Lord" in "Lord of Lords". But who assigns him thus?

Under Arian theology, we have none other than the senior God (Father) assigning His created junior God (Jesus) as His Lord, so now God junior is "Lord" of God senior (since both are "Lords")!

7. The only way I see resolving this from an Arian perspective is to insert the word "other" into the text, so that Jesus is "Lord of all [other] Lords" and "King of all [other] Kings", much like the Watchtower does with their bible in various places. I understand you’re not a Watchtower Arian, but based on their theology it’s the only avenue I can see for scriptural harmonization. But unlike the Witnesses I’ve run across, you seem more interested in accuracy than fumbling to show how quickly you can agree with the changing beliefs of an organization. I applaud you for this, but I disagree with your analysis.

8. Lastly, it seems to me that from a Trinitarian perspective (Jesus is Yahweh) such scriptural “conflicts” are more easily resolved, but from an Arian perspective things tend to get convoluted and messy quite quickly.​
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Aaah. So I see Arians disagree on who does the actual creation. You say the Father and Jesus created creation after the Father created Jesus, whereas other Arians say it was Jesus who did the creating after the Father created him. Is this correct?

How do you reconcile your version....Father creating Jesus then both creating creation....with Colossians 1:16? Wouldn't you have to rework it to say "For by [them] all things were created...."?

1. Joh 1:3 gives us the identity of an additional EL of the Elohim involved in the creation of the universe in Gen 1:1-- The Father. Whom through another EL-Christ--, created everything else. I believe they were both involved. One more direct than the other.

Lol, you really would be fun to grab a drink with James2ko! We can agree the Father is God, we can agree Jesus is God, but the Arian concept of two separate and distinct Gods as a Christian belief eludes me.

2. If we ever do, a virgin Strawberry Daquiri will do :). Yes they both take on the name God/YHVH. As do the angels (Gen 18:4-5; Gen 19:18) who together make up the members of the YHVH family (1 Co 8:5;Eph 3:14-15). Which we hope to one day join.

I understand the difference here, but you did say there are two Gods, so the inference is that there are two Lords, and not just one.

So are you saying Jesus is Lord, and the Father is not, or are you saying we have two Lords, and if we have two Lords, why doesn't it say Lords of Lords?

3. Mainly due to a difference roles. The Father's role is to assign/create, not rule over Lord's . Christ's role will be to rule over them. It's loosely similar to a CEO of a company creating subordinate leadership positions and having his right-hand man "rule" or "manage" them. Neither one are Lord's over the others prospective roles, hence justifying the singular title.

So if you, I or anyone else we know back then just happens to touch the arc we die. That sounds pretty unapproachable to me.

4. You might. Not sure I would, as I have Levite ancestry. :)

I probably should have been clearer in stating how I was the parallelism and contrast at 1Timothy 6:13-16. Compare all the machinations and convolutions to approach the inner temple or arc to how approachable Jesus was. Also compare what happened to those who touched the arc without permission to those who grabbed the hem of Jesus' garment. It meant death to one, and good health to the other. I see all this destroyed with your interpretation of 1 Timothy 6:13-16.

5. I do not see any parallel between 1 Ti 6:13-16 and 1 Ch 15:2 and 2 sa 6:7. Paul states The Father dwells in unapproachable light whom no man has or can see. The OT and NT Christ was approachable and was seen (even if it was only His back parts).

God the Father is immortal. So aren’t the Holy Spirit and the pre-incarnate Christ
. God (Jesus) condescended and became mortal...essentially the immortal becoming mortal.

6. No. It states The Father "alone" was immortal. That would exclude everyone else from "deathlessness" including Christ. The logical conclusion is The Father is the only inherently immortal One who can terminated any being's life--human or spirit--including Christ's. Thus indicating Christ was part of the created order, supported by several passages.

We see the sun, but only through a distance and the filter of our atmosphere. If we were to witness the entire "glory" of the sun....its brilliance, heat, and fire....we would be ash, so how much more can we not behold the glory of the living God who created and gave light to billions upon billions of such things?

7. The analogy is incongruous to the passage. It implies no "man" has or can see and approach the Father. In 1 Ti 6:16,Thayer's Lexicon lists the adjective "no" [G3762] as absolute

Actually, it leaves God alone as the one who is immortal and cannot die.

8. Yes but there is only "one" of the two "God" beings described in 1 Tim 6:15-16. It cannot be God the Son, as I've demonstrated, He was seen in both His human and glorified state. God the Father is the only alternative, which opens up a can of doctrinal worms for Binitarians and Trinitarians.

I agree the incarnate Christ died for our sins so that we may have life, but there is no “created Christ”.

9. The scriptures testify otherwise.

This assertion leads to conflict:

You state God assigns position of leadership. I don't have a problem with this. You state Jesus is Lord of Lords, and I have no problem with this either.

But then you state God is the supreme God and Jesus is a separate junior God which immediately leads the believer into conflict.

1. Both Jesus and God are referred to as "Lord" or "King" in scripture.

2. If Jesus is Lord and God the Father merely assigns position, then Jesus is Lord and the Father is not. This leads the believer immediately into conflict. If the uncreated God is not Lord, why on earth (or heaven) is He proclaiming Himself Lord at Exodus 20:2?

3. If the Father is Lord then Jesus is not, as there is only one Lord of Lords. Unfortunately this labels Jesus the impostor and the believer into additional scriptural conflict.

4. If both are Lords, then why are there no Lords of Lords (plural) and only a Lord of Lords (singular)? Your explanation indicates there is only one, and I agree with it. It shows the difference, which I also agree with. But I think we can both agree there are no Lord(s) of Lords, so we can safely take two "Lords" off the table.

5. Perhaps Jesus and the Father are taking turns as Lord, with one wearing his “Lord” hat one moment, and the other wearing it the next? But that would be unwieldy and reminiscent of Modalism, and neither of us subscribe to that.
clear.png


7. The only way I see resolving this from an Arian perspective is to insert the word "other" into the text, so that Jesus is "Lord of all [other] Lords" and "King of all [other] Kings", much like the Watchtower does with their bible in various places.

10. No conflict at all. You seemed to have asked the same question from several different angles. Point 3 answers them all.

6. This takes us back to Number 2 or 3... Either Jesus or the Father is Lord of Lords and our comments appear to agree that Jesus is "Lord" in "Lord of Lords". But who assigns him thus?

11. I'm assuming you are asking who assigns Christ as Lord of Lords--I thought I answered that in a previous post. The one who assigns positions of leadership (Ps 2:6; Mat 20:23; Act 10:42)--The Father.

Under Arian theology, we have none other than the senior God (Father) assigning His created junior God(Jesus) as His Lord, so now God junior is "Lord" of God senior (since both are "Lords")!

But unlike the Witnesses I’ve run across, you seem more interested in accuracy than fumbling to show how quickly you can agree with the changing beliefs of an organization. I applaud you for this, but I disagree with your analysis.

12. I try to be as textually accurate as possible. I also realize I am subject to mistakes/oversights like everyone else, which forces me to keep my mind ajar to anyone who can logically present scriptural truth. We can agree to disagree. It will all be straightened out soon.

I understand you’re not a Watchtower Arian, but based on their theology it’s the only avenue I can see for scriptural harmonization.8. Lastly, it seems to me that from a Trinitarian perspective (Jesus is Yahweh) such scriptural “conflicts” are more easily resolved, but from an Arian perspective things tend to get convoluted and messy quite quickly.

13. I stay away from "theologies" and focus on the text. BTW..This doctrine was around long before Arius.
I to believe Jesus is a member of the God/YHVH family.
 
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Oeste

Well-Known Member
I try to be as textually accurate as possible. I also realize I am subject to mistakes/oversights like everyone else, which forces me to keep my mind ajar to anyone who can logically present scriptural truth. We can agree to disagree. It will all be straightened out soon.

I agree! We can agree to disagree, and I agree with you it'll all be straightened out soon (but believe me, with the lack of critical thinking and way things are going, it seems "soon" can't get here soon enough) :)

As it is written:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Cor 13:12).

I suspect we'll both be handed our share of eye openers that day, perhaps you wondering how you could have ever believed the silliness of this or that while sipping strawberry daiquiris, I wondering over my former delusions with a moscow mule (ginger + virtually anything = awesome!) in hand.

However there are those who say we can't agree to disagree, but only agree (or disagree) to whatever it is they happen to agree (or disagree) with. They've assured me they see through the glass clearly and to them alone is the bible an open book. They strongly suggest I (and virtually everyone at every church I've attended) may never get a chance to mull anything (except the giant meteor headed our way) unless we get on board now. Their literature is the main reason I ended up here, so I'll direct most of my attention towards them as my limited time permits.

Until then thank you for taking the time to engage in respectful, thoughtful and vigorous conversation.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
I agree! We can agree to disagree, and I agree with you it'll all be straightened out soon (but believe me, with the lack of critical thinking and way things are going, it seems "soon" can't get here soon enough) :)

As it is written:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Cor 13:12).

I suspect we'll both be handed our share of eye openers that day, perhaps you wondering how you could have ever believed the silliness of this or that while sipping strawberry daiquiris, I wondering over my former delusions with a moscow mule (ginger + virtually anything = awesome!) in hand.

However there are those who say we can't agree to disagree, but only agree (or disagree) to whatever it is they happen to agree (or disagree) with. They've assured me they see through the glass clearly and to them alone is the bible an open book. They strongly suggest I (and virtually everyone at every church I've attended) may never get a chance to mull anything (except the giant meteor headed our way) unless we get on board now. Their literature is the main reason I ended up here, so I'll direct most of my attention towards them as my limited time permits.

Until then thank you for taking the time to engage in respectful, thoughtful and vigorous conversation.

Most definitely. The feeling is mutual. As far as those who claim they have the inside track on "truth", I think Friedrich Nietzsche loosely paraphrases Paul's words nicely:

"There are no facts, only interpretations"​
 

12jtartar

Active Member
Premium Member
Oeste,
Why is it that you don't just listen to what Jesus said about his Father, John 17:3, Jesus said that his Father is the ONE TRUE GOD, who sent Jesus to earth.
Any time you speak about lords or Gods, and you speak of only one, it means that there is only one supreme God, and only one supreme Lord. As the Bible says, there are many CALLED lords or gods, but to the Christian,there is only one God, the Father, and one lord,Jesus Christ, 1Corinthians 8:4-6.
Consider Isaiah 9:6,7. Here Jesus is called a mighty god, the Hebrew word is El Gabbohr, while the Hebrew word for his Father, Jehovah, is El Shaddai, Almighty God.
Notice some of the distinguishing attributes of God, Psalms 83:18, 86:8,10, 89:6,7, 95:3, 96:4,5, 97:7,9.
According to what the Bible says, there is no other God, supreme one, but Jehovah, Isaiah 43:10-13.
 

12jtartar

Active Member
Premium Member
james2ko,
My understanding is; these scriptures describe God, only God "has" immortality, meaning that He has immortality, and He can bestow immortality on others. Jehovah God is immortal, and He has made Jesus immortal, after He resurrected Jesus, Romans 6:9. A Little Flock of Anointed Christians will also be resurrected to be immortal, 1Corinthians 15:51-54.
Another point you might rethink; Jesus was not an incarnation, Jesus was a MAN!!! God, his Father put the seed of Jesus inside Mary's womb, and Jesus grew inside her until birth, as an infant, and grew to become a MAN, Romans 7:15,17,19, 1Corinthians 15:21,45-47. The only time the term incarnation can, correctly be applied to Jesus was after his resurrection, when he stayed on earth for forty days, During that time he took on fleshly bodies, and was not, at first, recognized by his disciples. Jesus had to be a perfect MAN, because he was a corresponding ransom for us, so we can gain back what Adam lost for us, perfect human life.
About creation; Jesus was the first of God's creations, Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14. Jesus was called the Only Begotten Son, which means that Jesus was created when only God was in existence, and he made Jesus completely by Himself. After He created Jesus, God used Jesus in all other creations, as the Bible says through Jesus, and for Jesus, Colossians 1:16, 17, 1Corinthians 8:6, Hebrews 1:2. Many theologians believe that Jesus is the one spoken about in the eighth chapter of Proverbs, 8:22-31. This was actually wisdom, the wisdom from Jesus.
In Hebrew the Tetragrammaton, YHWH, was Jehovah God. He was also The Almighty God, El Shaddai. At Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called a mighty god. Mighty is a long way from Almighty!!! John 14:28, is where Jesus said that the Father is greater than I am. Jesus called his Father, his God, and our Father and God.
The terms, Accommodation, and Anthropomorphisms, are to let us know that the words used in the Bible are used the same way that we use words in our everyday life, so we would not be confused if we heard heavenly words, or unusual terms, father means father, Proverbs 23:22. God means the supreme one. The term Almighty is mutually exclusive, there can be only one Almighty!!!
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Oeste,
Why is it that you don't just listen to what Jesus said about his Father, John 17:3, Jesus said that his Father is the ONE TRUE GOD, who sent Jesus to earth....
....Consider Isaiah 9:6,7. Here Jesus is called a mighty god, the Hebrew word is El Gabbohr, while the Hebrew word for his Father, Jehovah, is El Shaddai, Almighty God.

How many Gods do you have tartar? If the Father is the ONE TRUE GOD then what is Jesus? The OTHER TRUE GOD, a god who's really not a God, or simply a god like Ba'al, only "mightier"?

And where do we put this additional god or God? Behind the Father, in front of the Father, beside the Father, or between us and the Father?
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
james2ko,
My understanding is; these scriptures describe God, only God "has" immortality, meaning that He has immortality, and He can bestow immortality on others. Jehovah God is immortal, and He has made Jesus immortal, after He resurrected Jesus, Romans 6:9. A Little Flock of Anointed Christians will also be resurrected to be immortal, 1Corinthians 15:51-54.
Another point you might rethink; Jesus was not an incarnation, Jesus was a MAN!!! God, his Father put the seed of Jesus inside Mary's womb, and Jesus grew inside her until birth, as an infant, and grew to become a MAN, Romans 7:15,17,19, 1Corinthians 15:21,45-47. The only time the term incarnation can, correctly be applied to Jesus was after his resurrection, when he stayed on earth for forty days, During that time he took on fleshly bodies, and was not, at first, recognized by his disciples. Jesus had to be a perfect MAN, because he was a corresponding ransom for us, so we can gain back what Adam lost for us, perfect human life.
About creation; Jesus was the first of God's creations, Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14. Jesus was called the Only Begotten Son, which means that Jesus was created when only God was in existence, and he made Jesus completely by Himself. After He created Jesus, God used Jesus in all other creations, as the Bible says through Jesus, and for Jesus, Colossians 1:16, 17, 1Corinthians 8:6, Hebrews 1:2. Many theologians believe that Jesus is the one spoken about in the eighth chapter of Proverbs, 8:22-31. This was actually wisdom, the wisdom from Jesus.
In Hebrew the Tetragrammaton, YHWH, was Jehovah God. He was also The Almighty God, El Shaddai. At Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called a mighty god. Mighty is a long way from Almighty!!! John 14:28, is where Jesus said that the Father is greater than I am. Jesus called his Father, his God, and our Father and God.
The terms, Accommodation, and Anthropomorphisms, are to let us know that the words used in the Bible are used the same way that we use words in our everyday life, so we would not be confused if we heard heavenly words, or unusual terms, father means father, Proverbs 23:22. God means the supreme one. The term Almighty is mutually exclusive, there can be only one Almighty!!!

I agree for the most part. The Father is the only immortal being. Meaning the only being who cannot be destroyed and/or die. I believe one of Christ's many roles was that of an angelic architect. A one of a kind, created [yatzar] God (Isa 43:10), who later became a one of kind [monogenes] created (born) human (Joh 1:18). One of the many parallels in scripture. Not sure I agree with YHVH only referring to the Father. YHVH is a family name given to the family of God in heaven and on earth (Eph 3:14-15). There is scriptural evidence of more than two YHVH's.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Oeste said "That would mean Christ was created with glory that God specifically states he refuses to give anyone. How can that happen?"

I believe Jesus was created with God's spirit resident so the Glory that is God's is present with God's spirit. It did not have to be given and wasn't.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I agree for the most part. The Father is the only immortal being. Meaning the only being who cannot be destroyed and/or die. I believe one of Christ's many roles was that of an angelic architect. A one of a kind, created [yatzar] God (Isa 43:10), who later became a one of kind [monogenes] created (born) human (Joh 1:18). One of the many parallels in scripture. Not sure I agree with YHVH only referring to the Father. YHVH is a family name given to the family of God in heaven and on earth (Eph 3:14-15). There is scriptural evidence of more than two YHVH's.

I believe there is no evidence to support this view.

I believe you have been proven wrong on this before.

I believe this word suggests a change in essence but that is not the case. God does not become human, He just embodies one.

I believe this is just another misinterpretation on your part.

I believe I have never seen any.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member

I believe there is no evidence to support this view
1. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made (KJV)

I believe you have been proven wrong on this before

2. By whom? Please post link to post(s).
I believe this word suggests a change in essence but that is not the case. God does not become human, He just embodies one
Mat_4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted [G3985] by the devil.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted [G3985] as we are, yet without sin.
3. If Jesus was an embodiment of God Himself and not merely a full human with the holy spirit, He would have technically been God. This creates an inconsistency with Jas 1:13 for he would not have been tempted by the devil, for God cannot be tempted by evil:

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted [G3985] by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

I believe this is just another misinterpretation on your part.
4. Perhaps. But one you have yet to prove.
I believe I have never seen any.
5. While reading Gen 18-19 , google and carefully consider the "134 emendations of the sopherim" in Gen 18:3 and 19:18. The syntax (particularly the plural pronouns) give an indication of more than two angels being referred to as YHVH , just as Eph 3:14-15 indicates. The sopherim claimed they altered the term YHVH to adonai due to overzealous reverence for the name YHVH. I believe the change was motivated by the fact the text contained more YHVH's than their religion warranted.
 
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djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
About creation; Jesus was the first of God's creations, Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14. Jesus was called the Only Begotten Son, which means that Jesus was created when only God was in existence, and he made Jesus completely by Himself.

This is not true! Why do JW's insist on teaching that God created Jesus "FIRST"? I really don't understand this reasoning at all. The WT teaches that Jesus was Michael in Heaven, and He didn't become Jesus until He was born a human. So how could "Jesus" be God's first creation? It would have to be Michael that God created first, and through Michael, God created everything else.

*** rs p. 218 Jesus Christ ***
Is Jesus Christ the same person as Michael the archangel?

The name of this Michael appears only five times in the Bible. The glorious spirit person who bears the name is referred to as “one of the chief princes,” “the great prince who has charge of your [Daniel’s] people,” and as “the archangel.” (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9, RS) Michael means “Who Is Like God?” The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies.

At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (RS), the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael. Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority? Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ. (Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one.)

Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16) Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31) Daniel 12:1 (RS) associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael "before" he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God.

By your own literature, God did not create "Jesus" first, He created "Michael" first and through Michael, He created everything else, correct? If Jesus was known as Michael "BEFORE" He came to earth, then God created Michael first, not Jesus.
 
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