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JW's Preach A Different Gospel

moorea944

Well-Known Member
What don't you believe is true? I'm glad you said God died for us. That is truth!

I don't believe that the death of Jesus would be meaningless if He were not God but it certainly would have a different meaning.

The fact that God died is only a half truth. Usually the way it works is that a person dies then the spirit leaves the body (hopefully) but Jesus left the body before it died. The result is the same. Jesus was no longer in the body and the body was dead. However technically God was not present when the body died so one can also say that He didn't die.[/QUOTE]

The fact that God died is only a half truth. Usually the way it works is that a person dies then the spirit leaves the body (hopefully) but Jesus left the body before it died. The result is the same. Jesus was no longer in the body and the body was dead. However technically God was not present when the body died so one can also say that He didn't die.

A few things you mention here that are not scriptural. First of all, you mentioned that the fact that God died is half the truth. Scripture tells us that God and angels cannot die. So there is no truth in your statement. Are you talking about how Jesus died? If so, that's different.

Usually the way it works is that a person dies then the spirit leaves the body

What is spirit for you? Spirit in the bible is the "breathe". Sometimes it can be written different ways, but mostly breath. Stephen gave up his spirit. He gave up his breathe. That's all.

Jesus was no longer in the body and the body was dead. However technically God was not present when the body died so one can also say that He didn't die.

Jesus was no longer in the body? I think you actually believe that we have somethings else in us like a "soul". A soul is a living person, not something else given to us.

Jesus was dead for three days. He didnt go anywhere else. Scripture tells us that when your dead, your dead until you are raised. Psalms and Eccl tells us that.
Plus, God is always present, His spirit is everywhere. And technically, Jesus did die. Bible tells us that. We shouldnt put our own beliefs into our faith. If so, we start to go down a different path.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I don't believe that the death of Jesus would be meaningless if He were not God but it certainly would have a different meaning.

The fact that God died is only a half truth. Usually the way it works is that a person dies then the spirit leaves the body (hopefully) but Jesus left the body before it died. The result is the same. Jesus was no longer in the body and the body was dead. However technically God was not present when the body died so one can also say that He didn't die.



A few things you mention here that are not scriptural. First of all, you mentioned that the fact that God died is half the truth. Scripture tells us that God and angels cannot die. So there is no truth in your statement. Are you talking about how Jesus died? If so, that's different.

What is spirit for you? Spirit in the bible is the "breathe". Sometimes it can be written different ways, but mostly breath. Stephen gave up his spirit. He gave up his breathe. That's all.

Jesus was no longer in the body? I think you actually believe that we have somethings else in us like a "soul". A soul is a living person, not something else given to us.

Jesus was dead for three days. He didnt go anywhere else. Scripture tells us that when your dead, your dead until you are raised. Psalms and Eccl tells us that.
Plus, God is always present, His spirit is everywhere. And technically, Jesus did die. Bible tells us that. We shouldnt put our own beliefs into our faith. If so, we start to go down a different path.[/QUOTE]

I believe you are in error on this.

I believe you could provide the scripture which would be helpful but I believe you are referring to something in the OT and the meaning is that God can't go out of existence since God is not perceived as existing in a body in the OT.

I believe your conclusion is false because your premise is false.

I believe I am and that it is not different.

I believe you are greatly in error on this. A spirit is an intelligent being just as God is.

I believe a soul is the body with a spirit in it.

I believe scripture says He left the body.

I believe you are vastly misinformed. Scriptures that view it that way don't tell the whole story.

I believe I do not do so but believe what Jesus teaches me as opposed to some who believe what men teach them.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
A few things you mention here that are not scriptural. First of all, you mentioned that the fact that God died is half the truth. Scripture tells us that God and angels cannot die. So there is no truth in your statement. Are you talking about how Jesus died? If so, that's different.

What is spirit for you? Spirit in the bible is the "breathe". Sometimes it can be written different ways, but mostly breath. Stephen gave up his spirit. He gave up his breathe. That's all.

Jesus was no longer in the body? I think you actually believe that we have somethings else in us like a "soul". A soul is a living person, not something else given to us.

Jesus was dead for three days. He didnt go anywhere else. Scripture tells us that when your dead, your dead until you are raised. Psalms and Eccl tells us that.
Plus, God is always present, His spirit is everywhere. And technically, Jesus did die. Bible tells us that. We shouldnt put our own beliefs into our faith. If so, we start to go down a different path.

I believe you are in error on this.

I believe you could provide the scripture which would be helpful but I believe you are referring to something in the OT and the meaning is that God can't go out of existence since God is not perceived as existing in a body in the OT.

I believe your conclusion is false because your premise is false.

I believe I am and that it is not different.

I believe you are greatly in error on this. A spirit is an intelligent being just as God is.

I believe a soul is the body with a spirit in it.

I believe scripture says He left the body.

I believe you are vastly misinformed. Scriptures that view it that way don't tell the whole story.

I believe I do not do so but believe what Jesus teaches me as opposed to some who believe what men teach them.
[/QUOTE]

I believe you are greatly in error on this. A spirit is an intelligent being just as God is.

Yes, a spirit (ruach) can pertain to man's breath. It can also be written in different ways too. But never something that goes out of the body. There are also spirit beings, such as God or angels. That is different. We need to look up certain words in their org, language. The bible wasnt written in English.

There is nothing anywhere in the Bible that makes a difference between a man and his body, or indicates that a man can exist apart from his body. We have seen that God made man (himself) of the dust of the ground, and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and "HE (the man) became a living soul" or creature. The dust-formed being itself became a living creature.

This certainly refers to the body formed out of the dust. God did not breathe into it a "living soul." That is not what it says. It says the breath of life - breathed in - made the dust-formed man a "living soul."

It is never said to be immortal: always the very opposite. It is over 300 times spoken of as being able to die, naturally liable to death, being killed (32 times), actually dead (13 times), and going to the grave (13 times). For example - "None can keep alive his own soul (Heb. nephesh)" (psa 22:29). "Shall he deliver his soul (Heb. nephesh) from the hand of the grave?" (psa 89:48). "He spared not their soul (Heb. nephesh) from death" (psa 78:50).
And the New Testament picture is the same (where the Greek equivalent for "soul" is "psuche").

To translate "psuche" by "immortal soul" in any of the above places would create an absurdity. Paul makes it inescapably clear that a "living soul" is a "natural body" when he says.....
"There is a natural (Greek: psuchikon from psuche: soulish) body, and there is a spiritual (pneumatikon) body. And so it is written, "The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psuche); the last Adam (Jesus) was made a quickening spirit (pneuma)" (1co 15:44).

I believe scripture says He left the body.

Scripture doesnt tell us that. One cannot leave his own body when he is dead. Scripture tells us that when your dead, you cant love, hate, worship God, remember anything, etc. So why would you want to believe in something different? Can you give us a verse that Jesus died and left his body?
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
I don't believe that the death of Jesus would be meaningless if He were not God but it certainly would have a different meaning.

The fact that God died is only a half truth. Usually the way it works is that a person dies then the spirit leaves the body (hopefully) but Jesus left the body before it died. The result is the same. Jesus was no longer in the body and the body was dead. However technically God was not present when the body died so one can also say that He didn't die.
My point was that Jesus is God! JW's don't believe that. They preach another gospel.
 
Satan has all of you arguing among yourselves as to which of you has the best lie. Paul said he preaches Jesus as Christ and him crucified. You all, except the agnostics, have Jesus paying some sort of penalty. You don't have a single verse to fall back on. Jesus said he came in the name of the Father but they would not accept him (John 5:43). Name in Hebrew means one's character. If the Jews would have accepted him as the Christ he WOULD NOT HAVE HAD TO DIE! He came to show what God was like because Satan had the entire world believing in a god that had to be appeased by sacrifice. Jesus in showing God's character freely allowed his creation to kill him with complete submission (Isaiah 50:6 & 53:7). He showed as the apostles described Jesus as having agape love. Agape means unconditional love. God would rather die than harm ANY of his creation. All you who preach a god of retribution are going to be very surprised at the second coming.

JOHN 12 : 48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; THAT VERY WORD which I spoke will condemn him at THE LAST DAY."

You are going to condemn yourself on the last day because you refuse to believe he is the image of the Father-agape love. None of you seem to know that this earth is going to rupture and explode the last day just as it did at the flood. The time of the flood was a milder explosion because it ruptured at 212 degrees when the fountains of the deep turned to steam. But they were released to the surface and now the earth will not explode until the solids become liquid and then gas as our core overheats. No one believes it, so there is no need to go into great detail

2 PETER 3 : 10 "The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire"

God is coming to earth with New Jerusalem just before it blows to rescue any that want to come

HEBREWS 12 : 27 "The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken-that is, CREATED THINGS-so that what CANNOT BE SHAKEN may remain."

Everything in this solar system has been created. Something from outside this creation is coming to take us to heaven.

PSALM 125 : 1 "Those who trust in the Lord are like Mount Zion, which CANNOT BE SHAKEN but endures forever."
HEBREWS 13 : 14 "For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come."

JOHN 5 : 28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when ALL who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out"

You all either teach that the earth isn't going to be destroyed (J.W.) or that you're going to float into heaven before it does. Going to be a shock when your standing on an earth that is convulsing all around you. You look around and there is the city. Do you who preach a punishing god run into the city? Guess what, No you don't and why?

ZECHARIAH 2 : 5 "And I myself will be a wall of fire around it.

Paul told us that the Jews were our example and not to follow their rebellious ways. At Mount Sinai they thought God's appearance was a devouring fire. God's appearance to all who preach a punishing god is going to look like what you preach hell looks like. As Jesus said God's word that you reject will condemn you the last day.

ISAIAH 2 : 19 "Men will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from DREAD OF THE LORD and the SPLENDOR OF HIS MAJESTY (His appearance), when he rises to shake the earth."

PSALM 53 : 4&5 "Will evil doers never learn....................There they were overwhelmed with dread, when there was nothing to dread."

PSALM 9 : 18 "The wicked RETURN to the grave, all the nations that forget God."

So, you spend a thousand years back in the grave, but you'll have learned to trust in a loving God.

After the earth has received its thousand year rest God will welcome you back. He can't help himself, he is agape love.

2 TIMOTHY 2 : 13 "If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for HE CANNOT DISOWN HIMSELF."

REVELATION 7 : 12 "Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever."
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
Satan has all of you arguing among yourselves as to which of you has the best lie. Paul said he preaches Jesus as Christ and him crucified. You all, except the agnostics, have Jesus paying some sort of penalty. You don't have a single verse to fall back on. Jesus said he came in the name of the Father but they would not accept him (John 5:43). Name in Hebrew means one's character. If the Jews would have accepted him as the Christ he WOULD NOT HAVE HAD TO DIE! He came to show what God was like because Satan had the entire world believing in a god that had to be appeased by sacrifice. Jesus in showing God's character freely allowed his creation to kill him with complete submission (Isaiah 50:6 & 53:7). He showed as the apostles described Jesus as having agape love. Agape means unconditional love. God would rather die than harm ANY of his creation. All you who preach a god of retribution are going to be very surprised at the second coming.

JOHN 12 : 48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; THAT VERY WORD which I spoke will condemn him at THE LAST DAY."

You are going to condemn yourself on the last day because you refuse to believe he is the image of the Father-agape love. None of you seem to know that this earth is going to rupture and explode the last day just as it did at the flood. The time of the flood was a milder explosion because it ruptured at 212 degrees when the fountains of the deep turned to steam. But they were released to the surface and now the earth will not explode until the solids become liquid and then gas as our core overheats. No one believes it, so there is no need to go into great detail

2 PETER 3 : 10 "The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire"

God is coming to earth with New Jerusalem just before it blows to rescue any that want to come

HEBREWS 12 : 27 "The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken-that is, CREATED THINGS-so that what CANNOT BE SHAKEN may remain."

Everything in this solar system has been created. Something from outside this creation is coming to take us to heaven.

PSALM 125 : 1 "Those who trust in the Lord are like Mount Zion, which CANNOT BE SHAKEN but endures forever."
HEBREWS 13 : 14 "For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come."

JOHN 5 : 28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when ALL who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out"

You all either teach that the earth isn't going to be destroyed (J.W.) or that you're going to float into heaven before it does. Going to be a shock when your standing on an earth that is convulsing all around you. You look around and there is the city. Do you who preach a punishing god run into the city? Guess what, No you don't and why?

ZECHARIAH 2 : 5 "And I myself will be a wall of fire around it.

Paul told us that the Jews were our example and not to follow their rebellious ways. At Mount Sinai they thought God's appearance was a devouring fire. God's appearance to all who preach a punishing god is going to look like what you preach hell looks like. As Jesus said God's word that you reject will condemn you the last day.

ISAIAH 2 : 19 "Men will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from DREAD OF THE LORD and the SPLENDOR OF HIS MAJESTY (His appearance), when he rises to shake the earth."

PSALM 53 : 4&5 "Will evil doers never learn....................There they were overwhelmed with dread, when there was nothing to dread."

PSALM 9 : 18 "The wicked RETURN to the grave, all the nations that forget God."

So, you spend a thousand years back in the grave, but you'll have learned to trust in a loving God.

After the earth has received its thousand year rest God will welcome you back. He can't help himself, he is agape love.

2 TIMOTHY 2 : 13 "If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for HE CANNOT DISOWN HIMSELF."

REVELATION 7 : 12 "Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever."

Well, Jesus still had to die. His death made God right. He had to put sin (sin nature, sin in the flesh) to death. He is the first fruits of the resurrection and eternal life. He shows us what we must do. But we do it through baptism. When we are baptized, we are baptized into his death and resurrection.

Read 1 Cor 15. It tells us that if Christ wasnt raised we would still be in our sins and we would have no hope. So Christ had to die. He shows us that our sin nature has to be put to death.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
My point was that Jesus is God! JW's don't believe that. They preach another gospel.

I believe there is nothing in the Gospel of either Jesus or Paul about Jesus being God so technically that isn't the reason. I believe they teach that the Spirit is only the power of God and that is contrary to the Gospel of Jesus which preaches the kingdom of God is within you.

I do agree that if one considers the whole of the NT as a gospel then the JW's do preach a false image of it by saying that Jesus isn't God and many other false teachings as well.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe there is nothing in the Gospel of either Jesus or Paul about Jesus being God so technically that isn't the reason. I believe they teach that the Spirit is only the power of God and that is contrary to the Gospel of Jesus which preaches the kingdom of God is within you.

I do agree that if one considers the whole of the NT as a gospel then the JW's do preach a false image of it by saying that Jesus isn't God and many other false teachings as well.
I think the main point is that Jehovah's Witnesses are led by the governing body, but Jesus is leader.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Well, Jesus still had to die. His death made God right. He had to put sin (sin nature, sin in the flesh) to death. He is the first fruits of the resurrection and eternal life. He shows us what we must do. But we do it through baptism. When we are baptized, we are baptized into his death and resurrection.

Read 1 Cor 15. It tells us that if Christ wasnt raised we would still be in our sins and we would have no hope. So Christ had to die. He shows us that our sin nature has to be put to death.

I believe God is always right so nothing can make Him right.

I would agree with this if there were evidence. Do you have any?

I believe this correctly states what Paul said.

I believe this is general enough to be true.

I believe the "but" is stating that you have an alternate view of what to do from that stated by Jesus but I doubt that was your intention.

I believe this is a Pauline statement and derivative. The question I have is how one views this ie as baptism the mechanics of it or simply the statement that the mechanics take place.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I think the main point is that Jehovah's Witnesses are led by the governing body, but Jesus is leader.
I believe governing bodies have a tendency to view themselves as the ones who form doctrine. I encountered this with another Christian Group where I was told that it didn't matter what the Bible said because the Church leaders taught something and that was not going to change. So JW's don't have a corner on this but they do have more error per inch of text than any other group.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
I believe God is always right so nothing can make Him right.

I would agree with this if there were evidence. Do you have any?

I believe this correctly states what Paul said.

I believe this is general enough to be true.

I believe the "but" is stating that you have an alternate view of what to do from that stated by Jesus but I doubt that was your intention.

I believe this is a Pauline statement and derivative. The question I have is how one views this ie as baptism the mechanics of it or simply the statement that the mechanics take place.

I believe God is always right so nothing can make Him right.

God is right so nothing can make Him right? What?

I would agree with this if there were evidence. Do you have any?

Your kidding me, right?

I believe the "but" is stating that you have an alternate view of what to do from that stated by Jesus but I doubt that was your intention.

I dont have an alternate view, maybe I should have said "and". Maybe that would have been easier for you to understand.

I believe this is a Pauline statement and derivative. The question I have is how one views this ie as baptism the mechanics of it or simply the statement that the mechanics take place.

Maybe you can read 1 Cor 15 again along with other chapters that explain it then if you dont understand it. Is there anything else you dont understand that I can help you with?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
God is right so nothing can make Him right? What?

Your kidding me, right?

I dont have an alternate view, maybe I should have said "and". Maybe that would have been easier for you to understand.

Maybe you can read 1 Cor 15 again along with other chapters that explain it then if you dont understand it. Is there anything else you dont understand that I can help you with?

How does His death make God right? I believe God is already right. Maybe you mean right with man but I believe it takes two to tango.

Come now, you must enjoy quoting scripture, don't you?

I believe you should say what you mean. I believe Jesus gave us many things to do and baptism is only one of them and it is not necessary to be baptized every time one does something.

I didn't find my answer there but this makes sense: Ro 6:3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
The thing is however that baptism does not cause this and it can occur outside of baptism. Paul is just alluding to the symbolism of baptism that gives more meaning to the mechanics.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
How does His death make God right? I believe God is already right. Maybe you mean right with man but I believe it takes two to tango.

Come now, you must enjoy quoting scripture, don't you?

I believe you should say what you mean. I believe Jesus gave us many things to do and baptism is only one of them and it is not necessary to be baptized every time one does something.

I didn't find my answer there but this makes sense: Ro 6:3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
The thing is however that baptism does not cause this and it can occur outside of baptism. Paul is just alluding to the symbolism of baptism that gives more meaning to the mechanics.

How does His death make God right? I believe God is already right. Maybe you mean right with man but I believe it takes two to tango.

Jesus's death made God right in a way that sin in the flesh had to be put to death. When we die, we make God right. When you sin, you die.

Come now, you must enjoy quoting scripture, don't you?

Is that wrong?

I believe you should say what you mean. I believe Jesus gave us many things to do and baptism is only one of them and it is not necessary to be baptized every time one does something.
I agree. You only get baptized once in life. I didnt say anything different.

I didn't find my answer there but this makes sense: Ro 6:3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

That's another one. Awesome verse. Thank you

The thing is however that baptism does not cause this and it can occur outside of baptism. Paul is just alluding to the symbolism of baptism that gives more meaning to the mechanics.

Dont understand what your talking about. Baptism doesnt cause what?..... And why would Paul be "alluding" to anything.
 

12jtartar

Active Member
Premium Member
djhwoodwerks,
Please think about what I write. At Matthew 24:45, Who then is the faithful and wise servant that his master HAS set over his household, to give them their food at the right time, or in due season?
When Jesus put The Apostles over his household, it meant that there would be some living at all times that would be of that group, the faithful and wise servant, right down to the time that Jesus would return. That is what Jesus is saying in the next two verses. Jesus says that when he returns and they are doing his work, he will then put them over all his works.
Jesus knew that there would be disciples of his always and they would need to be fed, with spiritual food, John 21:15-17.
There is much more to understand about this point. These disciples of Jesus, in the first century, and down to now, until the full number is completed, 144,000, are Anointed with Holy Spirit, so as to know, positively, that they are to become Kings and Priests over the earth, and will rule in heaven as co-rulers with Jesus, during The Judgement Day, Revelation 5:9,10, 14:1-5, 20:4-6. These disciples have been Anointed with Holy Spirit, 2Corinthians 1:20,21, Romans 8:14-17, 1John 2:20,27. They are also Sealed, 2Corinthians 1:21, Revelation 7:3,4. This anointed group Jesus called a little flock, Luke 12:32. These are the ones that Jesus said would be Born Again, John 3:3-9. Think about what these scriptures are saying. Then compare these scriptures with John 1:12,13, these are Born of God, not of flesh. Remember at John 3:6 says, what is born of flesh is flesh, but what is born of spirit IS spirit. When they are resurrected they will be spirit creatures, a New Creation, 2Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15.
This relatively small group, 144,000 are to be Kings and Priests in heaven with Jesus, ruling over the earth, which will have billions, notice the contrast at Revelation 7:4, which is the Little Flock, Luke 12:32, and the Great Multitude Revelation 7:9, which will be the ones who come out of the Great Tribulation, Revelation 7:14, and the billions resurrected back to earth, in the Recreation, Matthew 19:28. This regeneration, or recreation will be a bringing BACK to life of the billions, with a body similar to the fleshly body they had before, while the Anointed, Co-rulers with will have a New Creation, as spirit creatures. They will have the same kind of body as Jesus has after his resurrection, a spirit body, 1Peter 3:18, Romans 6:5.
The Bible tells us that their citizenship is in heaven, Philippians 3:20,21. They will be resurrected as immortal, 1Corinthians 15:51-54. Because they will be immortal the Second Death will not affect them, Revelation 20:6, 2:11. The ones resurrected are never to be immortal, for they can die, and many will die during the thousand year judgement day, John 5:28,29, Matthew 25:31,40,41,46. After the Judgement Day of one thousand years, there will be a final test made with Satan being released from the Abyss, and than everlasting life on a paradise earth, Revelation 20:7-10, 21:1-5.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
djhwoodwerks,
Please think about what I write. At Matthew 24:45, Who then is the faithful and wise servant that his master HAS set over his household, to give them their food at the right time, or in due season?
When Jesus put The Apostles over his household, it meant that there would be some living at all times that would be of that group, the faithful and wise servant, right down to the time that Jesus would return. That is what Jesus is saying in the next two verses. Jesus says that when he returns and they are doing his work, he will then put them over all his works.

I would have to say that this is such a radically different gospel that it's difficult to know where to begin, but let's start with your analysis of the parable itself.

Using the same logic (I like when things are consistent) of Matthew 24:45, who do you identify as the servant of Luke 19:15-17?

When did this servant receive money, how did he increase it ten-fold, which ten cities did the servant receive, and when did the servant receive them?

Who is the servant of Luke 19:18 -19, when did he receive money, how did he increase it five fold, what five cities were given, and when did the servant receive them?

Who is the servant of Luke 12:47 who received many blows?

Who is the servant of Luke 12:48 who received few blows?

What blows did they both receive and when did (or does) Jesus administer them?

How long will these two servants receive blows?

Of what significance do you attach the fact that Jesus stated "Who then is the faithful and wise servant" (singular) rather than "Who are the faithful and wise servants" (plural)?

Who then is allowed to pluralize what God made singular? Is it the faithful and wise servant? If so, should we, as Christians, consider such a rendition faithful to scripture or wise on the part of the servant?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
My point was that Jesus is God!

Gospel writer John wrote Revelation, and at Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B John writes Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
According to Psalms 90:2 God had No beginning, No start.
So, since Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God, then Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

In the KJV Bible the same Greek grammar rule applies at John 1:1 and at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B
The letter ' a ' was inserted at Acts, while the letter ' a ' was not used at John.
Even though John is clear at John 1:18 that ' No man has seen God at any time '. - See also 1 John 4:12 and Exodus 33:20
People saw Jesus and lived, so how could people see their God and still live ?
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
Gospel writer John wrote Revelation, and at Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B John writes Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
According to Psalms 90:2 God had No beginning, No start.
So, since Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God, then Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

In the KJV Bible the same Greek grammar rule applies at John 1:1 and at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B
The letter ' a ' was inserted at Acts, while the letter ' a ' was not used at John.
Even though John is clear at John 1:18 that ' No man has seen God at any time '. - See also 1 John 4:12 and Exodus 33:20
People saw Jesus and lived, so how could people see their God and still live ?
Well said.....
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
My point was that Jesus is God! JW's don't believe that. They preach another gospel.

Gospel writer John wrote Revelation, and at Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B John writes Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.

The Watchtower defines the Greek word "arche" as meaning the first in a series, and here as the first in a series of created events. However arche can also mean origin or source, and should be construed as such because any attempt to define it as the Watchtower has introduces conflict into scripture.

For example, If Jesus has a beginning based on Revelation 3:14, then God has a beginning at Revelation 21:5-6:

"And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost."​

Since the Watchtower asserts that Jehovah is speaking at Rev 21:6 and Rev 22:13, if we are to insist that Revelation 3:14 means Jesus has a created beginning, then Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13 mean that God not only has a beginning but a defined end as well! Worse, if they decide to change it (new light) to Jesus speaking, it means Jesus has a beginning and demise.

According to Psalms 90:2 God had No beginning, No start.

Exactly right! And neither does Jesus:

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto Me He that is to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)
How can Jesus be "from everlasting" if he has a beginning or start?
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So, since Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God, then Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

Jesus was not "the beginning of the creation by God". "Arche" (beginning) does not mean he had a start anymore than "telos" (end) means God has a demise. The word "arche" can mean beginning but it can also mean origin or primary source.

Why read an inherent conflict into scripture when there is absolutely no need to do so? As you've already pointed out, saying God has a beginning conflicts with Psalm 90:2. Likewise saying Jesus has a beginning conflicts with Micah 5:2 and Hebrews 13:8.

In the KJV Bible the same Greek grammar rule applies at John 1:1 and at Acts of the Apostles 28:6

Which Geek grammar rule? Certainly not Colwell's.

Unfortunately the "Greek grammar rule" the Watchtower uses to justify the New World Translation's of John 1:1 as "...a god" only appears in the pages of their publications. The Watchtower's Kingdom Interlinear sought to justify "...a god" by misquoting Julius Mantley's Greek Grammar. It turned out rather badly for them:

"Since my name is used and our Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament is quoted on page 744 to seek to justify their translation, I am making this statement… of all the scholars in the world, as far as we know none have translated this verse as Jehovah’s Witnesses have done...".

"In view of the preceding facts, especially because you have been quoting me out of context, I herewith request you not to quote the Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament again, which you have been doing for 24 years. Also that you not quote it or me in any of your publications from this time on.

Also that you publicly and immediately apologize in the Watchtower magazine, since my words had no relevance to the absence of the article before theos in John 1:1…. On the page before the Preface in the grammar are these words: “All rights reserved—no part of this book may be reproduced in any form without permission in writing from the publisher.” If you have such permission, please send me a photocopy of it. If you do not heed these requests you will suffer the consequences."​

Lastly, aside the Watchtower's apparent scholastic dishonesty in quoting Mantley's Grammar Manual, objectively I don't see how they arrived at the conclusion Jesus was God's "first creation".

Jesus could not possibly be the firstborn of "all creation" if he had a beginning. In order to have a "beginning" you must first create time. This would make time the "firstborn" of all God's creation and Jesus the "secondborn" of "all creation" in order for us to implant the idea that Jesus had a "beginning". When I attempt to approach the Watchtower's assertion logically it just doesn't make much sense.

Of course, I freely admit I could be missing something here, which is why I joined this forum. How do you (if you're not a Jehovah Witness) or the Watchtower reason around this?

Even though John is clear at John 1:18 that ' No man has seen God at any time '. - See also 1 John 4:12 and Exodus 33:20.

People saw Jesus and lived, so how could people see their God and still live ?

Isn't this the same question the Pharisees would ask of Jesus? Isn't it similar to Philip's own?

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." (John 14: 6-7)​

Using Jesus' own words above, how would you answer your question?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Jesus ' revealed ' his God - John 14:7-9; John 14:23. Jesus did Not speak of himself - John 14:10 B. Rather, as Jesus already stated at John 12:44.
That is why Jesus could continue to say who was greater than him at John 14:28 which Jesus previously stated at John 10:29 that his Father is greater than all.

God had No beginning, No start - Psalms 90:2. God can Not die.
Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning - Psalms 90:2; Revelation 3:14; John 1:18; 1 John 4:12; Exodus 33:20
God has His throne, and Jesus has his own separate throne - Revelation 3:21
The resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12
 
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