Justification

[angellous_evangellous]

I personally believe that many who profess to be Christians are still spirituality dead to God.

Good for you... had you avoided the Dixie Chicks and listened to Willie like a good Christian, perhaps you would be better off... and, by the way, Hootie is very bad for your health.

 

[sojourner]

Good for you... had you avoided the Dixie Chicks and listened to Willie like a good Christian, perhaps you would be better off... and, by the way, Hootie is very bad for your health.

I, personally have found my own salvation through the trinity of Big & Rich, and Cowboy Troy...reach:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I, personally have found my own salvation through the trinity of Big & Rich, and Cowboy Troy...reach:

Yes, excellent alternatives.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Jesus had to die, because he refused to stop doing and saying the things that got him killed. Jesus, by his death, proved that he believed deeply in what he was teaching and giving us by example -- that these weren't just parlor stunts and half-truths. By his death, Jesus championed the cause of righteousness and grace. Jesus -- as God -- could have prevented his death. He could have simply shut up and laid low. He could have run away. But what would that have merited the Incarnation?

Your interpretations only work if you believe in Substitutionary Atonement -- which I do not.

Your rejection of the substitutionary atonement does not surprise me. Are you saying the death of Christ did not effectually atone for sins? Are you saying the life and death of Jesus Christ did not accomplish forgiveness of sins for those who believe? I think your view makes Jesus' death meaningless and in vain. Of course, your view cannot be supported with all of Scripture revelation. And, we are on the Biblical debate section. Therefore, debating ideas outside of biblical revelation is also done in vain.

Galatians 2:21:
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

[Therefore, I do not treat God's gracious gift as something of minor importance and defeat its very purpose]; I do not set aside and invalidate and frustrate and nullify the grace (unmerited favor) of God. For if justification (righteousness, acquittal from guilt) comes through [observing the ritual of] the Law, then Christ (the Messiah) died groundlessly and to no purpose and in vain. [His death was then wholly superfluous.]

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21

 

[Scott1]

Well, there's plenty to debate about the Bible aside from that...

Have some frubals!

Sad that some view the Bible as a weapon to be used to smite all those who interpret it differently than they do.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Have some frubals!

Sad that some view the Bible as a weapon to be used to smite all those who interpret it differently than they do.

Quite right. It's more useful to just kick them in the pants than get the Bible involved.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Your rejection of the substitutionary atonement does not surprise me. Are you saying the death of Christ did not effectually atone for sins?

I suspect that's exactly what he means... and the vast majority of Christian tradition from Paul through the apostolic fathers on through the Greek fathers.

Luther's heresy does not reach much earlier than him, and few have agreed with him since.

 

[silvermoon383]

Have some frubals!

Sad that some view the Bible as a weapon to be used to smite all those who interpret it differently than they do.

You and me think alike. Here's one of my favorite quotes from Stargate SG-1 (slightly paraphrased to more fit the real world):

"I have not begun to question the will of [God], but I have begun to question the interpretation of [His] words. No matter what you say, I will not believe that the [scriptures] asks us to [ridicule] innocent people, and I will not stand by while the holy doctrine of good will and faith that I have sworn to uphold is twisted into a hammer and used to beat people down!" -Tobin http://christianforums.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=47484215

 

[Scott1]

Luther's heresy does not reach much earlier than him, and few have agreed with him since.

For a fella that rattles on about his "historical Protestantism"--- it seems his faith has very little support from history.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

For a fella that rattles on about his "historical Protestantism"--- it seems his faith has very little support from history.

Ha! Depends on your criteria.

Historical Protestantism is as fragmented and contradictory as it is today.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I find it insightful that the representatives from Mormonism, Roman Catholicism, and Liberal Christianity can make all kinds of irrelevant comments....but are never willing to discuss the actual contents of the Scirptures. Hey guys, this is a Biblical Debate, remember? When you are willing to discuss the actual contents of Scripture, I will continue with you. If you have a low view of the Scriptures, why even post on a Biblical Debate thread?

Hebrews 4:12:
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I find it insightful that the representatives from Mormonism, Roman Catholicism, and Liberal Christianity can make all kinds of irrelevant comments....but are never willing to discuss the actual contents of the Scirptures. Hey guys, this is a Biblical Debate, remember? When you are willing to discuss the actual contents of Scripture, I will continue with you. If you have a low view of the Scriptures, why even post on a Biblical Debate thread?

Hebrews 4:12:
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Yet you posted the Smacald Articles in the OP without any argument concerning the content of any Scriptures.

Posting Scriptures and declaring affinity for them is not the same thing as debating their content.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Yet you posted the Smacald Articles in the OP without any argument concerning the content of any Scriptures.

Posting Scriptures and declaring affinity for them is not the same thing as debating their content.

If you are willing, let's discuss the contents of scripture regarding justification. I believe Martin Luther's understanding of justification is the one found in Scripture alone. First of all, do you believe like your buddy sojourner? If not, do you believe sojourner can base his unorthodox position within the contents of Scripture? Before we debate the doctrine of justification as revealed in all of biblical revelation, I need to know what you think the Scriptures reveal in regards to justification. Do you care to post your understanding of the doctrine of justification, according to the Scriptures?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojourner
Jesus had to die, because he refused to stop doing and saying the things that got him killed. Jesus, by his death, proved that he believed deeply in what he was teaching and giving us by example -- that these weren't just parlor stunts and half-truths. By his death, Jesus championed the cause of righteousness and grace. Jesus -- as God -- could have prevented his death. He could have simply shut up and laid low. He could have run away. But what would that have merited the Incarnation?

Your interpretations only work if you believe in Substitutionary Atonement -- which I do not.

 

[Scott1]

Would you like to discuss and debate the doctrine of justification?

I will (for about the fifth time) offer to join this debate.... any chance you'll actually respond this time?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

IN BRIEF - GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION :

2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.

2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.

2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.

2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.

2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.

2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

2024 Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.

2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.

2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God's gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

2028 "All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity" (LG 40 § 2). "Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none" (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.G 44, 300D).

2029 "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24).

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I will (for about the fifth time) offer to join this debate.... any chance you'll actually respond this time?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

IN BRIEF - GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION :

2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.

2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.

2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.

2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.

2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.

2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

2024 Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.

2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.

2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God's gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

2028 "All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity" (LG 40 § 2). "Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none" (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.G 44, 300D).

2029 "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24).

Hi Scott,

I would love to have a biblical debate on the doctrine of justification. However, the key words are "Biblical debate" since we are on the biblical debate section. We are not on the Roman Catholic section to quote Roman Catholic tradition. My position on biblical justification can be found starting with Romans chapters 3 and 4. The key essential difference between biblical Christianity and Roman Catholicism in the doctrine of justification is imputation (credited, declared) as revealed in the Scriptures. Justification used by Paul is used as a forensic (legal) application and meaning (imputation). Please study Romans chapter 3 and 4 so we can continue this Bibilcal debate.

If you want to discuss Roman Catholic Sacred Traditiion (extra-biblical revelation), here is a good section to discuss it:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/catholic/

 

[Scott1]

I would love to have a biblical debate on the doctrine of justification.

...but you won't.

My position on biblical justification can be found starting with Romans chapters 3 and 4.

Mine too.

Justification used by Paul is used as a forensic (legal) application and meaning (imputation). Please study Romans chapter 3 and 4 so we can continue this Bibilcal debate.

Please show me the verse where the term " forensic (legal) application" is used.

Remember, this is a Biblical debate... I don't want to hear any of your extra-biblical commentary.

 

[Dunemeister]

Justification is important, but it's certainly not Paul's central emphasis. New creation is. Also, the issue with justification isn't who gets into heaven. Rather, it's the basis of one's entry into the people of God given the presence of a large number of Gentile converts. Paul argues that a person's entry into the people of God doesn't hinge on ethnic heritage such as having Jewish parents or ritual prerequisites such as circumcision. Rather, what characterizes the renewed people of God is faith in the God who raised Jesus from the dead (just as in Abraham's case, in which he believed God would raise up Isaac despite his sacrifice, and in the Jewish case in which they believed that God would vindicate his people on the Day of Judgment despite all the appearances to the contrary).

To get at this dynamic, Paul used a number of metaphors, only one of which, and not the most important of which, is "justification."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

...but you won't.

He doesn't realize that Luther's doctrine of justification is Augustinian and not a naked interpretation of Scripture.

 

[Scott1]

He doesn't realize that Luther's doctrine of justification is Augustinian and not a naked interpretation of Scripture.

He does not realize much at all .... seems to think he can offer up his Reformed tradition opinions but that I'm not "allowed" to use support from the early Church that shows how wrong his thinking is about how we are justified.

 

[Scott1]

To get at this dynamic, Paul used a number of metaphors, only one of which, and not the most important of which, is "justification."

Well said... as usual.