Justification

[Fish-Hunter]

Would you like to discuss and debate the doctrine of justification? I was hoping that a Roman Catholic Christian and an LDS Christian could post the official Roman Catholic and LDS position on justification. I believe the heart of the gospel and the Christian message is found in the doctrine of justification. I am not Lutheran, and do not follow Martin Luther to define truth. However, I agree with Luther on his understanding on the doctrine of justification.

Smalcald Articles:

The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24-25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us ... Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls (Mark 13:31).[32]
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[Fish-Hunter]

Would you like to discuss and debate the doctrine of justification? I was hoping that a Roman Catholic Christian and an LDS Christian could post the official Roman Catholic and LDS position on justification. I believe the heart of the gospel and the Christian message is found in the doctrine of justification. I am not Lutheran, and do not follow Martin Luther to define truth. However, I agree with Luther on his understanding on the doctrine of justification.

Smalcald Articles:

The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24-25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us ... Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls (Mark 13:31).[32]
​

Do all of the Christians on Religious Forums agree that we are justified by faith alone? Are we agreeing that we are saved by grace alone through the instrument of faith alone on the basis of the person and work of Christ alone? Within this understanding, we are giving God all the glory for saving the sinner, and there is no boasting in the flesh of personal acts of righteousness. Are we saying that our acts of obediences to the commands of God is done out of gratitude and thankfulness for what God has done in Christ on our behalf?

 

[Dunemeister]

Do all of the Christians on Religious Forums agree that we are justified by faith alone? Are we agreeing that we are saved by grace alone through the instrument of faith alone on the basis of the person and work of Christ alone? Within this understanding, we are giving God all the glory for saving the sinner, and there is no boasting in the flesh of personal acts of righteousness. Are we saying that our acts of obediences to the commands of God is done out of gratitude and thankfulness for what God has done in Christ on our behalf?

Or are we saying that we're bored of the Arminian/Calvinist debate?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I disagree with Luther regarding justification by faith...

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Or are we saying that we're bored of the Arminian/Calvinist debate?

Hi my Christian friend,

Of course we are never bored of that topic. I was on an unplanned vacation from this site, but I'm back now. Should we discuss election, predestination, or any of the 5 points on this thread? Why do people get mad that the Almighty God chooses some sinners as vessels of mercy (rom 9), and passes over the rest to receive what they deserve (wrath of God in eternity)?

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I disagree with Luther regarding justification by faith...

If you disagree, how do you believe wretched sinners like me and you are justified before a Holy God with a consuming fire against those who sin and rebel against Him?

 

[sojourner]

Why do people get mad that the Almighty God chooses some sinners as vessels of mercy (rom 9), and passes over the rest to receive what they deserve (wrath of God in eternity)?

Because even we humans (the civilized ones, at any rate) recognize that the death penalty is harsh and uncalled for. What greater punishment is an eternity of suffering? For what? A very human mistake, wrought from ignorance. If we who are human recognize the concept of the punishment fitting the crime, how much more does God recognize (and practice) that concept. That's why God is merciful and forbearing. In what way does any "sinner" "deserve" an eternity of hell? Why would you want to shortchange God's mercy like that?

 

[sojourner]

If you disagree, how do you believe wretched sinners like me and you are justified before a Holy God with a consuming fire against those who sin and rebel against Him?

Maybe we're not "wretched sinners," but "beloved children." Even rebellious children are not destroyed eternally.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Quote: Fish-Hunter
Why do people get mad that the Almighty God chooses some sinners as vessels of mercy (rom 9), and passes over the rest to receive what they deserve (wrath of God in eternity)?

Because even we humans (the civilized ones, at any rate) recognize that the death penalty is harsh and uncalled for. What greater punishment is an eternity of suffering? For what? A very human mistake, wrought from ignorance. If we who are human recognize the concept of the punishment fitting the crime, how much more does God recognize (and practice) that concept. That's why God is merciful and forbearing. In what way does any "sinner" "deserve" an eternity of hell? Why would you want to shortchange God's mercy like that?

Why do you think Jesus Christ had to die? If you downplay and miminize the consequences of sin according to the Scriptures, you indirectly minimize the glorious grace of God, revealed in the person and work of Jesus Christ who lived and died on behalf of sinners who are deserving of the eternal wrath of God. Christ bore the consequences for our sin as our substitute, receving what we deserve.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

I think Christ had to die so we (the Elect) could escape the comming day of judgement and the eternal wrath of God. I try to base my understanding of Christianity according to the Scriptures and not personal speculation and opinions. Please let me know why you think Jesus Christ had to die.

The Judgment at Christ's Coming

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thes 1

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Maybe we're not "wretched sinners," but "beloved children." Even rebellious children are not destroyed eternally.

Do you believe unbelievers are adopted "beloved children" of God like believers? I find that Scriptures call unbelievers to be children of wrath, children of disobedience, children of Satan, vessels of wrath ... and are not called adopted children of God. I believe Scripture teaches that to be adopted into the family of God, you must be born again (born from above - John 3) through faith in Christ. Please consider the passage below to understand my point:

He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1

 

[angellous_evangellous]

If you disagree, how do you believe wretched sinners like me and you are justified before a Holy God with a consuming fire against those who sin and rebel against Him?

Well, God does not rely on the scattered theologies of a German nutcase in order to act.

 

[Troublemane]

Maybe we're not "wretched sinners," but "beloved children." Even rebellious children are not destroyed eternally.

Exactly, recall the story of the prodigal son? :angel2:

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Well, God does not rely on the scattered theologies of a German nutcase in order to act.

I think you are avoiding the issue and avoiding the question. Here is the question again if you care to answer. Name calling is not an answer to a question. Please remember that we are on the Bible Debate section. Therefore, a biblical response would be highly appreciated.

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter
If you disagree, how do you believe wretched sinners like me and you are justified before a Holy God with a consuming fire against those who sin and rebel against Him?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I think you are avoiding the issue and avoiding the question. Here is the question again if you care to answer. Name calling is not an answer to a question. Please remember that we are on the Bible Debate section. Therefore, a biblical response would be highly appreciated.

Well, you're asking me to explain something that no one understands.

It's a mystery how and why God choses to save people. Martin Luther was completely off-base in his interpretation of it, and certainly anyone who reads Luther's justification by faith into Scripture is perpetuating his errors.

The division of salvation into justification, santification, and glorification forces the activity of God into some kind of artificial vaccum that simply does not exist. God is highly complex and mysterious and her actions are inexplicable.

Col 1.27
27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Well, you're asking me to explain something that no one understands.

It's a mystery how and why God choses to save people. Martin Luther was completely off-base in his interpretation of it, and certainly anyone who reads Luther's justification by faith into Scripture is perpetuating his errors.

The division of salvation into justification, santification, and glorification forces the activity of God into some kind of artificial vaccum that simply does not exist. God is highly complex and mysterious and her actions are inexplicable.

Col 1.27
27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Since we are on the Biblical Debate section, I don't think your response is adequate or responsible. Do you believe the Bible to be God-breathed revelation from above? If so, please consider the Holy Scriptures in your response to the thread. It is one thing to name call a fellow Christian (Martin Luther) to be a lunatic, but the true test to see if Luther was a lunatic is to disprove his theology using all of Scripture. I personally find your postings completely out of line from Biblical revelation. Do you believe the Elect of God receive wisdom from the Spirit through the written Word of God? Personal opinions really don't mean much in the world of biblical Christianity. You haven't even attempted to have a biblical debate.

Wisdom from the Spirit

Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor 2

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Since we are on the Biblical Debate section, I don't think your response is adequate or responsible.

I care. I really do.

Do you believe the Bible to be God-breathed revelation from above? If so, please consider the Holy Scriptures in your response to the thread.

Nope. My participation in this forum does not require my beliefs to be dictated by Scripture.

Nevertheless, I do not believe that Paul or anyone else in the NT considered the Bible to be God's final word.

It is one thing to name call a fellow Christian (Martin Luther) to be a lunatic, but the true test to see if Luther was a lunatic is to disprove his theology using all of Scripture. I personally find your postings completely out of line from Biblical revelation. Do you believe the Elect of God receive wisdom from the Spirit through the written Word of God? Personal opinions really don't mean much in the world of biblical Christianity. You haven't even attempted to have a biblical debate.

Yes, Luther was a nutcase, and it's quite insane to read Scripture through him. I don't care if you find my posts out of line with biblical revelation.

We could debate the Scriptures, but it is doomed to pointlessness due to your incompetence in biblical interpretation.

I've tossed a verse from Colossians out there that you ignored...

We can discuss 2 Timothy 3.15, which obviously does not mean that everything written down was dictated exactly by God...

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Quote: Fish-Hunter
Do you believe the Bible to be God-breathed revelation from above? If so, please consider the Holy Scriptures in your response to the thread.

Nope. My participation in this forum does not require my beliefs to be dictated by Scripture.

Nevertheless, I do not believe that Paul or anyone else in the NT considered the Bible to be God's final word.

We could debate the Scriptures, but it is doomed to pointlessness due to your incompetence in biblical interpretation.

What's the point of having a Biblical debate if the Bible is not the final authority from God pertaining to all things to the Christian Faith and practice of the Christian life? Thank you for sharing your personal beliefs about the Holy Bible. On the topic of justification, I stand on Romans chapters 3 and 4. I find your posting responses to be very unlike Christ.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

What's the point of having a Biblical debate if the Bible is not the final authority from God pertaining to all things to the Christian Faith and practice of the Christian life? Thank you for sharing your personal beliefs about the Holy Bible.

Well, there's plenty to debate about the Bible aside from that...

... like what the Bible means, the nature of the text and its reception, the theology of the writer, the nature of the pagan philosophies that are applied and their history, the meaning of the Greek syntax, the history of the text in Christianity, and how the text can be utilized in a modern theology...

... all of these debates do not require the belief that the Bible is some sort of final perfect revelation of God, but incidentally, if we were to create some sort of monument to this dead god, all of the debates above would be useful in our efforts.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Well, there's plenty to debate about the Bible aside from that...

... like what the Bible means, the nature of the text and its reception, the theology of the writer, the nature of the pagan philosophies that are applied and their history, the meaning of the Greek syntax, the history of the text in Christianity, and how the text can be utilized in a modern theology...

... all of these debates do not require the belief that the Bible is some sort of final perfect revelation of God, but incidentally, if we were to create some sort of monument to this dead god, all of the debates above would be useful in our efforts.

We are all born into this world spirituality dead to God, and we are unable to discern spiritual truth apart from the new birth. Without the Sprit of God, it is impossible to receive the Word of God as the Word of God. Here is the proof text that the children of God receive the Holy Bible as the authoritative Word of God. It is impossible for anyone to convince another of the truth and sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures. I personally believe that many who profess to be Christians are still spirituality dead to God.

And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers. 1 thes 2:13

I Never Knew You

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
- Mat 7

The words "I never knew you" links to predestination and the word of foreknew.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. - Rom 8

 

[sojourner]

Jesus had to die, because he refused to stop doing and saying the things that got him killed. Jesus, by his death, proved that he believed deeply in what he was teaching and giving us by example -- that these weren't just parlor stunts and half-truths. By his death, Jesus championed the cause of righteousness and grace. Jesus -- as God -- could have prevented his death. He could have simply shut up and laid low. He could have run away. But what would that have merited the Incarnation?

Your interpretations only work if you believe in Substitutionary Atonement -- which I do not. Yes, Jesus did die for our sins. Our sins of hubris, self-delusion, and power-mongering. That's what killed Jesus: Power-hungry religious leaders who were pandering to an imperialist, oppressive government.

God created all of us, did God not? Therefore, all of us are created in God's image, and are created inherently good. God's desire is that all should turn to God. Read the 2nd chapter of Philippians: "At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bend."
Since this is God's universe, and since God is love, and since love is unconditional, God loves all of us equally, sees the good within us, celebrates that, and forgives all our sins.

Why would you want to cheapen God's love, God's grace, and God's abundance by allowing human error to be stronger than God's love for us? Paul tells us that nothing can separate us from the love of God.