Justification

[angellous_evangellous]

There has always been and will always be a battle for the truth (Biblical Christanity) and wisdom from the world (liberal Christianity or Christian humanism). If you leave the Scriptures, the world will pull you into the wisdom of the world. The flesh is contrary to the Spirit, right?

The Spirit is contrary to conservative evangelicalism.

 

[Dunemeister]

The Spirit is contrary to conservative evangelicalism.

A great number of Calvinists would say "amen" to that. Besides, I don't think that conservative evangelicalism is all bad. The Spirit may be contrary to abusive or ignorant elements of that perspective, but certainly upholds and affirms that which is good about it.

But I suppose asking for nuance and civility will get us nowhere in the current thread.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

A great number of Calvinists would say "amen" to that. Besides, I don't think that conservative evangelicalism is all bad. The Spirit may be contrary to abusive or ignorant elements of that perspective, but certainly upholds and affirms that which is good about it.

But I suppose asking for nuance and civility will get us nowhere in the current thread.

I really like the 39 Articles of Faith of the Anglican Church!

 

[sojourner]

I don't think all of Scripture teaches Universalism. Could you please share when you think someone becomes an adopted child of God?

1) God is love.
2) God created us in God's image.
3) God desires the reconciliation of all people.
4) God's second act -- after creation -- was salvation.

I'd say that it's implicit that we, by virtue of the Biblical tenets above, are all children of God, whom God desires to be reconciled.

 

[sojourner]

Thanks for sharing the Bibilical truth which refutes Universalism. Here is another biblical passage that refutes Universalism. I think Christians throughout redemptive history have understood that faith in Jesus Christ is a requirement to be adopted into the faimly of God. The "us" that Paul is speaking about is reserved for believers in Christ only.

Ephesians 1

1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful [1] in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory.

Thanksgiving and Prayer

15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love [6] toward all the saints, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

This isn't a "tit-for-tat" game. It's not about looking up all the judgment passages and all the universalist passages, doing the addition, finding which are the greater sum and then saying, "I'll go with that one." It's about discovering who God is, what God desires, and making choices about which passages of scripture most closely resemble who God is and what God desires. I don't pretend to refute that there are exclusivist themes in the Bible -- but I discount them as evidence of God's mercy, because God is merciful. I discount them as evidence of how God loves, because love is inclusive. I discount them as evidence of what God desires, because a God who loves would not create a person, only to see that person condemned for eternity. I count them as evidence that people have not always had as clear an understanding of who God is, as we do today.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

This isn't a "tit-for-tat" game.

No more than casting pearls to swine.

 

[sojourner]

Well, if you keep discussing the Scriptures, then we will know for sure. The Elect will come to Christ.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

This "Good News" works really well, if you're one of the "elect." But what about the sinner, whom God desires to save? What about the outcast, whom God always seeks to include? What about the unclean, whom Jesus touched? What about the stranger, whom God always seeks to welcome? Where's the "Good News" for them, in the statement that God is going to condemn them for ever, because God has arbitrarily decided that they're not "one of the 'elect'?" No. The Good News, as Jesus preached it, is this: Turn your lives around, because God's imperial rule has come near!" In other words, "the God of salvation has already visited you and showered you with grace. Now live your lives as if that is true."
Your version just makes a complete train-wreck of the gospel message.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Your version just makes a complete train-wreck of the gospel message.

... if only conservative evangelical Christianity were the casuality instead of the drunk engineer who got off easy...

 

[sojourner]

... if only conservative evangelical Christianity were the casuality instead of the drunk engineer who got off easy...

"...A reading from the book of Exxon-Valdez, chapter 1, verses 29-45..."

 

[sojourner]

No more than casting pearls to swine.

Imagine the merchant's horror when he finds that the "pearl of great price" is actually a plastic bauble from the arts-and-crafts department at Wal-Mart...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"...A reading from the book of Exxon-Valdez, chapter 1, verses 29-45..."

Dude, I heard yesterday from a colleague that a certain conservative evangelical seminary is not encouraging the treatment of the mentally ill. Instead, they quote Bible verses at them, much like Fish Hunter. :cover:

 

[sojourner]

Dude, I heard yesterday from a colleague that a certain conservative evangelical seminary is not encouraging the treatment of the mentally ill. Instead, they quote Bible verses at them, much like Fish Hunter. :cover:

No wonder they're mentally ill...
Perhaps they'll find that Bible verses are also good for treating arterial cuts and bad breath...:help:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

No wonder they're mentally ill...
Perhaps they'll find that Bible verses are also good for treating arterial cuts and bad breath...:help:

Yes, I was thinking that it's almost the worst possible case of the blind leading the blind.

 

[sojourner]

Yes, I was thinking that it's almost the worst possible case of the blind leading the blind.

Digging for motes, when they ought to be concerned about logs...

 

[Fish-Hunter]

This "Good News" works really well, if you're one of the "elect." But what about the sinner, whom God desires to save? What about the outcast, whom God always seeks to include? What about the unclean, whom Jesus touched? What about the stranger, whom God always seeks to welcome? Where's the "Good News" for them, in the statement that God is going to condemn them for ever, because God has arbitrarily decided that they're not "one of the 'elect'?" No. The Good News, as Jesus preached it, is this: Turn your lives around, because God's imperial rule has come near!" In other words, "the God of salvation has already visited you and showered you with grace. Now live your lives as if that is true."
Your version just makes a complete train-wreck of the gospel message.

Well, my friend... we can try to create a God in how we think God should be like. Since I believe the Bible is trustworthy, and is the authorative revelation from God... I personally cannot take the liberty to create the God that I think God should be like. Being a cafeteria Christian is not the same as being a Biblical Christian. We all know in part, but we cannot ignore the Scriptures which reveals eternal punishment, wrath, eternal separation, Hell, etc for those who do not believe in the bibilcal Christ. I like every other Christians, have family and friends who have died without faith in Christ. I wish God would universally save all mankind. But reading of the Scriptures does not reveal this reality. Who am I to speak back to God and question His ways?

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Dude, I heard yesterday from a colleague that a certain conservative evangelical seminary is not encouraging the treatment of the mentally ill. Instead, they quote Bible verses at them, much like Fish Hunter. :cover:

I believe medicines such as Lithium and Depakote and other pharmaceuticals are blessings from God to treat mental disorders. All humanity has a variant mental disorder called sin. All humanity has physical disorders which will eventually lead to death. What's the solution to our universal terminal condition?

 

[sojourner]

Well, my friend... we can try to create a God in how we think God should be like. Since I believe the Bible is trustworthy, and is the authorative revelation from God... I personally cannot take the liberty to create the God that I think God should be like. Being a cafeteria Christian is not the same as being a Biblical Christian. We all know in part, but we cannot ignore the Scriptures which reveals eternal punishment, wrath, eternal separation, Hell, etc for those who do not believe in the bibilcal Christ. I like every other Christians, have family and friends who have died without faith in Christ. I wish God would universally save all mankind. But reading of the Scriptures does not reveal this reality. Who am I to speak back to God and question His ways?

Since the Bible is comprised of the authors' experiences of God, and since I have experiences of God that are trustworthy, it stands to reason the our experiences lie at the heart of what informs us about God. If my experience of God does not match up with others' experiences, then some thought has to be put into what is reasonable to believe about God. If it seems reasonable to you that a loving God condemns some of God's children for eternity, then that's your bug-a-boo to deal with. I have no problem dismissing such anger-filled perceptions as false information. In fact, we don't ignore the "eternal punishment" scriptures. We read them like all the rest and assign to them a reasonable value of either truth or not.

If you wish God could universally save everyone, how much more do you think God wishes the same thing? And what makes you think God could not?

 

[sojourner]

What's the solution to our universal terminal condition?

Universal salvation.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Universal salvation.

I agree, but how do we achieve universal salvation for all?

 

[Charity]

I agree, but how do we achieve universal salvation for all?

I will return to this thread, because I would like to hear about universal salvation. I do not really have an understanding about this so I will be learning something new....... Would someone who is a Univeralist please explain the belief to me? If you don't understand something I think it is best to ask......I would really appreciate the chance to learn about this...