• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Just A Question

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
I am not very well versed in the ways of magick. But I have a simple yet complex question. I know alot of shamans and such connect with the spirit world using tools such as rocks, wands, staffs, dead animals, books, crystals, etc... But are their people who can do it without using such things?

And which tools do you find more useful for different practices and such?
 
In ceremonial Magick, doing something like that is called an Empty Handed Gesture. I have seen those who can perform passing fair that way, but the tools always seem to get the better results. I have a long, ramblind discourse on that, feel free to let me know if you want it. So, yes it is possible, but it seems less effective. But sometimes expedience overides ceremony when needs must.
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
Say you were out walking and didn't have any of your tools. And then the spirits called out to you, would it be effective to sit down and deal with the spirits without the tools, or would running back home and getting them be better? This is the problem I run into. The spirits don't seem to care if I have my staff or crystals, or even my sacred spear and pipe. They call on me whenever and wherever I am. Has this ever happened to you?
 
Now, mind you, I have a substantially different view of spirits/egregores than you do, I imagine. But, that being said, wierdness calls when it calls and it has never given a darn if you are ready or not. If something is going on and you are ill-prepared, I would advise dealing with it then and there instead of retreating for ceremonial weapons or foci. In my view that is all they are:foci. They may help you concentrate, and indeed serve a tremendous use, but if you run off for them you will probably return to find the situation beyond retrieval. Hope that helps a little.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Tools are as powerful as you let them be.

most such tools are forms of connecting with the forces they represent. It can be easier to speak with a animal spirit if a piece of the animal in question is present for example.

Mostly they are for the symbology to the user or the observer. Face it, it just looks/works better to perform say, a healing cerimony, if you have a few 'tools of the trade'. Human psycology is a fun thing and good practictioners are also good performers. Its the same idea as to why a placibo works for curing colds.

yes it can be done without it but often it takes much more effort.

wa:do
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
That confirms my ideas fra.morelia, thanks. Have you ever had that happen to you? It seems to happen to me ALOT!!! I guess the spirits want me to be ill prepared so to make me stronger. Who knows.

I feel the same way painted wolf. I should of been born native american. I never use a piece of an animal though, except for feathers. Because I could never take from an animal like that. The feathers I find on the ground in the woods, so I use them alot. Do you have one tool that is your main focus point? Like a tool that helps with every situation?
 
Spirits are inately tricky things. My bogeyman (as discussed in the other topic) is decietful and cunning beyond belief. He is also sadistic in the extreme. I can say this with certainty having performed a controlled possession to get info on him. He wanted very badly to kill my friend, Fra. Yndel.
That is not a digression however. It is an example. If you are prepared, you are more the equal. Many of them seek the advantage same as any man or woman. Thus if your proverbial pants are around your ankles, they have an edge in the dealings.
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
I'll give you what I learned in my apprenticeship. I can't say that I really believe any of this anymore (though I'm still open-minded...), but here it is as I learned it. *cough* This will be a little long...

What I was taught:

1. It is possible to work magick both with tools and without them.

2. However, there are downfalls to both.

3. Though possible and still effective, it is harder to work without tools because it takes a greater mastery over yourself. Thus, unless you are a truly exceptional magician, you will find that magicworking without tools is less effective than with.

4. However, a tool is only as good as the person working with it.

5. In order to work effectively with tools you need two things... two things which, if you master them, will incidentally allow you to also work WITHOUT tools...

6. However, depending on how well you have mastered yourself you STILL may not be "good enough" to be as effective without tools as with.

7. Those two things are Will (which can be triggered by emotion) and visualization.

8. After you have mastered YOURSELF, you can master magic with and without tools.

9. The key to knowing when to NOT use tools is understanding what makes tools generally more effective.

10. There are three reasons why tools are generally more effective: they help you focus your mind, your energy, and they are composed of materials that help with the transfer of energy.

11. I'll illustrate using the example of a wand. Say you want to cast a circle or create some other kind of protective energy barrier. It IS possible to create energy barriers with just your index finger (or, if you are REALLY good at visualization, simply by imagining one rising around you), but if you are still a beginner, a wand helps in three ways:

A) It gets you into the mindset of doing magic and thus make your efforts (and their effects) that much more powerful (I'm convinced that magic, if it really exists, is more than half psychological)...

B) It focuses your energy and helps you channel it (without a tool channeling energy can be tricky... just figuring out where to get energy from and where to send it out of you is hard. Do you draw it from the air and send it out of your fingers? Do you draw it from the ground up through your body and then out of your third eye? Do you just imagine it coming up out of the ground and rising to form a barrier? All potentially work... but some are probably harder than others.) A wand, on the other hand, is "easy"; just decide what you want to do, concentrate on it, visualize, and point.

C) It is composed of certain materials that are conducive to magic work. Take crystals, for example: there are 2 kinds, receptive and projective. Receptive help you to meditate. Projective help amplify and channel energy. Easiest way to tell which one is which (if you are any good at feeling energy) is to hold them in your hands. If you feel like meditating, it is probably receptive. If you can feel its energy sort of tingling along your nerves (or if you point it at your hand and feel the same thing), then it is probably projective. A wand usually has a crystal on the end, so it is no wonder that when you send your own energy and elemental energy through it, the results are probably going to be more powerful than if you simply used your bare hands.

12. However, someone who has really mastered themself (meaning, in this case, really mastered Will and Visualization), can work magic without tools that is probably just as effective, if not more so. This is because the human body is great at channeling energy; you just have to know how to do it. Once you master your Will and Visualization, you can begin learning to channel your own energy until you are as good with your own body as you are with a tool.

13. So, if you are not yet at the level described in #12, when can you ditch the tools and still have strong results? When you are doing small spells, prayer, or meditation (like, if you are sending your well wishes to an ill friend... though a cone of power might work better, which needs to be created in a circle, which would probably be best created with a wand or athame). Also in times of great emotion and times of great need. Those two are often are one and the same. Take Fra.Morelia's bogeyman, for example. If that thing suddenly pops up, Fra will probably be so surprised and shocked that the first thing he (she?) will do IS put a barrier between himself and it (if not outright banish it), without the use of any tools, without any conscious preparation, without moving a muscle. Previous experience and the general adversion that comes from that experience would provide the emotional incentive to do so almost instinctually. (Though too much adversion... like fear, could actually empower the thing... I think Master Vigil already covered that).

So... yeah... that's all I can think of. Sorry if that was a little long!
 
good info, thanks Runt. :mrgreen:
question: do you believe that the materials used are vital beyond we think that they are? i.e. does a crystal really help beyond thinking that it will?
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
You see, that's where I get really skeptical about tools and spellworking... I think if magic really DOES exist, we have all that we need to effectively work with it already WITHIN us; meaning tools and other materials are simply effective because we THINK they are effective (it is really us doing the work; we just THINK the tools help. Kind of like a student thinking a sugar pill is a "smart pill" will do better on a test even though the pill is JUST sugar and his performance is all him... It is the FEELING of something helping... once we realize this, we can start working on getting that same feeling WITHOUT the tools.)
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
I agree runt. It is all within us. That is how taoists view the i ching. Even though they understand what the trigrams mean in and of themselves, the reading of them and the understanding of them comes from within.
 
Indeed, I believe it is the Kia, that 'I' between perception and will that enables magick. The foci are aids. However, you can vest much of yourself in a tool, increasing it's effectiveness for you.
 

Fra. Yndel

New Member
I have a little bit of experience with trying to do magical working with little to no tools available to me. Being in the Marine Corps with all the extremely strict rules I normally find myself completely bereft of all but the most basic magical implements. For instance, we are not allowed to own or burn candles or incense in our rooms. This forces me to adapt whatever ritual I am trying to perform because most times I will not have all the ingredients called for in the ritual. If it does not prove effective I will try a different adaptation. It is all a matter of what you must do at the time and if the desire to continue practising magic is strong enough to do it on the fly when the situation is less than perfect.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Master Vigil said:
I never use a piece of an animal though, except for feathers. Because I could never take from an animal like that. The feathers I find on the ground in the woods, so I use them alot

sorry, should have answered this sooner.... :oops:

Nothing should ever be 'taken' from an animal... If you take you are doing something wrong. Everything I have I was gifted or asked for. The animal gives of itself. I have various bones, feathers, rocks and whatnot that I have gathered over the years... each one is a sacred connection between myself and the powers that be.
for example:
I have a wolf bone/claw neclace that was gifted to me by a very close friend when I started my jurney... The wolf (who was a companion of a local man) was the victem of a senceless act of hate on the part of a neighbor, who felt wolves were too dangerous to live. The vet who tryed to save the wolfs life, when faced with what to do with the poor thing, remembered my friend and with the owners permission offered the body to him.... he sat with the wolf for a while and when he knew the wolf was willing to go with him accepted. A few years later and the wolf chose to go to me... (at least in part)
I have learned a lot from him and hope to continue to learn more or, if he chooses, to pass him on to someone who will learn from him too.

Most animals if you ask nicely and honor thier spirits are ok with being used, its better than being left to rot as road-kill... some say no, and they are honored and left alone... I have had to pass up many opportunities for 'neat stuff' because the animals spirit didn't want any part of it. Some change thier minds after a while, and others just need vacations for a while.

wa:do
 

Runt

Well-Known Member
I never use a piece of an animal though, except for feathers. Because I could never take from an animal like that. The feathers I find on the ground in the woods, so I use them alot
I used to use feathers all the time (I'd literally incorporate them into any spell I was doing and use them on most of my tools--including my athame and chalice!) because I felt a certain connection with birds (particularly hawks) that continues even now that I've stopped being Wiccan. It seemed that whenever I would ask for a feather, within the next two hours I would find one. I even found a peacock feather once (my neighbors up in New Mexico own peacocks, so it is not that weird). But yes, I would never have taken from a living animal, or a dead animal that I didn't ask first. (Like, I never used store bought leather twine...or any leather, for that matter.) Then again, I also have never encountered a dead animal whose body I feel I need for something, so I have never used things from animals (except feathers :p) EVER.
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
Yes indeed, asking is very important. I seem to use more things from plants than animals. Even though the animal spirits would allow me, I never seem to be comfortable using them. I have 4 staffs that I use alot. I do have a spear that is wrapped in leather and rabbit fur, with turkey feathers. I use that alot when I work with wooded spirits. I also have some snake skin that I use sometimes as well.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I once found a turkey tail feather on the sidewalk in the middle of down town. Not a place you would normally find turkies. Its a huge feather as well(almost a foot long), and no one elce noticed it untill I found it at my feet.

Turkey is said to be (ammong the eastern tribes) the 'souls' of brave warriors. Turkies are very smart and difficult to catch birds, in the wild. It makes looking at domestic turkies kinda' saddening.

wa:do
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
Ever since I was little, I would see a group of turkeys and something good would happen that day. They have become lucky for me. And there feathers have become very powerful for me.
 
Top