Judaism and Eden and Eve

[Brickjectivity]

For the Jewish adherents
Was Eve a real person? Was she actually unaware of morality prior to eating the apple? And if so, how could she sin prior to having an understanding of sin?

Just want to let you know that if you post in General debates staff do not actually keep control of who posts in your thread. If you post in Same Faith Debates and specify directly in the title: "Jews Only" as part of your title, then staff will moderate accordingly. Then you won't have to tolerate comments from the peanut gallery like you are doing right now. Rule 10 provides special restrictions on certain areas. Here is a link in case you want to start your thread over again or create a new one:

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Inner Faith Debates Only

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[Tinkerpeach]

Thank you.

I am still learning the rules here so any advice is always welcomed.

My best to you and your loved ones.

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually it is increasing worldwide although it is dwindling in America.

I don’t think God worries about imaginary lines.

Christianity is growing but it is not growing as fast as Islam.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%). Christianity is trailing behind at 1.31%.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

No they don’t which tells you two things.

Some people are not really Christians and some people interpret parts of the Bible that are unclear differently.

That is true.

Now to be a Christian you must believe that Jesus gave His life for us, He is God, and there is no path to Heaven except through Him.

All Christians believe this.

All of that is not true. All Christians believe that Jesus gave His life for us, and there is no path to Heaven except through Him, but not all Christians believe that Jesus is God. Only Trinitarians believe that.

Do majority of Christians believe Jesus is God?

Most Christians believe that Jesus was both human and the Son of God. While there have been theological debate over the nature of Jesus, Trinitarian Christians generally believe that Jesus is God incarnate, God the Son, and "true God and true man" (or both fully divine and fully human).

Religious perspectives on Jesus - Wikipedia

The historicity of Jesus may not be in question for most Americans, but people are much less confident in the divinity of Jesus. Most adults—not quite six in 10—believe Jesus was God (56%), while about one-quarter say he was only a religious or spiritual leader like Mohammed or the Buddha (26%). The remaining one in six say they aren’t sure whether Jesus was divine (18%).

What Do Americans Believe About Jesus? 5 Popular Beliefs - Barna Group

As a side-note, I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God who was both divine and human not only a religious or spiritual leader.

The rest of the Bible is up for debate and that’s where the different religious beliefs come from.

That is true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Still you wouldn’t be here if you weren’t looking for something.

I was looking for something interesting to read.

Would you like me to pray for you, it takes nothing on your part except an open mind.

You do not need to pray that I will believe in Jesus since I already believe in Jesus and everything that He did for humanity.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

I have a close connection to Jesus so I pray to both Jesus and God when I need help.

 

[Spice]

No they don’t which tells you two things.

All Christians believe in the Holy Spirit, but the definition varies.

Some people are not really Christians and some people interpret parts of the Bible that are unclear differently.

That is not up for earthly judgment.

Now to be a Christian you must believe that Jesus gave His life for us, He is God, and there is no path to Heaven except through Him.

All Christians believe this.

Not by a long shot. To be a "Christian" only means to believe Jesus was a "Christ," an anointed messenger of God.
Different "churches" try to put boundaries on what makes a Christian, but if they're loyal to the teachings of Christ, they can't. Christ said: follow me. That's what they did and became known as "Christians."

The rest of the Bible is up for debate and that’s where the different religious beliefs come from.

All of the Bible has been up for debate long before it was a concrete, canonized collection. It us recognized Jewish tradition to debate the Tanaka. It's what Jesus did with the Pharisees while on his mission.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Since this thread has gone off the rails in terms of the OP, I started a thread in the Orthodox Judaism DIR to discuss Adam, Hawwah (Eve), the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, free will, etc. from a purely Jewish Torah based perspective. Anyone interested follow the below link.

Torah based perspectives on Free-Will (Adam and Hawwah)

This thread is inspired by a conversation from another thread concerning Jewish perspectives on Adam and Hawwah (Eve). There is no concept of original sin in Torah based Jewish dicussion about Adam and Hawwah. In the Hebrew text is not about morality, in the way you may understand the concept of...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Colt]

Actually "Judaism" didn't have a problem with Jesus, Anna's and his son-in-law, Caiaphas, the High Priest, had a problem with him. Some say jealousy. Some say conspiracy to sacrifice one to save many according to prophecy. Some, and what I concur, a combination of the other two that was politically based to make a profitable impression on Pilate and Rome. The "council" warranted his arrest.

Thats pure speculation outside of the narrative that we have.

 

[Dimi95]

It's been explained, so...

BTW, "Been there, done that, and bought the T-shirt". Literally.

Ok , i want to keep this in the manner of the discussion.

Jesus recived capital punishment and was crucified by Roman Authority.
The reasons why he was was crucified have political and religious motive which include the highest ranks of religious Jews at that time.Josephus confirms it in his writings.

It has nothing to do with what i think or my personal belief.It has to do with how evidence points out what is highly probable.

What @Spice posted has nothing to do with what i asked , since that is still part of the Tample and is still considered Jewish juradictions.

Money Changers

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[metis]

Jesus recived capital punishment and was crucified by Roman Authority.
The reasons why he was was crucified have political and religious motive which include the highest ranks of religious Jews at that time.

The Sanhedrin had 0 power over the Romans-- period. Also, the Romans had no interest in Jewish Law and customs as long as the Jewish authorities helped keep the peace.

What @Spice posted has nothing to do with what i asked , since that is still part of the Tample and is still considered Jewish juradictions.

The only "jurisdiction" that the Sanhedrin had was only what the Romans allowed. Jesus was viewed by both as an agitator, much like we read what happened in the Temple with his whip and also his claim of having a "kingdom".

 

[Spice]

Thats pure speculation outside of the narrative that we have.

No, it's there. If you read "all" accounts, the Gospels and Acts, sprinkle a bit of human behavior and a hefty dose of history on it, you'll see the "blame it on the Jews" theory was the safest way in the political climate of the Jewish Wars to speak of who instigated the arrest and crucifixion. Most seem to set the unrest of Roman occupation aside when reading the NT scriptures, and it's a major factor in understanding what Jesus was trying to teach, and the actual documentation of his message was written down after the first revolt -- when the politically underhanded were still fighting to come out the winners.

 

[Dimi95]

The Sanhedrin had 0 power over the Romans-- period. Also, the Romans had no interest in Jewish Law and customs as long as the Jewish authorities helped keep the peace.

Yes , yes - i agree with this

The only "jurisdiction" that the Sanhedrin had was only what the Romans allowed.

Yes , i agree , we see that with Herod.
That is why i say that they allowed them to execute justice when the 'crime' is on Tample grounds and has religious purpose.

Jesus was viewed by both as an agitator, much like we read what happened in the Temple with his whip and also his claim of having a "kingdom".

Maybe we disagree here on one little thing.
I think that the Romans did not even bother with Jesus untill the Jews gave him to Pilate.The Jews were probably afraid of what the Romans would do and his preaching was something plus to be added on all of that.

 

[Spice]

Ok , i want to keep this in the manner of the discussion.

Jesus recived capital punishment and was crucified by Roman Authority.
The reasons why he was was crucified have political and religious motive which include the highest ranks of religious Jews at that time.Josephus confirms it in his writings.

It has nothing to do with what i think or my personal belief.It has to do with how evidence points out what is highly probable.

What @Spice posted has nothing to do with what i asked , since that is still part of the Tample and is still considered Jewish juradictions.

Money Changers

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

I don't think his actions with the money-changers was nearly as condemning as his statement that he could tear down the temple and in three days build it back up. That was deemed as blasphemy in:
Jesus before the Sanhedrin
(Matthew 26:57–68; Luke 22:66–71; John 18:19–24)

 

[Dimi95]

I don't think his actions with the money-changers was nearly as condemning as his statement that he could tear down the temple and in three days build it back up. That was deemed as blasphemy in:
Jesus before the Sanhedrin
(Matthew 26:57–68; Luke 22:66–71; John 18:19–24)

I did not go so deep in Scripture as it was said to me that i was using some kind of agenda.

 

[metis]

Maybe we disagree here on one little thing.
I think that the Romans did not even bother with Jesus untill the Jews gave him to Pilate.The Jews were probably afraid of what the Romans would do and his preaching was something plus to be added on all of that.

Very hard to say as the Sanhedrin would be reluctant to turn over a fellow Jew to the Romans. However, if they felt that not turning Jesus over may have brought the Roman's ire against them, that's a logically possibility as well.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So the Jews had the right to punish him

Yes. Although the Romans were the supreme authority, they did allow Jews to govern themselves in many ways -- this why there were things like the Sanhedrin and Temple guard.

Treason to who ?

Treason against Rome.

 

[Colt]

No, it's there. If you read "all" accounts, the Gospels and Acts, sprinkle a bit of human behavior and a hefty dose of history on it, you'll see the "blame it on the Jews" theory was the safest way in the political climate of the Jewish Wars to speak of who instigated the arrest and crucifixion. Most seem to set the unrest of Roman occupation aside when reading the NT scriptures, and it's a major factor in understanding what Jesus was trying to teach, and the actual documentation of his message was written down after the first revolt -- when the politically underhanded were still fighting to come out the winners.

Oh, it’s “the Jews can do no wrong” delusion! It may be a shock to you but the Jews are just human!

 

[Spice]

Oh, it’s “the Jews can do no wrong” delusion! It may be a shock to you but the Jews are just human!

You have pegged me oh so wrong if you think I'm in that camp. I just happen to be realistic and fair to the best of my ability. . .to all. Besides, I don't think you truly got what I was saying.

 

[Colt]

You have pegged me oh so wrong if you think I'm in that camp. I just happen to be realistic and fair to the best of my ability. . .to all. Besides, I don't think you truly got what I was saying.

Notice that Judaism has been consistently rejecting Jesus for 2000 years while it was the Roman’s who adopted him. Ironically, The reasons that they reject Jesus today are still the same as the Jews of the Gospels who rejected him then!

 

[Dimi95]

Treason against Rome.

Do you think that what he did/say threatened the Roman sovereignty?