Judaism and Eden and Eve

[ppp]

For the Jewish adherents
Was Eve a real person? Was she actually unaware of morality prior to eating the apple? And if so, how could she sin prior to having an understanding of sin?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

For the Jewish adherents
Was Eve a real person? Was she actually unaware of morality prior to eating the apple? And if so, how could she sin prior to having an understanding of sin?

The historical Jewish commentaries about Adam and Hhawwah (חוה) (In Hebrew Eve's name is Hawwah). Was she a real person, according to ancient Jewish sources, yes.

Now, from this point is where there are a lot details that can be a bit complex. In order to even address them, there is a Jewish perspective that the Torah is not a history book / scroll in the way that they are written in the western world. The idea is that the Creator, when giving the Torah, was doing so with certain points that Jews are required to analyze, challenge, debate, and learn from and not simply to say that ABC and D happened.

That being said, here a few of the perspectives one finds in Jewish commentary about the Torah on the topic.

1. Adam and Hawwah were given 6 mitzvoth (commands from the Creator) for them and their descendants which include.
   • Not to do Avodah Zara (one way to translate this is idolotry, but it is more complex)
   • Not to curse the name of the Creator. (Also more detailed than than the English word)
   • Not to murder.
   • Not to have certain types relationships with family members, etc.
   • Not to steal / kidnap
   • Establish courts of justice.
2. There is a view that Adam informed Hawwah about what the Creator stated about what was permitted and not permitted but there is a point of view that he added an additional thing, and that was not to touch the fruit.
   • This above point is based on what Hawwah states in the Hebrew text in response to to the snake / snake like creature which she mentions as "don't eat and don't touch." The original statement of the Creator in the text was "don't eat."
   • This further brings up an idea that the snake / snake like creature was able to convince Hawwah by showing that touching the tree didn't cause anything to happen.
   • This view also includes an idea that the snake / snake like creature was actually a manifestation of Adam and Eve's Yetzer Hara / evil inclination which they didn't have internally as a part of their character.
3. One of the concepts that some Jewish texts deal with is that the story in the Torah, along with being historical, is also there to show that we all make decisions in the same manner.
   • One of the points made about the story is that it is dealing with the power of free will and the responsiblity that comes along with it.
   • There are also some views that this story also explains the power of returning to the commands of the Creator, what we call in Hebrew teshuva.

There are a lot of additional points of view from different Jewish commentators on this topic, but this is a good starting point.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

The historical Jewish commentaries about Adam and Hhawwah (חוה) (In Hebrew Eve's name is Hawwah). Was she a real person, according to ancient Jewish sources, yes.

Now, from this point is where there are a lot details that can be a bit complex. In order to even address them, there is a Jewish perspective that the Torah is not a history book / scroll in the way that they are written in the western world. The idea is that the Creator, when giving the Torah, was doing so with certain points that Jews are required to analyze, challenge, debate, and learn from and not simply to say that ABC and D happened.

That being said, here a few of the perspectives one finds in Jewish commentary about the Torah on the topic.

1. Adam and Hawwah were given 6 mitzvoth (commands from the Creator) for them and their descendants which include.
   • Not to do Avodah Zara (one way to translate this is idolotry, but it is more complex)
   • Not to curse the name of the Creator. (Also more detailed than than the English word)
   • Not to murder.
   • Not to have certain types relationships with family members, etc.
   • Not to steal / kidnap
   • Establish courts of justice.
2. There is a view that Adam informed Hawwah about what the Creator stated about what was permitted and not permitted but there is a point of view that he added an additional thing, and that was not to touch the fruit.
   • This above point is based on what Hawwah states in the Hebrew text in response to to the snake / snake like creature which she mentions as "don't eat and don't touch." The original statement of the Creator in the text was "don't eat."
   • This further brings up an idea that the snake / snake like creature was able to convince Hawwah by showing that touching the tree didn't cause anything to happen.
   • This view also includes an idea that the snake / snake like creature was actually a manifestation of Adam and Eve's Yetzer Hara / evil inclination which they didn't have internally as a part of their character.
3. One of the concepts that some Jewish texts deal with is that the story in the Torah, along with being historical, is also there to show that we all make decisions in the same manner.
   • One of the points made about the story is that it is dealing with the power of free will and the responsiblity that comes along with it.
   • There are also some views that this story also explains the power of returning to the commands of the Creator, what we call in Hebrew teshuva.

There are a lot of additional points of view from different Jewish commentators on this topic, but this is a good starting point.

And right there, in a nutshell, is the problem with Judaism.

There is no cohesive belief and it’s extremely convoluted with differing opinions and rituals, certainly not something from God.

He doesn’t make His message a giant riddle that people have to try and figure out.

 

[Kathryn]

Also, just because it bugs me, it never mentions the fruit by name, so we have no idea whether or not it was an apple.

 

[ppp]

And right there, in a nutshell, is the problem with Judaism.

There is no cohesive belief and it’s extremely convoluted with differing opinions and rituals, certainly not something from God.

He doesn’t make His message a giant riddle that people have to try and figure out.

Christianity is just as much of a convoluted hodgepodge of opinions and interpretations. More so.

 

[ppp]

Also, just because it bugs me, it never mentions the fruit by name, so we have no idea whether or not it was an apple.

Does it matter?

 

[Kathryn]

Does it matter?

It matters to me.

 

[ppp]

It matters to me.

Does it matter to you on any practical basis? Or is this just an aesthetic thing?

 

[Kathryn]

Does it matter to you on any practical basis? Or is this just an aesthetic thing?

I like to accurately look at scripture. Anyway, I am off to bed.

 

[ppp]

I like to accurately look at scripture. Anyway, I am off to bed.

lol. sleep tight.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And right there, in a nutshell, is the problem with Judaism.

There is no cohesive belief and it’s extremely convoluted with differing opinions and rituals, certainly not something from God.

He doesn’t make His message a giant riddle that people have to try and figure out.

The reality is that we Jews have no command from the Creator to have a cohesive beleif about many things. We are actually required to draw conclusions about how to manage ourselves in various areas, and only in certain areas are there requirements for us to be on the same page.

It is what makes our path different from what the rest of the world is required, or feels they are required, to do. BTW, historically speaking the word Yahaduth, what you call Judaism, doesn't mean a religion. It historically describes how we Jews culturally do the Torah that the Creator gave us.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Also, just because it bugs me, it never mentions the fruit by name, so we have no idea whether or not it was an apple.

You also have to take into that the text was originally written in Hebrew. Given that translations are forms of "interpretation" or "commentary" anyone reading a translation is reading a person's particular commentary or interpretation of what they want to respresent about the original Hebrew.

Also, given that the original Hebrew text has no vowels or punciation include literally the entire text requires an oral set of information to even know how to pronounce and read it. Here is an example comparison between a Hebrew Torah scroll w/o vowels and punciation and a Hebrew text of the Torah with the vowels and punciation.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Does it matter?

From what I have seen in the Christian world there is a lot more consideration on what the fruit itself. I can only assume this is because the vast majoirity of Christians are reading it a) in translations with particular interpretation and b) within the context of what the new tesatment states about "sin."

Jews on the otherhand, are often reading the text in Hebrew with a) thousands of years of Hebrew and Aramaic discussion about how the Torah was composed and why, b) thousands of years of Hebrew / Aramaic analysis of the language of the text, in Hebrew, and c) an Oral Torah how to draw conclusions about what can be derived from the text for practical Jewish life.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

The reality is that we Jews have no command from the Creator to have a cohesive beleif about many things. We are actually required to draw conclusions about how to manage ourselves in various areas, and only in certain areas are there requirements for us to be on the same page.

It is what makes our path different from what the rest of the world is required, or feels they are required, to do. BTW, historicall speaking the word Yahaduth, what you call Judaism, doesn't mean a religion. It historically describes how we Jews culturally do the Torah that the Creator gave us.

How convenient that you can practice any type of behavior and have God support it.

Heck if I were to make a religion that would be exactly how I would do it.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

Christianity is just as much of a convoluted hodgepodge of opinions and interpretations. More so.

Yes but the Bible is crystal clear so it’s very easy to see who’s opinions aren’t following it

 

[Ehav4Ever]

How convenient that you can practice any type of behavior and have God support it.

Heck if I were to make a religion that would be exactly how I would do it.

It is very convenient that Jews were given permission to form our behavior around the Torah that the Creator gave us, as it was given at Mount Sinai. Given that the word religion does not appear anywhere in the Hebrew text of the Torah and given that the Creator gave the Torah to the Jewish nation for a very specific group of reasons it would stand to reason that the convience of living the Torah would be included (written and oral Torah) in the process of keeping the Torah.

 

[ppp]

From what I have seen in the Christian world there is a lot more consideration on what the fruit itself. I can only assume this is because the vast majoirity of Christians are reading it a) in translations with particular interpretation and b) within the context of what the new tesatment states about "sin."

Jews on the otherhand, are often reading the text in Hebrew with a) thousands of years of Hebrew and Aramaic discussion about how the Torah was composed and why, b) thousands of years of Hebrew / Aramaic analysis of the language of the text, in Hebrew, and c) an Oral Torah how to draw conclusions about what can be derived from the text for practical Jewish life.

I think that is probably true. Or close enough. But how does that make it matter whether or not the fruit was originally an apple, or a citron, or a pomegranate, etc?

 

[ppp]

Yes but the Bible is crystal clear so it’s very easy to see who’s opinions aren’t following it

So say the rest of the aforementioned hodgepodge.

 

[Kathryn]

lol. sleep tight.

I did, thank you!

 

[Spice]

And right there, in a nutshell, is the problem with Judaism.

There is no cohesive belief and it’s extremely convoluted with differing opinions and rituals, certainly not something from God.

He doesn’t make His message a giant riddle that people have to try and figure out.

And I find that is the beauty of Judaism -- God challenges us to discover His will and in the process we help each other with kindness and love, growing closer to Him as we learn the consequences of our choices.

Jesus was a Jew and he debated with the Pharisees constantly. They didn't consider him a heretic. Christians consider him a heretical Jew, but he was not. He was a devout Jew.