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John the baptist

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Ori, Jun 2, 2005.

  1. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Salaam,
    There are hadith that say he is vegetarian also. and the nazarite essenes which Jesus was part of also taught a vegetarian diet, and James was a vegetarian according to the old texts(these are the people to which Paul is referring when he says those who eat only herbs are weak). Simply because the church rejects a book does not make it false. It just means it does not follow the pauline teachings, which would be why the council of Nicea would reject it back in the day. Even if the church today knew for a fact it was true, they would not accept it. that would mean that the council of Nicea was not divine and then they would have to question other decisions the council made. it would be a terrible chain reaction for christianity. It took them many many centuries just to admit Mary was not a whore(my old church still taught she was just a whore about 10 years ago, the last time i went), when they knew it all along but perpetuated the myth.
    It makes perfect sense that Jesus would be vegetarian if he taught peace and compassion rather than needless killing. If the law was abolished with Jesus as paul tells us, then would we not revert the the pre law era? in which case we would not be allowed to eat meat at all?
     
  2. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Not eating meat would be pre-flood era.
     
  3. reyjamiei

    reyjamiei Member

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    Paul says that Jesus abolished the law but Jesus says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17
     
  4. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    which is also in the pre-law era.
     
  5. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    I agree 100%. Jesus did not abolish it at all, but upheld the law as we see in his teachings and his practices.
     
  6. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    You're right. That isn't what makes it false. What makes it false is the fact that it goes against examples of Jesus' behavior. Like eating the flesh of animals in the passages I provided previously. What do you have to say about them? I would like to hear your opinion.

    This isn't about Paul's teachings. It is about Jesus' behavior. We know that He was not a vegetarian because He ate fish on more than one occasion, and a lamb at the passover feast (the last supper).


    Needless killing? I wouldn't say that. What you are suggesting simply isn't the case. There are those who kill needlessly, I admit. And further, I completely disagree with it. I think it is cruel and, as you say, needless. But killing an animal to eat it's flesh is does not in any way go against Jesus' teachings, and is by no means needlesss.

    Even if that were the case, we would still be able to eat meat. God gave Noah permission to eat of the animlas after the flood, and as far as I know, no restrictions were placed upon that until the law. Anyway, The problem is that Jesus set up a new covenant; a new "law". The old one served its purpose and now it isn't needed anymore because of Jesus' sacrifice. So to answer your question in short: no.
     
  7. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    You are using church doctrines here to say the book is false. i would say that the church doctrines are much more likely to have been modified to fit their purposes and pauline doctrines. when Paul states that vegetarians are weak, they can't very well go out and say that Jesus, James, and John were vegetarians. But being vegetarian is part of the nazarite oath to get one closer to God, i would not call that weak as paul does.

    again, this is from biased church doctrines and is not necessarily all true. I would say he did not eat fish or lamb because he was compassionate towards animals, he did not kill them unnecessarily, he had plenty of herbs and fruit. I know that Jesus was a vegetarian.

    There are some who live in areas where there is not enough vegetation to sustain a group of people, i can understand them eating flesh for survival. Jesus was not one of those people and therefore for him to eat flesh would be needless killing.
    I do not believe Jesus abolished the law anyway, but before the law was also Adam and his diet, the original diet of humans and the healthiest:
    "I give you all plants that bear seed everywhere on Earth, and every tree bearing fruit which yields seed: they shall be yours for food. All green plants I give for food to the wild animals, to all the birds of heaven, and to all reptiles on Earth, every living creature, it shall be theirs for food." Genesis 1:29-30

    here are a few hadith about Jesus:
    [font=Arial, helvetica, verdana]"Jesus used to tell his followers, 'Take places of worship to be your homes, house to be stopping places. Eat from the plants of the wilderness and escape from this world in Peace.' Sharik said, 'I mentioned this to Sulayman, who added, 'and drink pure water.'"[/font]
    [font=Arial, helvetica, verdana]Notes: Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak )d. 181/797), al-Zuhd, p. 198 (no. 563). Cf. Ibn Abd Rabbihi, al-`Iqd, 3:143; Ibn Asakir, Sirat, p. 138, no. 128 (Asin, p. 541, no. 111; Mansur, no 9; Robson, p. 73).[/font]​
    [font=Arial, helvetica, verdana]"Jesus used to say, 'Truly i say to you, to eat wheat bred, to drink pure water, and to sleep upon dunghills with the dogs more than suffices him who wishes to inherit paradise."[/font]
    [font=Arial, helvetica, verdana]Notes: Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 241/855), al-Zuhd, p. 98 (no. 326). Ibn Qutbayba, Uyun al-Akhbar, 2:363; Ibn Abi al-Dunya, Kitab Dhamm al- Dunya, in Mawsu'at Rasa'il, 2:275, excerpt no. 138: Ikhwan al-Safa', Rasa'il Ikhwan al-Safa', 3:34; and al-Ghazali, Ihya', 4:180 (Asin, p. 400, no. 70; Mansur, no. 152; Robson, p. 70 [shorter version]).[/font]​
    [font=Arial, helvetica, verdana]"Jesus was a constant traveler in the land, never abiding in a house or a village. His clothing consisted of a cloak made of coarse hair or camel stub and two hairless shirts... In his hand he carried a club. Whenever night fell, his lamp was the moonlight, his shade the blackness of night, his bed the earth, his pillow a stone, his food the plants of the fields. At times, he spent whole days and nights without food. In times of distress he was happy, and in times of ease he was sad."[/font]
    [font=Arial, helvetica, verdana]Notes: Abu Rifa'a al-Fasawi (d. 289/902), Kitab Bad' al-Khalq, p. 333. Cf. Ibn `Asakir, Sirat, p. 133, no. 120.[/font]​
    [font=Arial, helvetica, verdana]"Christ said, "Flesh eating flesh? How offensive an act!"[/font]
    [font=Arial, helvetica, verdana]Notes: Al-Raghib al-Isfahani (early fifth/early eleventh century), Mahadarat al-Udaba', 1:610.[/font]​
    [font=Arial, helvetica, verdana]"If you wish, you may repeat what the Possessor of the Word and the Spirit, Jesus the son of Mary, used to say: 'Hunger is my seasoning, fear [of Allah] is my garment, wool is my clothing, the light of the dawn is my heat in winter, the moon is my lantern, my legs are my beast of burden, and the produce of the earth is my food and fruit. I retire for the night with nothing to my name and awake in the morning with nothing to my name. And there is no one on earth richer than me."[/font]
    [font=Arial, helvetica, verdana]Notes: Abu Nu`aym al-Isbahani (d. 430/1038), Hilyat al-Awliya', 6:314 (Asin, pp. 374-375, no. 44; Mansur, no. 80; Robson, pp. 67-68.[/font]​
     
  8. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    I am using the scriptures, not doctrine. There is no church doctrine that teaches us that Jesus ate the flesh of animals. We have the example right there in the book of Luke. Luke 24:42-43. No doctrine, no tradition, just text.

    One reason that the books were chosen to be a part of the canon is that they had a consistent message. The Gospel of the Holy Twelve contradicts other accounts of Jesus' actions and teachings. After reading it, I personally gather a sense of an agenda being pushed on the reader.

    The Bible says otherwise. He was compassionate, but I'm sorry, the text speaks for itself. He ate fish more than once in His life, and the text in the Gsospel of the Holy Twelve contradicts that. Additionally, Jewish tradition tells us that ALL passover meals of Jesus' time included a course of lamb. That isn't "corrupt church doctrine", It's history my friend.
     
  9. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    I'm sorry but the subject seems sily to debate. Jesus could be an eater of fruits and grains and nuts and occasionaly have eaten meats. Perhaps he is a vegetarian with his own trendy dietary practice.
     
  10. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    I meant the gospels, i mistyped that, sorry

    The reason the books were chosen is because they fit the pauline doctrine and the governing authorities could use that to more easily control the masses.
    this same Jewish tradition also says audulterers are to be stoned, does that mean the bible lies when Jesus did not have the adulterer stoned? or did Jesus break this "tradition"? Christians follow very few if any Jewish traditions. Why would you pick that one to apply to Jesus who was a christian according to popular christian belief?
    The passover meals of James the brother of Jesus and the Jerusalem church would most likely not have included lamb since James was definitely a vegetarian and he taught a vegetarian diet
     
  11. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Most debate topics seem silly to most people :) I do agree with you and we are both beating our heads against the wall here :banghead3 . that happens sometimes
     
  12. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, because they eat them there to this day. They boil them in salt water and eat them dipped in honey. They taste pretty good, too.
     
  13. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    I would suggest you read into Exodus 12:3-3. Maybe James didn't eat meat but to say the Jerusalem church didn't include a lamb at the passover meal seems like ignorance. Biblically, a practical and essential preparation for the Passover meal was the selection of a lamb. However, Jesus Christ died as Israel's last and true Passover lamb. Because he was the ultimate lamb, there is no need for any more passover sacrifices or meals because Christ was the final one. This is why the meal is replaced with holy communion, the memorial of Jesus Christ's death. Whereas Passover memorialized the children of Israel's deliverance from the bondage of Egypt, holy communion memorializes the believers' deliverance from the bondage of sin and its consequences. It is a memorial that, when done right, brings immediate benefits.
     
  14. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps what Jesus said about what goes in a man is not what defiles him but what comes out. John the Baptist I feel did eat locusts...but it really doesn't matter...he was a good man who looked at life through his soul and beliefs in God. Remarkable that not many men after him can do that.:)
     
  15. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    If you continue to read that passage in Matthew, you will see that Jesus is referring to eating with unwashed hands not defiling a person, not eat whatever you want as many people like to read it.
     
  16. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Peace,
    Since James was the head of the Jerusalem church until he was murdered by Ananeus just before the destruction of the temple, i would say they probably listened to him. He and his followers in the Jerusalem Church were the ones Paul refers to as "those zealous for the law". The best benefit comes from not eating meat or consuming alcohol, from being a Nazarite, not from bloodshed of an innocent creature.
     
  17. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    they eat carobs to this day as well. i've never had a locust, but i think i would prefer carobs. :)
     
  18. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    It seems the book of the holy twelve differs from what I've read saying that Christ is the head of the church but I'm wondering if perhaps your book was written between the time of the ascension and the day of pentacost. Also do you have any more info about James being a head of the "Jerusalem Church"? You must know that the "early" church developed a pattern for its growth in various localities. Probably small supervised meetings behind closed doors in private homes with a head elder, maybe James. His group would then keep up personal revisits and written communications with other "like" groups. The bible teaches that twelve of these "households of Jerusalem" were later inspired and learned to walk on the Word of God and share it with others under Paul's ministry.
     
  19. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    If you read some of the writings of Robert Eisenman he explains it historically using Josephus, the Bible, and the Dead Sea Scrolls. James is referred to a lot in the works of Josephus. James was appointed by Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas as well (to take over after Jesus was gone). I am aware of Paul's teachings and i have read enough history to reject Paul in favor of the teachings of Jesus, John the Baptist, and other prophets. James was head of the church and called "the righteous teacher" and Paul is "the Liar" who was friends with Ananeus "the wicked priest".
     
  20. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi John, I have Jesus of Nazareth on tape and I have watched it over and over and over, I think it is a fantastic movie, I wonder if Robert Powel who played Jesus was Either already a Christain or was converted after playing Jesus ?...Just a thought, but Yeh Great Movie... :D
     
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