John 14:12

[capumetu]

This is a false teaching, I believe.

Which apostles are you talking about? The twelve apostles? The apostle Paul? [Where is the scriptural evidence?]

Why then does Paul, who is chosen as the apostle to the Gentiles, say 'And he [the Lord] gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:' ?[Ephesians 4:11,12, and read on]

If miracles were to be done away with after the death of the apostles, then it's clear that miracles haven't been done away with because apostles still exist!

Apostles no longer exist. Paul pointed out that Christians have different talents. At some point gifts were or will be done away with 1 Cor 13:8-10. We teach that they ceased with the death of the apostles.

What convinces me? The apostles could cure any infirmity, that cannot be done today.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Apostles no longer exist. Paul pointed out that Christians have different talents. At some point gifts were or will be done away with 1 Cor 13:8-10. We teach that they ceased with the death of the apostles.

What convinces me? The apostles could cure any infirmity, that cannot be done today.

Here is the scripture that convinces you that the Holy Spirit is not active now.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10. 'Charity never faileth; but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.'

[Now, read on..]
'When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.'

In verse 12, the final verse above, you can see that prophecies, tongues and knowledge will cease eventually. But when? In verse 12, it tells us that these things only cease when the 'perfect is come'. They only cease when we come 'face to face' and we are 'known'.

So, tell me, who is the 'perfect to come'? Who are we to confront 'face to face'? Who is it that will tell us we are 'known'?

There can be no doubt that these are references to the 'Son of Man', the perfect man. 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 is, therefore, without question, referring to the coming Lord. This means that prophecies, tongues and knowledge... in fact, all the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, will continue to be active in the Church until the day of the Lord's return.

You cannot base belief in healing and miracles on your personal experience alone. There are many church denominations that simply do not recognise that a person must be born again of the Holy Spirit, and walk by grace. IMO, until you know Holy Spirit baptism you are unlikely to see healings and miracles!

 

[Left Coast]

The passage in Matthew concerns the raising of saints from the graves after Jesus' resurrection, and it says that they 'appeared unto many' in Jerusalem. There is no indication that these people remained alive, or reintegrated into society. More likely, these appearances were to validate the resurrection of Christ.

So wait, you're telling me these dead people were raised from their graves, appeared to a bunch of people, and then...vanished? Melted? Instantly died again? You don't think that would be disconcerting? I can tell you, I would find it quite disconcerting.

The thing is, you're making excuses. We're talking about an all-powerful being here. There is no logistic challenge he could not overcome. So if you believe your god does actual miracles, then why don't we ever see any?

The spiritual body of Christ, the Church, did not come into being until the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples. This is the event that marks the beginning of the Church Age in which we now live. The teaching of the apostles, especially Paul, on the subject of healing and miracles, is therefore highly relevant to the Church. One can also see in the ministries of Peter and Paul that miracles and healing abounded. For example, at Troas, Paul raised a young man, Eutychus, from the dead after he fell from a third floor open window [Acts 20:9,10].

I see no reason to trust what the Gospels or Acts claim, so again, if you want to present convincing evidence of miracles, you're going to have to do better than that.

Are you still waiting for a call? The last call will, according to scripture, be the call of the trumpet.
'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.' [1 Corinthians 15:52]

Again, this is just a bald claim in a book. What is the evidence that this will actually happen?

 

[Regiomontanus]

You don't? You don't think Jesus literally did those miracles? That would be fascinating.

Not all of them, no. And I am hardly the only/first Christian to think so

 

[Left Coast]

Not all of them, no. And I am hardly the only/first Christian to think so

Lots of mainline/liberal Christians would agree with you, no doubt, but I took you as a more traditional Catholic sort. Nevermind!

 

[Regiomontanus]

Lots of mainline/liberal Christians would agree with you, no doubt, but I took you as a more traditional Catholic sort. Nevermind!

Ahh labels

Liberal in some ways, traditional in others. And a literal interpretation of many of the stories in the Bible is more of a 19th century distortion than 'traditional', I think. Read Origen, for example.

 

[Left Coast]

Ahh labels

Liberal in some ways, traditional in others. And a literal interpretation of many of the stories in the Bible is more of a 19th century distortion than 'traditional', I think. Read Origen, for example.

I don't think Origen would have argued that Christ never actually performed any miracles...?

 

[Regiomontanus]

I don't think Origen would have argued that Christ never actually performed any miracles...?

I didn't say that I thought he performed no miracles. Sorry for the confusion. And the only thing that matters, I think, is the Resurrection. All else is details and interpretation

 

[capumetu]

Here is the scripture that convinces you that the Holy Spirit is not active now.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10. 'Charity never faileth; but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.'

[Now, read on..]
'When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.'

In verse 12, the final verse above, you can see that prophecies, tongues and knowledge will cease eventually. But when? In verse 12, it tells us that these things only cease when the 'perfect is come'. They only cease when we come 'face to face' and we are 'known'.

So, tell me, who is the 'perfect to come'? Who are we to confront 'face to face'? Who is it that will tell us we are 'known'?

There can be no doubt that these are references to the 'Son of Man', the perfect man. 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 is, therefore, without question, referring to the coming Lord. This means that prophecies, tongues and knowledge... in fact, all the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, will continue to be active in the Church until the day of the Lord's return.

You cannot base belief in healing and miracles on your personal experience alone. There are many church denominations that simply do not recognise that a person must be born again of the Holy Spirit, and walk by grace. IMO, until you know Holy Spirit baptism you are unlikely to see healings and miracles!

We do not believe that time is here yet Song. In our time period, there are no accurate prophets, there are no healers, speaking in tongues is understood. We simply believe the gifts were done away with with the death of the apostles. Love was the primary topic of 1 Cor 13, that is what Paul was saying, those things would be replaced by the love of the brotherhood to identify Jehovah's people.

We believe the perfect or complete to come is not Jesus, but the full understanding, which of course will correspond to his second return, and then some very likely. We will not have absolute truth until we are brought to perfection just prior to the releasing of satan.

 

[Redemptionsong]

We do not believe that time is here yet Song. In our time period, there are no accurate prophets, there are no healers, speaking in tongues is understood. We simply believe the gifts were done away with with the death of the apostles. Love was the primary topic of 1 Cor 13, that is what Paul was saying, those things would be replaced by the love of the brotherhood to identify Jehovah's people.

We believe the perfect or complete to come is not Jesus, but the full understanding, which of course will correspond to his second return, and then some very likely. We will not have absolute truth until we are brought to perfection just prior to the releasing of satan.

This appears to be an acknowledgment that the perfect has not yet come, in which case the healings and miracles are still relevant.

Furthermore, if one is to say that apostleship no longer exists, why does one not also apply this to other ministries? In 1 Corinthians 12:28 it says, 'And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.'

This is, of course, not about the place of love, which Paul placed first in order of priority. Love being placed first does not relegate faith and hope to obscurity, it simple places love first, such that all healing and powers are operated in a genuine Spirit of love.

 

[capumetu]

This appears to be an acknowledgment that the perfect has not yet come, in which case the healings and miracles are still relevant.

Furthermore, if one is to say that apostleship no longer exists, why does one not also apply this to other ministries? In 1 Corinthians 12:28 it says, 'And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.'

This is, of course, not about the place of love, which Paul placed first in order of priority. Love being placed first does not relegate faith and hope to obscurity, it simple places love first, such that all healing and powers are operated in a genuine Spirit of love.

The only thing is maam, no one can heal today. The only healings that can be done is those caused by demon possession. The gift of healing was manifest in the ability to cure diseases completely, regardless of the nature of the affliction. (Ac 5:15, 16; 9:33, 34; 28:8, 9)