Jesus's Death. Was That Unnecessary?

[paarsurrey]

Forgiveness has nothing to do with “compensation,” “sacrifice,” or “cost.” Dawkins is correct here. The Anglican bishop on stage was wrong when he said that forgiveness is costly.

The English word forgive is a compound word. The “for” part comes from the word that means the “fore” part of a boat. When fishermen would be out in the bay fishing, they placed one man in the “fore” of the boat, to watch for other boats. When one came too near, he would call “fore,” and then the men could push the oncoming boat away from them. The energy of the oncoming boat was pushed back toward that boat, and thus not absorbed by the first boat.

When we “for-give” someone, we give the negativity (inherent in the wrongdoing) back to that person, rather than absorbing it ourselves. God takes the negativity of our sinful actions and gives that energy back to us.

Why? Because when we do wrong, it costs us some of our life-energy. We push that energy toward others in hurtful acts. That’s energy we need to be healthy. when God forgives, and pushes that energy back to us, God is returning life-giving energy to us. If there is a “cost” to forgiveness, it’s in our being able to take back the energy we put out there to begin with. We have to open ourselves to receive it.

No blood atonement was necessary. No sacrifice is needed. Jesus forgave them. He pushed their energy back to them. An ultimate act of love is the paradigm for forgiveness, not an “ultimate sacrifice.”

sojourner, " No blood atonement was necessary. No sacrifice is needed."

I agree with one here, please. Right, please?

Regards

 

[ppp]

that's hypothetical.
Difficult to answer.

What would I have done when I was a German 1933 (post elections in March)? Would I have tried to stop Hitler? No. I would have fled to another country.
He was elected into power. They wanted him.

Same with Israel back then, I think. It seems to me, everybody was just fine with the leaders who almost always killed the prophets that God sent them.

For me, democracy means letting the other side prevail if they really want a dictator.

I'm not asking about what other people would want. I am asking, Would you save Jesus from Crucifixion if you could?

 

[paarsurrey]

I'm not asking about what other people would want. I am asking, Would you save Jesus from Crucifixion if you could?

If the Christianity people follow the truthful teachings of Jesus than following Pauline teachings , then they don't need Jesus to die on the Cross. And it is a happy tiding to them all, that their beloved Jesus did not die on the Cross actually, as I understand, please. Right friends, please?

Regards

 

[ppp]

If the Christianity people follow the truthful teachings of Jesus than following Pauline teachings , then they don't need Jesus to die on the Cross. And it is a happy tiding to them all, that their beloved Jesus did not die on the Cross actually, as I understand, please. Right friends, please?

Regards

There would be no Christianity without Paul.

 

[paarsurrey]

There would be no Christianity without Paul.

The Christianity people are to follow Jesus- the Christ, not Paul who was never a Christ, I understand. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[ppp]

The Christianity people are supposed to follow Jesus- the Christ, not Paul who was never a Christ, I understand. Right friend, please?

Regards

Not my problem. I am talking about what is, not what you think is "supposed" to be.

 

[paarsurrey]

Paarsurrey wrote:
The Christianity people are to follow Jesus- the Christ, not Paul who was never a Christ, I understand. Right friend, please?

Not my problem. I am talking about what is, not what you think is "supposed" to be.

Please note a little change in my post, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[ppp]

Paarsurrey wrote:
The Christianity people are to follow Jesus- the Christ, not Paul who was never a Christ, I understand. Right friend, please?


Please note a little change in my post, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

Removing the word 'supposed' doesn't change the conveyed meaning of that sentence.

 

[thomas t]

This was exactly what should have happened as per the clues very much in the NT Bible itself, leaving others aside, I understand. Right, please?

no.I don't think so.
But we could do it this way: try to find anything that backs your statement up coming from the Bible. I mean Bible quotes and then we can talk about this.
Regards,
Thomas

 

[thomas t]

The English word forgive is a compound word. The “for” part comes from the word that means the “fore” part of a boat.

Actually, the NT was written in Greek.
Before, it was in Aramaic perhaps.

But never English as first Bible language.
As beautiful as this language is, though.

Forgiveness has nothing to do with “compensation,” “sacrifice,” or “cost.”

ok.
Yet there was a price that needed to be paid.
1 Corinthians 6:20.
So, some bill was still there that needed to be paid. Otherwise this Bible verse just does not make any sense whatsoever.

Even if liberal Christians say you can skip Bible verses, I hold you can't.
I'm not conservative either, but I say you should take Bible verses seriously.

No sacrifice is needed.

the bill was still open, see above.
But maybe you and @cOLTER are right and, in this case, there was no atonement needed.
But there still was an open bill from somewhere.

Insteresting thoughts you share on energy. Thank you for sharing.

 

[thomas t]

I'm not asking about what other people would want. I am asking, Would you save Jesus from Crucifixion if you could?

Let's hypothetically consider I was there asking Jesus if he wanted my help. If Jesus would tell me that he wishes that Gods will shall be done... I would ask God what his will is. If I won't get an answer I wouldn't interfere there.

 

[Colt]

God the Father bestows lavish proportions of his preexistent Mercyupon each child sufficient to overcome our inherent imperfections and potential missteps in time.

 

[capumetu]

In this recent thread, people discussed why we need Jesus as savior.
This thread is about how his death was necessary according to the Bible.

According to Jewish tradition, there needs to be a sacrifice in order that the sins of mankind should be absolved.
Nevertheless, Richard Dawkins calls Jesus's death, a human sacrifice, "the most disgusting idea" he has ever heard.


(see Minute 3:19 of this video

However, Jesus's death was necessary for at least two reasons.
Here is the second one, as I see it: there needs to be a real compensation for all the damage that man does to His creation. Bible talks about it in Matthew 20:28.
Man damages his creation but can't pay.
So, Jesus offers his life for anyone who believes. On judgement day, believers can step before God and "pay" with this, as if it was a token given to believers only. And God accepts.

Richard Dawkins forgets this second aspect of Jesus's death.

Since God accepts Jesus's death as a real compensation, this death must have been of value for God.

In my opinion, this value consists of but is not limited to:

1) demonstrating what would probably happen if God showed up again without using his extra powers...
2) presenting an example of what would happen/ of what happens if someone behaves normally. This serves as education for mankind. And God loves mankind.
3) having had the opportunity to show up on earth at all (without using extra -powers). If God wanted to heal some sick and give a lesson on ethics, then death is what people want him to be subjected to. This death comes with the territory of God's appearance on earth and Jesus was the one willing to undergo it - including the torture.
I mean if God does not want to use extra powers every single time and present himself as truely human.

So this was of true value for God. Please also consider all the working hours that Jesus spent on earth.
Jesus is kind enough that anyone believing in him may claim this "money" as a token for compensation on judgement day, this is at least my interpretation of what I read in the Bible.

Thomas

Although it is difficult for us to understand, Jehovah can not change, nor His perfect laws. Adam's sin lost life for humans, without an equal sacrifice being given, then no one could have everlasting life. The only way humans could be granted everlasting life was to have a corresponding ransom to be offered. Jesus' death opened the way for humans to live eternally.

 

[Colt]

Although it is difficult for us to understand, Jehovah can not change, nor His perfect laws. Adam's sin lost life for humans, without an equal sacrifice being given, then no one could have everlasting life. The only way humans could be granted everlasting life was to have a corresponding ransom to be offered. Jesus' death opened the way for humans to live eternally.

"The erroneous supposition that the righteousness of God was irreconcilable with the selfless love of the heavenly Father, presupposed absence of unity in the nature of Deity and led directly to the elaboration of the atonement doctrine, which is a philosophic assault upon both the unity and the free-willness of God."

The atonement theory by default says that God cannot forgive, that the Father is Not Love, is Not merciful, and cannot of his own forgive sin unless someone almost equal to himself to accept the consequence on everyone's behalf which is a crass injustice.

 

[paarsurrey]

no.I don't think so.
But we could do it this way: try to find anything that backs your statement up coming from the Bible. I mean Bible quotes and then we can talk about this.
Regards,
Thomas

Sign of Jonah:
Jonah is the central character in the Book of Jonah, in which God commands him to go to the city of Nineveh to prophesy against it "for their great wickedness is come up before me,"[4] but Jonah instead attempts to flee from "the presence of the Lord" by going to Jaffa and sailing to Tarshish.[5] A huge storm arises and the sailors, realizing that it is no ordinary storm, cast lots and discover that Jonah is to blame.[6] Jonah admits this and states that if he is thrown overboard, the storm will cease.[7] The sailors refuse to do this and continue rowing, but all their efforts fail and they are eventually forced to throw Jonah overboard.[8] As a result, the storm calms and the sailors then offer sacrifices to God.[9] Jonah is:

1. miraculously saved by being swallowed by a large fish,
2. in whose belly he spends three days and three nights.[10]
3. While in the great fish, Jonah prays to God in his affliction and commits to thanksgiving and to paying what he has vowed.[11]
4. God then commands the fish to vomit Jonah out.[12]

Book of Jonah - Wikipedia
During all the four phases Jonah was remained alive and did not die for a moment even, please. Right friend, please?

Jesus is narrated to have said as per sinful Mathew:

38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”
39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 12:38-40 - New International Version

So, here is a strong clue in the Bible that Jesus had not to die and did not die on the Cross for a moment even, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[thomas t]

lavish proportions of his preexistent Mercy [....]

I for one feel sorry for the creator.
Look at this (picture by WWF):


To my knowledge, sometimes birds eat plastics and die starving despite a full stomach.

"The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.” Revelation 11:18

Sign of Jonah:
Jonah is the central character in the Book of Jonah, in which God commands him to go to the city of Nineveh to prophesy against it "for their great wickedness is come up before me,"[4] but Jonah instead attempts to flee from "the presence of the Lord" by going to Jaffa and sailing to Tarshish.[5] A huge storm arises and the sailors, realizing that it is no ordinary storm, cast lots and discover that Jonah is to blame.[6] Jonah admits this and states that if he is thrown overboard, the storm will cease.[7] The sailors refuse to do this and continue rowing, but all their efforts fail and they are eventually forced to throw Jonah overboard.[8] As a result, the storm calms and the sailors then offer sacrifices to God.[9] Jonah is:

1. miraculously saved by being swallowed by a large fish,
2. in whose belly he spends three days and three nights.[10]
3. While in the great fish, Jonah prays to God in his affliction and commits to thanksgiving and to paying what he has vowed.[11]
4. God then commands the fish to vomit Jonah out.[12]

Book of Jonah - Wikipedia
During all the four phases Jonah was remained alive and did not die for a moment even, please. Right friend, please?

Jesus is narrated to have said as per sinful Mathew:

38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”
39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 12:38-40 - New International Version

So, here is a strong clue in the Bible that Jesus had not to die and did not die on the Cross for a moment even, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

good point.
Jonah's trip to the whale's stomach mirrors Jesus's trip into the world of death.
Jesus remains spiritually alive but was actually dead during three days and resurrected afterwards.
This is how I see it at least.

 

[paarsurrey]

good point.
Jonah's trip to the whale's stomach mirrors Jesus's trip into the world of death.
Jesus remains spiritually alive but was actually dead during three days and resurrected afterwards.
This is how I see it at least.

I understand, it is just one's sinful guess, please, as it entails that Jesus did not fulfil the Sign of Jonah- and that is the greatest sign of innocent Jesus, please. Right friend, please?
Jonah was all along live, both body and spirit, before going into the belly of fish within the belly of fish and outside the belly of the fish.
Right friend, please?
Kindly don't insult innocent Jesus, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[ppp]

Let's hypothetically consider I was there asking Jesus if he wanted my help. If Jesus would tell me that he wishes that Gods will shall be done... I would ask God what his will is. If I won't get an answer I wouldn't interfere there.

I read this several hours ago, and have gone from being appalled to just plain sad.
What you are telling me is that if you had the power and ability to stop someone from being brutally tortured and killed that you would not act to prevent it unless you had an explicit request.

 

[Moses_UK]

The 'narrative' is a story that can be interpreted in several ways. Dawkins, like most atheists, insists on interpreting the story in the most superstitious manner, and then rejecting it on that basis. It's quite the 'straw man' act.

Listen, most atheists are formed due to the inability of Christians to exhibit common sense. I am surprised and always believe that being smart and being Christian is an oxymoron.

 

[Moses_UK]

Who told us that Jesus died in the first place?