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Featured Jesus: The Misunderstood Messiah

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Renki, Feb 6, 2021.

  1. Renki

    Renki mystical poet
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    Examining His life, I have often encountered the claim that because Jesus of Nazareth doesn’t fulfill certain prophecies, He’s not the Messiah.

    My response? From one perspective, that’s true. He was certainly a different kind of figure than people were hoping for. You would be right.

    Yet, I do think that because of His Claim to be a different kind of messianic person: a saviour kind of figure, a king who governed the hearts of people, not one who aspired to earthly rule, both Jewish people and those of us who are non-Jews (yes, even Christians) have tended to not give His Teachings a open-hearted look otherwise.

    My question for Jews, Christians, and others: Whether or not you believe that Jesus is the Messiah, is there anything you find of worth or value to Jesus or His Teachings?
     
    #1 Renki, Feb 6, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2021
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  2. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    It the religious who most misunderdtsnd who he was.
     
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  3. Kenny

    Kenny Face to face with my Father
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    I'm not sure why we are zeroing on Jewish people since Gentiles can also misunderstand Jesus. Not only that, but it was the Jews that began the preaching.

    Why are you zeroing in on the Jewish people?
     
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  4. Renki

    Renki mystical poet
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    Because I’m addressing a claiming that Jewish people make. People in non-Jewish religions, usually speaking, don’t care about any Messiah. It doesn’t apply to them.
     
  5. Left Coast

    Left Coast Still Gay
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    It is not "slander" of Jesus to say, "I don't think he met the requirements of what the Tanakh says the Messiah will be/do, therefore I don't think he was the Messiah."

    He didn't. He was no more a king than I am a President. If I claimed to be the President, then redefined "President" to mean, "a spiritual leader of people hearts," that would be an absurd moving of the goalposts on my part.

    On some level, I think even Christians recognize this, as they admit Jesus didn't fulfill all the requirements. Thus they claim he's going to come back a second time to finish the job.
     
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  6. Renki

    Renki mystical poet
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    Perhaps, dear Audie.
     
  7. Renki

    Renki mystical poet
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    The Tanakh never clearly established who the Messiah will be or what He will do. All of the verses debated between Jews and Christians have nothing to do with the Messiah Himself. At the most, they’re historically prophetic; they don’t deal with a human figure.

    Regarding the analogy of a president, you could be the president of anything: a nation, a book club, or some other organization.

    So, let’s use your analogy: I’m claiming to be the President of my Book Club. You say, “Mauricius, you’re not the President, Joe Biden is!” I would respond, “I’m not claiming to be the President of the country, LC. It’s a book club I’m talkin’ about, wanna join?”

    As to Christians, I understand that their goal is to convince religious Jews that Jesus fits their conception of who the Messiah is and what He will do. He doesn’t. He didn’t come for this. At least, not the first time.
    He came to establish a kingdom within the hearts of people. His disciples didn’t understand that, either. They, too, were expecting Jesus to be the Messiah of mainstream Judaism. That’s why you’ve got them asking in the Book of Acts,
    “Lord, are you going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”


    Even so, all of the things that religious Jews say the Messiah will do, Jesus never once claimed He was going to do, so again, this discrepancy ought to be addressed.

    And yes, it is slanderous to call someone a liar based on one’s own misunderstanding.
     
    #7 Renki, Feb 6, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2021
  8. Left Coast

    Left Coast Still Gay
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    Then how could Jesus claim to be the Messiah, if the criteria were unclear? On what basis?

    That's mainly true of passage Christians think are Messianic, but Jews don't. When dealing with passages they agree refer to the Messiah, the claim is always that Jesus will come back later to finish the job.

    The discrepancy is addressed by them not believing he's the Messiah. They believe the Messiah is going to do xyz. Jesus didn't do xyz. Thus, he doesn't make the cut. That's not "slander."
     
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  9. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    You havent a clue why I said that, do you?
     
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  10. Renki

    Renki mystical poet
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    I have a feeling, though I do invite an explanation. I’m not always adept at deciphering what people mean in particular when they say certain things.
     
  11. capumetu

    capumetu Active Member

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    The Bible revealed the time the Messiah was to come. Jehovah's people anticipated the Messiah's time period and thought that maybe John the baptizer might be him Luke 3:15.

    Jerusalem was destroyed along with the lineage records shortly thereafter and therefore any messiah that came afterwards would have no documentation of lineage. Evidence shows that Jesus was the promised Messiah.
     
  12. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Jews look at what little can be perceived
    of him through the lens of the belief he
    was not this or that.

    You, through the lens of what you choose to
    think he was.

    Historical figures are changed by
    society into something quite different,
    from who they were,, to be in keeping
    with what sort of hero etc they want.

    No doubt you could come up with many
    examples, a scholar could probably cite
    and recite until you were overcome by
    exhaustion.

    It happens to all historic figures, in some degree!

    Its a pity, because the interesting real person
    gets lost, and the lessons in reality are distorted.

    So too, Jesus, whatever his real name, wherever
    whenever he was really born, where or when
    he died, all unknown.

    Whatever he really did is lost and distorted
    to where he would not recognize himself
    in the stories.

    Its too bad, he may have been a remarkable person.
     
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  13. Renki

    Renki mystical poet
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    Again, you missed the point, LC. Religious Jews today and Jesus then have very different conceptions of who the Messiah is and what He’s going to do. To claim that someone is false is to call them a liar. Not only that, it’s a misrepresentation of what He DOES say.

    I ask, once again, “Understanding what Jesus Himself is recorded as having said about His role as Messiah, where’s the blatant lie? Does Jesus claim to do the things that religious Jews say that the Messiah will do?”
     
  14. Left Coast

    Left Coast Still Gay
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    As well as Jews then, mind you.

    That's simply not true. People can be honestly wrong. Happens every day.

    No, again, it isn't. They believe the Messiah will fulfill certain criteria. Jesus doesn't. Ergo, they don't think he's the Messiah. Fairly straightforward.

    Also, we have no clue what Jesus actually said about anything.
     
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  15. Renki

    Renki mystical poet
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    There were different conceptions of who the Messiah was and what He was expected to do.




    I suppose that’s true. However, that’s not based on what He actually claims, but rather their own expectations.
     
  16. Left Coast

    Left Coast Still Gay
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    Yes, I understand it's based on their own expectations. That's fairly obvious. That doesn't make their view "slander."
     
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  17. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Amusingly enough, you echo what I
    pointed out.

    Not what he actually said but what they
    wanted him to have said.

    Written down 70 years later!

    Without introducing magic to explain it,
    there's no way to claim accuracy.

    Yet its presented as verbatim!
     
  18. Renki

    Renki mystical poet
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    Again, it is. Because of the fact that their view of the Messiah is very different from His view of the Messiah.


    I think it’s absolutely fine to have different conceptions of things. What I’m not fond of, however, is superimposing one’s own conception of something onto something else that is different in the first place.
     
  19. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Ha. Again, echoing what I said.
    Are you immune to the vice you decry?
     
  20. Left Coast

    Left Coast Still Gay
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    Except the Jews' conception came first. Jesus didn't invent the concept of the Messiah. He redefined it. Even the Gospels admit this. Jesus' own disciples thought the Messiah would do xyz, which Jesus didn't.

    So it's Jesus (or more accurately, Christians) who superimposed a novel understanding of the Messiah onto the existing concept.
     
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