1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Jesus on doomsday

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Michelle, Oct 19, 2004.

  1. Michelle

    Michelle We are all related

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Messages:
    141
    Ratings:
    +11
    Mark 9

    1And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."


    Matthew 16

    27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

    Luke 9
    26If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

    Well we are still waiting and those verses imply that Jesus predicted, or thought, they would happen in the lifetime of his audience. I want to make another point here. We really cannot assume Jesus said those things . The authors said he did but that's my point about the bible. You cannot know what to believe or what not to believe. The Authors added their opinions about morals, they exaggerated, and in some cases , lied about Mircacles in an effort to show how powerful God was. In other words, you better believe like I do or you are going to suffer the wrath of God. In some cases it appears that the author was covering up a crime and blaming it on God.


    Numbers 16

    1 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites-Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth-became insolent [1] 2 and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council. 3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, "You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the LORD's assembly?"
    4 When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. 5 Then he said to Korah and all his followers: "In the morning the LORD will show who belongs to him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him. The man he chooses he will cause to come near him. 6 You, Korah, and all your followers are to do this: Take censers 7 and tomorrow put fire and incense in them before the LORD . The man the LORD chooses will be the one who is holy. You Levites have gone too far!"
    8 Moses also said to Korah, "Now listen, you Levites! 9 Isn't it enough for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the rest of the Israelite community and brought you near himself to do the work at the LORD's tabernacle and to stand before the community and minister to them? 10 He has brought you and all your fellow Levites near himself, but now you are trying to get the priesthood too. 11 It is against the LORD that you and all your followers have banded together. Who is Aaron that you should grumble against him?"
    12 Then Moses summoned Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab. But they said, "We will not come! 13 Isn't it enough that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the desert? And now you also want to lord it over us? 14 Moreover, you haven't brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey or given us an inheritance of fields and vineyards. Will you gouge out the eyes of [2] these men? No, we will not come!"
    15 Then Moses became very angry and said to the LORD , "Do not accept their offering. I have not taken so much as a donkey from them, nor have I wronged any of them."
    16 Moses said to Korah, "You and all your followers are to appear before the LORD tomorrow-you and they and Aaron. 17 Each man is to take his censer and put incense in it-250 censers in all-and present it before the LORD . You and Aaron are to present your censers also." 18 So each man took his censer, put fire and incense in it, and stood with Moses and Aaron at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 19 When Korah had gathered all his followers in opposition to them at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, the glory of the LORD appeared to the entire assembly. 20 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 21 "Separate yourselves from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once."
    22 But Moses and Aaron fell facedown and cried out, "O God, God of the spirits of all mankind, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?"
    23 Then the LORD said to Moses, 24 "Say to the assembly, 'Move away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.' "
    25 Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He warned the assembly, "Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins." 27 So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents.
    28 Then Moses said, "This is how you will know that the LORD has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea: 29 If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me. 30 But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, [3] then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
    31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. 34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, "The earth is going to swallow us too!"
    35 And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.
    36 The LORD said to Moses, 37 "Tell Eleazar son of Aaron, the priest, to take the censers out of the smoldering remains and scatter the coals some distance away, for the censers are holy- 38 the censers of the men who sinned at the cost of their lives. Hammer the censers into sheets to overlay the altar, for they were presented before the LORD and have become holy. Let them be a sign to the Israelites."
    39 So Eleazar the priest collected the bronze censers brought by those who had been burned up, and he had them hammered out to overlay the altar, 40 as the LORD directed him through Moses. This was to remind the Israelites that no one except a descendant of Aaron should come to burn incense before the LORD , or he would become like Korah and his followers.

    I'm sorry but it is easier for me to believe that Moses had the men killed to protect his authority .
     
  2. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Ratings:
    +132
    Are you trying to say that Jesus said the second coming would be in the lifetime of his audience? Becuase I do not think that that is what is meant by those passages. I think that Jesus is simply saying here that His audience would be alive when the kingdom of heaven arrives. The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are the same thing.
     
  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    6,823
    Ratings:
    +1,614
    Religion:
    ├śneness
    If Yeshua also said i will return shortly and that John the baptist was elijah
    Then does that not mean that reincarnation does happen and so when he said them things he meant it, in a spiritual sense as spirit is infinite
    Also many of them did see him come in his glory after Yeshua's death he returned sitting at the right hand side of god
     
  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    36,698
    Ratings:
    +10,018
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Really?
    gMat 16:28 ... , some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
    Nascent Christianity clearly believed that the 2nd coming was at hand.
     
  5. Wes

    Wes New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2004
    Messages:
    10
    Ratings:
    +1
    Jesus is talking about his particular audience, if you take it to be that it was for all times then usually the verse was reworked by an editor when the gospels were put together. Jesus was just as much a part of his time, and tried to test God because what he saw to be true and died for it. I don't think he's coming back.
     
  6. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    36,698
    Ratings:
    +10,018
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Or, more accurately, the author of gMat wrote a dialogue in which 'Jesus' made certain claims to those around him, which is just another way of saying that nascent Christianity viewed the coming of the messiah as a near term event.
     
  7. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    An authority of some sort was indeed protected although I believe it was for the seed of Aaron, that no stranger not of Aaron come before the Lord to offer the insenses. Clearly Korah started a rebellion. Korah claimed that the entire congregation was holy. The Lord told Moses and Aaron to seperate themselves from the whole congregation to watch the destruction. But Moses pleaded with the Lord not to destroy all of them, therefore the Lord only destroyed Korah, Dathan, Abiram. Without the plea from Moses the entire Israel congregation was to be destroyed because they were not holy. Its a memorial to Israel that no stranger which is not from the seed of Aaron was to offer the insense before the Lord.

    Then afterwards people began to say Moses had the men killed, perhaps to protect an authority. The Lord's wrath continued to flow out because of their murmurs against Moses. Rather then seeing Moses as having the "holy" people killed, time and again I see him pleading with the Lord not to completely destroy them. Perhaps Moses is the only reason the children of Israel survived for the Lord was ready to destroy them and perhaps choose a different nation.
     
  8. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Ratings:
    +132
    I'm confused. How does this passage prove what the early christians believed? These are the words of Jesus, they do not state any beliefs of any particular group. Could you explain?
     
  9. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    Perhaps something is amiss due to translations. Its very possible that Jesus was addressing those standing with him that day, listening to him teach the truth, that at his return, aka when the Son is coming in his kingdom, the Rapture, that there will be people living at this time and will witness or be a part of this second coming. I think there is an error of punctuation in this verse as well. That comma could go other places, perhaps even two comma's. A misplaced comma could cause gross misunderstanding.
     
  10. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,049
    Ratings:
    +860
    You`re obfuscating and changing the subject.
    What the early Christians believed has nothing to do with what Jesus said (Ain`t that the truth in more ways than one?).
    You are correct when saying that these words do not state the beliefs of any group but they provide evidence of the falsity of one groups beliefs

    Jesus said..

    Matthew 16:28
    16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    This obviously states that those he is speaking to will still be alive upon his second coming.
    Those he was speaking to are now dead.
    He isn`t here .

    Jesus was wrong
    No Biggie..he obviously wasn`t that good at prophesy.

    On what authority to you change the literal word of Jesus?
    "There be some standing here"

    From..
    "There be some standing here"
    You get...


    Thats a pretty big stretch isn`t it?

    What comma might that be?

    It doesn`t matter, I`m sorry Trueblood as I`m always attempting to argue Biblical errancy with you and neglecting to remember you don`t advocate it.

    As far as your beliefs of the validity of the Bible goes the only argument I have is that I believe a true God would have been much mnore careful in how his words were presented through the ages.


     
  11. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Ratings:
    +132
    Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse anyone. Deut responded to a statement I made and I was merely asking a question about it. I apologize.



    I think you are misinterpreting Jesus' words. The Kingdom is not the second coming. The second coming is the Day of Judgement. The Kingdom is the Kingdom of heaven. It is a spiritual Kingdom. THat is why I said that the Kingdom of heaven arrived within the lifetime of Jesus' audience. It is a reference to the usage of the term Kingdom in Matthew 3:2; 4:17; and 10:7.
     
  12. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,049
    Ratings:
    +860
    You must admit that this is a unique view among Christians.

    Most would argue the point that it was indeed Jesus speaking of the second coming.

    In fact I`ve seen this debate more times than I can count and this is the first time I`ve heard the apologetics you put forth.

    I like the originality.
    :)

    This story is described in the other gospels as well.
    The context it is in supports the second coming of Jesus.
    Luke even says it will happen on the Earth, have an affect on the earth, and that Jesus is "coming".
    Luke 21:25-32
    And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
    And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

    Mark writes of it twice.
    Unfortunately the first time there is no context surrounding it..
    Mark 9-1
    And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

    Mark 13 States that Jesus is coming to earth with his angels
    Where is he sending those angels?
    Mark 13:23-30
    But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
    But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
    And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
    And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
    Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
    So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors.
    Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

    The verse we were originally discussing states that Jesus is coming to the earth with his angels
    Matthew 16:27-28

    For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
    Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    This all looks like an Earthly second coming to me.

    Those references are also generally believed to be in reference to an Earthly second coming and I see no support for any other belief.

    If I and most Christians are incorrect then where and when does Jesus speak of his second coming?

    If reference to it is only in Revelations then Jesus didn`t foretell his return to this world at all.



     
  13. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Ratings:
    +132

    Here, yes, Jesus is speaking of His second coming. No problem there. But...

    When Jesus says, "This generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled," he is speaking about the fulfillment of the Jewish Law and the arrival of a new Kingdom, the spiritual Kingdom. The subject of His speech changes.


    Actually there is plenty of context. You have to read the following verses. He is speaking of His transfiguration. Peter, James, and John all saw heaven from a distance when they saw Jesus' transfiguration. That is what He speaks of here.



    This passage once again does indeed refer to the second coming, But only up through verse 27. Starting in verse 28 He begins the parable of the fig tree again. Referring to the fulfillment of the Law and the arrival of the Lord's spiritual Kingdom.


    Isn't there a difference between "the Glory of His father" and "His Kingdom"? I believe there is. He speaks of the Second Coming and then he shifts his speech to that of the (spiritual) Kingdom. Does this explain my position on this subject? I understand that there are times when He is referring to the Second Coming, but other times he is simply referring to something else (something that will happen immediately, i.e. the transfiguration orthe arrival of a spiritual kingdom) .
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,049
    Ratings:
    +860

    I understand your position perfectly, I just have no clue how you came to it...still don`t.

    Again, I`m not seeing it but it`s no big deal.

    I understand you.

    Thanks Linus
     
  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    36,698
    Ratings:
    +10,018
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Not confused, simply gullible. What you insist are "the words of Jesus" are more reasonably viewed as story diaogue authored decades later by a series of people who were eye-witnesses to absolutely nothing. There is both clear evidence of fabrication and circumstantial evidence of interpolation/embellishment.
     
  16. blood-lord14

    blood-lord14 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Messages:
    136
    Ratings:
    +1
    LIES,LIES,AND MORE BELIEVERS TO FOLLOW THEM HOW STUPID AND EVIL CAN YOU GUYS GET?

    god is word.jesus is image....but we are the image of god are we not?
    he wants to smite us for limited sins and a limited life I DON'T THINK SO.
    we are sacrifices to his own enlightenment his own fire
    and you people are to blind to notice your to bust preaching to thin air.
    so what if armeggeddon comes i'm ready at least i noticed he USED ME in the church for a waste of time.
    you are his bait
    he doesn't care
    just shows it
    in scriptures older than you and i
    he is manipulative
    we are his food,
    he is the hunter
    what part of that DON'T you understand?
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    36,698
    Ratings:
    +10,018
    Religion:
    Judaism
    ( Forgive me, but you're not very good at this ... )
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. MdmSzdWhtGuy

    MdmSzdWhtGuy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Ratings:
    +289
    I am trying to think of a name for BloodLord's writing style. So far it eludes me. Shakespeare had iambic pentameter, there is Old English, poetic, several styles or types of writing, and for the life of me, I read what he writes, and just end up shaking my head and wishing I could figure out a name for it.

    Any thoughts? It is certainly unique.

    And back to the point of the thread. It is very well documented and not hard to figure out that Jesus was speaking to a group of people about events that would transpire within their lifetimes. Peter said the same sorts of things after the death of Jesus. It is very clear from first century church writings that they thought the end of the world would come in their lifetimes. Church has used this as a scare tactic for the past 20 centuries now.

    B.
     
  19. Bangbang

    Bangbang Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Messages:
    891
    Ratings:
    +71
    Seems to me he lied. Yes.....I know...I am goin to Hell.
     
  20. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    Linus, good job, the kingdom of God came to earth at pentecost, with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and the beginning of the church, Christ had to die for it to happen. It is clear to anyone who would study real theology, with an open mind. It is not so difficult to determine when he is talking of end time events or events closer in time, like the fall of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jewish people. These guys DO NOT BELIEVE in Jesus, and I fear they never will, as bad as I hate to say it, I think you may be wasting your time. But proclaim the good news anyway, there are folks with hearts able still to receive it. I give you frubal, friend, and God bless you.

    Sincerely,

    Joeboonda
     
Loading...