Jesus is the only way.

[Desert Snake]

Yes, it's okay not to be Christian. You in general or you as in me? What do you mean by go beyond what you don't expect of others? You mean, not to tell them what to do that I wouldn't expect others to do? Others as in Christians or non-Christians?

I'm getting confused.

'You' as in church teachings. In general.
I'm saying baptism can't be that important if it only applies to xians.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

'You' as in church teachings. In general.
I'm saying baptism can't be that important if it only applies to xians.

Well, baptism is important to Christians. To a non-christian, of course, there is no significance to Christian baptism in their life.

As for the first statement,

If it's okay to not be a Xian, then the Church teachings shouldn't be compelling Xians to go beyond what they don't expect of others.

The Church shouldn't go beyond as in how? If they don't expect non-Christians to be baptized, why should they expect Christians??

 

[Glaurung]

So you agree with me.
Also, if baptism is necessary, then it has to be necessary for everyone, not just those claiming to be xians. That makes no sense.

It is necessary for anyone who wishes to enter the Church. Without baptism you cannot be in the Church, and those who wilfully reject the Church in knowledge cannot be saved.

 

[Desert Snake]

It is necessary for anyone who wishes to enter the Church. Without baptism you cannot be in the Church, and those who wilfully reject the Church in knowledge cannot be saved.

That's ridiculous.

 

[Desert Snake]

Well, baptism is important to Christians. To a non-christian, of course, there is no significance to Christian baptism in their life.

As for the first statement,

If it's okay to not be a Xian, then the Church teachings shouldn't be compelling Xians to go beyond what they don't expect of others.

The Church shouldn't go beyond as in how? If they don't expect non-Christians to be baptized, why should they expect Christians??

Baptism can't be that important to Chrisitains who think baptism is only for xians, but its 'ok' for non-xians to not be baptized. Because that means they are saying the unbaptized non-Xian is de-facto 'holier' than an unbaptized Xian.

 

[Glaurung]

That's ridiculous.

What's the difficulty?

There is no salvation outside of Christ.
Christ instituted the Church to bring about that salvation for all who accept it.
To be a member of the Church, one must be baptised.
Ergo, baptism is necessary for salvation.

That's not to say that anyone not within the visible Church is automatically damned, God is bigger than the visible Church, but to intentionally stay out of it if there be even an ounce of faith in the depths of one's heart is one in the same as rejecting Christ. Which if persisted in until the very end, precludes salvation.

 

[Desert Snake]

What's the difficulty?

There is no salvation outside of Christ.
Christ instituted the Church to bring about that salvation for all who accept it.
To be a member of the Church, one must be baptised.
Ergo, baptism is necessary for salvation.

That's not to say that anyone not within the visible Church is automatically damned, God is bigger than the visible Church, but to intentionally stay out of it if there be even an ounce of faith in the depths of one's heart is one in the same as rejecting Christ. Which if persisted in until the very end, precludes salvation.

Then you are saying that non-xians aren't saved.

 

[Desert Snake]

What's the difficulty?

There is no salvation outside of Christ.
Christ instituted the Church to bring about that salvation for all who accept it.
To be a member of the Church, one must be baptised.
Ergo, baptism is necessary for salvation.

That's not to say that anyone not within the visible Church is automatically damned, God is bigger than the visible Church, but to intentionally stay out of it if there be even an ounce of faith in the depths of one's heart is one in the same as rejecting Christ. Which if persisted in until the very end, precludes salvation.

Which is it?

 

[Glaurung]

Which is it?

Baptism is necessary to be a member of the Church, and you are obligated to accept the Church if you believe. But if though no fault of your own, you fail to recognise Christ and his Church, then you cannot be held accountable for an explicit rejection of a Church you had no way of knowing.

You still must accept Christ, and what actually occurs between a soul and God at the point of death is unknowable. There is reason to think that at this point every soul ignorant or not, is given a final opportunity to accept God. But whatever be the case, we just cannot pronounce of the eternal fate of any soul because we just cannot know what happens between it and God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's a tongue twister, I must say. Christians are saying that unbaptized non-Christians are better (or holier?) than un-baptized Christians?

Most Christians I know think the other way around. They wan't people to be Christians in order to be saved, of course. How intensely they want Christians to be baptized depends heavily on the denominational perspective.

Baptism can't be that important to Chrisitains who think baptism is only for xians, but its 'ok' for non-xians to not be baptized.

Because that means they are saying the unbaptized non-Xian is de-facto 'holier' than an unbaptized Xian.

 

[RedDragon94]

It's clear from Scripture that Jesus alone saves, not your church, not your 'baptism', not how much you tithe, (works are useless without faith), so why all the focus on church, baptism, or tithing, Jesus is the only one who can baptize us in Spirit, not some dude wearing wading boots and chanting incantations, nada, ladies and gentlemen.

Without the things like doing church, baptism, and tithing it would hard for the church to grow. We do those things because they remind us of the way God has worked in us. Like you said, they aren't merit based. I don't think they're completely symbolic though.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It's clear from Scripture that Jesus alone saves, not your church, not your 'baptism', not how much you tithe, (works are useless without faith), so why all the focus on church, baptism, or tithing, Jesus is the only one who can baptize us in Spirit, not some dude wearing wading boots and chanting incantations, nada, ladies and gentlemen.

Some "churches" are cults that overemphasize the rituals and giving, yes. Others have a balanced view. An unbaptized adult Christian is likely to experience little personal growth, but then explosive growth following public testimony in water baptism.

 

[atpollard]

so why all the focus on church, baptism, or tithing

WHY: John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands." (Jesus said to do it.)

CHURCH: Hebrews 10:24-25 "And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching." (Why gathering together is important).

BAPTISM: Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(apparently shortly after Jesus ascended, and while under the influence of the Holy Spirit, the Apostle Peter thought it was a good idea.)

TITHING: (If you believe that the parts of the old covenant not specifically abolished are still in effect, then) Malachi 3:8 “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me. “But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’ “In tithes and offerings."
(If you believe that only the new covenant counts, then) Matthew 6:2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full." (Implies that people are giving) Luke 11:42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone." (Jesus commands tithing) 1 Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." (the tithe can serve to remind us that God is our security, not our gold).

YMMV

 

[Desert Snake]

WHY: John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands." (Jesus said to do it.)

This meaning is variable by topic and interpretation.

CHURCH: Hebrews 10:24-25 "And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching." (Why gathering together is important).

Many churches are not good for worship of Jesus, imo. Just attending church because your 'supposed to meet' with other 'Xians is a paltry reason. Is the church good? The denomination? Is anything being furthered in Xianity? It's subjective, again. Meeting for the sake of meeting is going against the teachings as well. Oops.

BAPTISM: Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(apparently shortly after Jesus ascended, and while under the influence of the Holy Spirit, the Apostle Peter thought it was a good idea.)

That's nice. Where is the direct commandmaent by Jesus for all Xians to be baptized? A lot of things can be ''inferred'' from Scripture, I'm not in the inferring business.

TITHING: (If you believe that the parts of the old covenant not specifically abolished are still in effect, then) Malachi 3:8 “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me. “But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’ “In tithes and offerings."
(If you believe that only the new covenant counts, then) Matthew 6:2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full." (Implies that people are giving) Luke 11:42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone." (Jesus commands tithing) 1 Timothy 6:10 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." (the tithe can serve to remind us that God is our security, not our gold).

YMMV

This actually has nothing to do with 'tithing'.

 

[Desert Snake]

Some "churches" are cults that overemphasize the rituals and giving, yes. Others have a balanced view. An unbaptized adult Christian is likely to experience little personal growth, but then explosive growth following public testimony in water baptism.

This is from personal experience, or what? What evidence do you have of this?

 

[atpollard]

This meaning is variable by topic and interpretation.

Many churches are not good for worship of Jesus, imo. Just attending church because your 'supposed to meet' with other 'Xians is a paltry reason. Is the church good? The denomination? Is anything being furthered in Xianity? It's subjective, again. Meeting for the sake of meeting is going against the teachings as well. Oops.

That's nice. Where is the direct commandmaent by Jesus for all Xians to be baptized? A lot of things can be ''inferred'' from Scripture, I'm not in the inferring business.

This actually has nothing to do with 'tithing'.

I was not attempting to prove that any of those things are required.
Each has multiple topics debating it already.
I was addressing the very specific question of "why all the focus on these four things".

 

[Thanda]

That's nice. Where is the direct commandment by Jesus for all Xians to be baptized? A lot of things can be ''inferred'' from Scripture, I'm not in the inferring business.

I'm surprised no one has given you the most simple and direct quote to answer your question. John 3:

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

No one can be saved outside the kingdom of God. But according to Jesus no one can enter the kingdom of God without being Baptized. Therefore it follows that no one can be saved without being baptized.

Here's another very straightforward scripture. Matthew 28:19 (Again this is Jesus Speaking):

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:​

There is simply no way around it. As much as some people would like to believe that you can believe and Christ and then do whatever you want it is simply not the case. God's house is a house of Order and those who will enter into it must obey his laws.

 

[atpollard]

I'm surprised no one has given you the most simple and direct quote to answer your question. John 3:

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

No one can be saved outside the kingdom of God. But according to Jesus no one can enter the kingdom of God without being Baptized. Therefore it follows that no one can be saved without being baptized.

Here's another very straightforward scripture. Matthew 28:19 (Again this is Jesus Speaking):

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:​

There is simply no way around it. As much as some people would like to believe that you can believe and Christ and then do whatever you want it is simply not the case. God's house is a house of Order and those who will enter into it must obey his laws.

While I generally agree, the thief on the cross pokes a thumb in the eye of baptism as an ABSOLUTE requirement.

Personally speaking, I converted from Atheism to trust in Jesus with no formal, public event.
God honored my faith as much as anyone else's.
A decade later I happened to mention in passing that I had never actually been baptized ... not because of a disbelief in water baptism, but as a natural result of unusual circumstances leading to my redemption.
I was honored to eventually make a public proclamation of the faith that I had been living and the work that Jesus had wrought.
However, I saw no change from before the immersion to after ... I was a work in progress ... I am a work in progress ... I expect to continue to be a work in progress for the foreseeable future.

Legalism, even scripturally sound legalism, just rubs me the wrong way, so I wanted to chime in with my 2 cents.

 

[Thanda]

While I generally agree, the thief on the cross pokes a thumb in the eye of baptism as an ABSOLUTE requirement.

Personally speaking, I converted from Atheism to trust in Jesus with no formal, public event.
God honored my faith as much as anyone else's.
A decade later I happened to mention in passing that I had never actually been baptized ... not because of a disbelief in water baptism, but as a natural result of unusual circumstances leading to my redemption.
I was honored to eventually make a public proclamation of the faith that I had been living and the work that Jesus had wrought.
However, I saw no change from before the immersion to after ... I was a work in progress ... I am a work in progress ... I expect to continue to be a work in progress for the foreseeable future.

Legalism, even scripturally sound legalism, just rubs me the wrong way, so I wanted to chime in with my 2 cents.

God's house is a house of order and there can be no order without law. Every time God reveals himself to man he gives commandments and laws. The first words God spoke to Adam (according to the Bible) were a commamdment. So do not despise the commandments of God. They are his Word and his Word is mighty to save.

 

[atpollard]

God's house is a house of order and there can be no order without law. Every time God reveals himself to man he gives commandments and laws. The first words God spoke to Adam (according to the Bible) were a commandment. So do not despise the commandments of God. They are his Word and his Word is mighty to save.

If one MUST be baptized with water to enter the kingdom, as you claim ...
... What about the Thief on the Cross? Was Jesus just blowing smoke at him? ('Sorry, you were not baptized, so Jesus will NOT be seeing you in paradise like he said.')
... What about death-bed conversions? Are they disqualified from forgiveness because that are unable to go and be immersed?

It may seem like I am nit picking here, or offering silly "what if's".
That is not actually the case.
I have only ever gotten truly angry at someones Christian theology once.
A group of 'Church of Christ' (whatever the heck they believe) members had reduced a young believer to near tears because they had convinced him that he had been baptized improperly and was, therefore, unsaved and going to hell.
Whatever righteousness they may have had (and that is debatable), there was clearly no love present in that Conquest.

God is bigger than petty formulas or quick incantations to ward off hell.
I am not hating on 'commandments'.
I am merely compelled by 'love' ... and I strongly recommend it to anyone.