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Jesus is the only way.

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
It's clear from Scripture that Jesus alone saves, not your church, not your 'baptism', not how much you tithe, (works are useless without faith), so why all the focus on church, baptism, or tithing, Jesus is the only one who can baptize us in Spirit, not some dude wearing wading boots and chanting incantations, nada, ladies and gentlemen.
 

stillsong

Member
An experience of Jesus's experience in the wilderness would awaken in us a similar experience as Jesus had, but many of us are not ready. We need to prepare ourselves. This can be through religion and all it entails.
The raft across the river of ignorance and sin is the preparation to begin again the journey to the promised land.
The representatives of religion are only serving as disciples to the best degree they are able.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It's clear from Scripture that Jesus alone saves, not your church, not your 'baptism', not how much you tithe, (works are useless without faith), so why all the focus on church, baptism, or tithing, Jesus is the only one who can baptize us in Spirit, not some dude wearing wading boots and chanting incantations, nada, ladies and gentlemen.
I agree that Jesus is the only way, but I suppose I understand that statement differently than you do. I don't think that scripture means to say that we are therefore absolved of all responsibility. I believe that if we're going to claim to have faith in Christ, we must be faithful to Christ. Being faithful to Him means keeping His commandments. While works are useless without faith, faith without works is dead. I see our own participation in the salvation process as being critical. Nevertheless, I don't believe there is a single one of us who is cabable of returning to God's presence without Jesus Christ having sacrificed himself on our behalf. We are simply incapable of doing so.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I agree that Jesus is the only way, but I suppose I understand that statement differently than you do. I don't think that scripture means to say that we are therefore absolved of all responsibility. I believe that if we're going to claim to have faith in Christ, we must be faithful to Christ. Being faithful to Him means keeping His commandments. While works are useless without faith, faith without works is dead. I see our own participation in the salvation process as being critical. Nevertheless, I don't believe there is a single one of us who is cabable of returning to God's presence without Jesus Christ having sacrificed himself on our behalf. We are simply incapable of doing so.

You seem to be equating responsibility with the symbolic church acts, yet those could also be used as an excuse to remove responsibility.

I don't really know what the second part is implying, if Jesus already sacrificed Himself for everyone, then we don't need to accept Him as savior.
Basically, not really sure what your saying here...
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
John baptized Jesus, but Jesus didn't baptize John.

That was circumstantial, It is clear that they knew the water baptism was not the same as Jesus's baptism, they were using it as a method for people entering Xianity, not a constant absolving of sins or whatnot, big difference, that's why baptism was not required more than once for pagans changing religion.
 

Blackmarch

W'rkncacntr
It's clear from Scripture that Jesus alone saves, not your church, not your 'baptism', not how much you tithe, (works are useless without faith), so why all the focus on church, baptism, or tithing, Jesus is the only one who can baptize us in Spirit, not some dude wearing wading boots and chanting incantations, nada, ladies and gentlemen.
and faith is likewise useless without works - faith and works are two sides of the same coin, one doesn't work without the other and are intrinsically linked. And this coin is only obtainab;le thru the grace of Christ.

If you get baptised without having faith it doesn't work
same with choosing to skip baptism while claiming to believe.

Jesus is the one who justifies baptism and etc for anyone who has sinned.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
and faith is likewise useless without works - faith and works are two sides of the same coin, one doesn't work without the other and are intrinsically linked. And this coin is only obtainab;le thru the grace of Christ.

If you get baptised without having faith it doesn't work
same with choosing to skip baptism while claiming to believe.

Jesus is the one who justifies baptism and etc for anyone who has sinned.

I don't separate 'faith' from 'works'. I find the concept of somehow viewing them as different things in the same religion as nonsense and anti-thetical to my understanding of religious beliefs in general.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
It's clear from Scripture that Jesus alone saves, not your church, not your 'baptism', not how much you tithe, (works are useless without faith), so why all the focus on church, baptism, or tithing, Jesus is the only one who can baptize us in Spirit, not some dude wearing wading boots and chanting incantations, nada, ladies and gentlemen.
Because Jesus gave us the Church, and He gave us baptism with water, in the Holy Spirit, administered by a member of the clergy. And Jesus commanded us to give to the poor.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Because Jesus gave us the Church, and He gave us baptism with water, in the Holy Spirit, administered by a member of the clergy. And Jesus commanded us to give to the poor.

It's John the Baptist, not Jesus the Baptist. John gave water baptism, not Jesus. The fact that you blatantly state otherwise tells me how seriously you take these religious concepts.
There is no 'clergy' in Jesus's time, it seems you are trying to obfuscate.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
It's John the Baptist, not Jesus the Baptist. John gave water baptism, not Jesus. The fact that you blatantly state otherwise tells me how seriously you take these religious concepts.
It is a well-known fact of history that the Apostles and those after them baptized people with water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus instructed them. See the Didache, and Acts 8, where the deacon Philip baptizes the Ethiopian eunuch in the river.

There is no 'clergy' in Jesus's time, it seems you are trying to obfuscate.
Then what do you call those who the Apostles appointed to help them in leading the Church, which He gave them authority over? What do you call the deacons appointed by the Apostles in the Book of Acts, chapter 6? What do you call the bishops and deacons for whom St. Paul gives Timothy a list of qualifications, in 1 Timothy 3? What do you call St. Paul's admonishment that the congregations be obedient and respectful to the presbyters that rule in 1 Timothy 5? What do you call the presbyters that were with the Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15?

As long as there has been the Church, there have been those who lead it, those appointed by the Apostles to succeed them in the ministry of tending to the flock of Christ, those who were appointed to teach the congregations and celebrate the Eucharist.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Because...

1. The Church is the Body of Christ. Wherever there is more than one person in my name, I am here--Christ says. As such, without the Church, Christ cannot be present. Church and Christ go hand in hand.

2. The Father sent the Holy Spirit to guide Christians in their path in Christ. Baptism is "washing away" one's sins in order to reconcile one's relationship with Christ. Jesus was baptized; the apostles were baptized; why cant Christians? Yes, Jesus is doing the Baptism... Christian's take part in it through the physical immersion.

3. Scripture says to title. People title to give to their government. In Catholicism, it says to give to the Church. If you think of how many people they give food to on a daily basis, how many people they help nurture their walk with Christ, how many people are starting to read scripture given the views of the Church changing, all the money you give is put to help others.


It's clear from Scripture th
at Jesus alone saves, not your church, not your 'baptism', not how much you tithe, (works are useless without faith), so why all the focus on church, baptism, or tithing, Jesus is the only one who can baptize us in Spirit, not some dude wearing wading boots and chanting incantations, nada, ladies and gentlemen.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Because...

1. The Church is the Body of Christ. Wherever there is more than one person in my name, I am here--Christ says. As such, without the Church, Christ cannot be present. Church and Christ go hand in hand.

2. The Father sent the Holy Spirit to guide Christians in their path in Christ. Baptism is "washing away" one's sins in order to reconcile one's relationship with Christ. Jesus was baptized; the apostles were baptized; why cant Christians? Yes, Jesus is doing the Baptism... Christian's take part in it through the physical immersion.

3. Scripture says to title. People title to give to their government. In Catholicism, it says to give to the Church. If you think of how many people they give food to on a daily basis, how many people they help nurture their walk with Christ, how many people are starting to read scripture given the views of the Church changing, all the money you give is put to help others.
Body of Christ means Christians. It has nothing to do with any individual church, or church 'buildings' etc.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The people "inside" the building is the Body of Christ. People keep looking at the expensive building gold, statues, and so forth and forget that there are people inside that worship Christ.

Body of Christ means Christians. It has nothing to do with any individual church, or church 'buildings' etc.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The people "inside" the building is the Body of Christ. People keep looking at the expensive building gold, statues, and so forth and forget that there are people inside that worship Christ.
So you agree with me.
Also, if baptism is necessary, then it has to be necessary for everyone, not just those claiming to be xians. That makes no sense.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
So you agree with me.
Also, if baptism is necessary, then it has to be necessary for everyone, not just those claiming to be xians. That makes no sense.

Right. It is necessary for everyone. Christianity says that if you are to give your life to Christ one should be baptized. Of course they want all people to believe in Christ "and" be baptized... but you have to do both.

So by default, everyone has to be christian to be baptized. Goes hand in hand.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Right. It is necessary for everyone. Christianity says that if you are to give your life to Christ one should be baptized. Of course they want all people to believe in Christ "and" be baptized... but you have to do both.

So by default, everyone has to be christian to be baptized. Goes hand in hand.
Nope, you misunderstood me. If you say "Christians should be baptized", then you have to specify who *shouldn't be compelled to be baptized. Then explain why those people are 'exempt' from the emphasis to baptize.
*or rather isn't necessary to be baptized
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Nope, you misunderstood me. If you say "Christians should be baptized", then you have to specify who *shouldn't be compelled to be baptized. Then explain why those people are 'exempt' from the emphasis to baptize.
*or rather isn't necessary to be baptized

I understand. Scripture says Christians should be baptized. Those who are not Christians cannot be and shouldn't be baptized because they do not want to or believe in Christ (it wouldn't make sense to baptize someone who doesn't believe in what they are doing and how it may affect them).

Non-Christians are exempt because they have to believe who baptizes them, how it influences them, and be changed to a new nature in Christ afterwards.

Makes more sense?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I understand. Scripture says Christians should be baptized. Those who are not Christians cannot be and shouldn't be baptized because they do not want to or believe in Christ (it wouldn't make sense to baptize someone who doesn't believe in what they are doing and how it may affect them).

Non-Christians are exempt because they have to believe who baptizes them, how it influences them, and be changed to a new nature in Christ afterwards.

Makes more sense?
well, is it ok then to not be a Xian? If it's ok to not be a Xian, then you shouldn't be compelling xians to go beyond what you don't expect of others.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
well, is it ok then to not be a Xian? If it's ok to not be a Xian, then you shouldn't be compelling xians to go beyond what you don't expect of others.

Yes, it's okay not to be Christian. You in general or you as in me? What do you mean by go beyond what you don't expect of others? You mean, not to tell them what to do that I wouldn't expect others to do? Others as in Christians or non-Christians?

I'm getting confused.
 
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