How can you deem Jesus to be the literal son of God, but then discard the title of the Son of God when the bible gives the same name to other prophets (i.e Soloman, all of Israel, etc.). This is the crux of the matter. You can either take the whole bible as literal, ascribe sonship to Jesus along with Soloman, the land of Israel and others, or you take the language as figurative (as would seem in the case of exodus 4, verse 22 "and thou shalt say unto pharaoh, thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my first born") and accept that Jesus is not the son of God, just a dearly beloved prophet of his, and righteous enough to be referred to as his son, as God himself has done to other righteous personas as well.
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Jesus Is NOT GOD (my rant)
- Thread starter goraya15
- Start date
How can you deem Jesus to be the literal son of God, but then discard the title of the Son of God when the bible gives the same name to other prophets (i.e Soloman, all of Israel, etc.). This is the crux of the matter. You can either take the whole bible as literal, ascribe sonship to Jesus along with Soloman, the land of Israel and others, or you take the language as figurative (as would seem in the case of exodus 4, verse 22 "and thou shalt say unto pharaoh, thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my first born") and accept that Jesus is not the son of God, just a dearly beloved prophet of his, and righteous enough to be referred to as his son, as God himself has done to other righteous personas as well.
Why do you believe that a scapegoat is needed by God so that humanity doesn't all go to Hell? In the words of the Qur'an "Is Allah no sufficient for his servant?". If you believe in such a wrathful God that he could not forgive mankind without first demanding a human sacrifice, I don't know what to say to you. God has provided man with prayer and understanding so that he can ask forgiveness himself for his sins. It is only in this way, through sin and asking forgiveness form God, that a true, living, and ever increasing connection can be formed between a believer and God. How can a man ever learn to walk if someone is forced to carry him his whole life? He only weakens himself who accepts being carried.
And by what do you mean false in every important aspect. Christianity, in it's earliest, purest form, was a noble revival of judaism that taught Jews of old, who had become hard hearted, that God meant for them to be tender hearted. This is the true, beautiful teaching of what is now known as Christianity, not the deifying of Jesus.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
You find it hard to believe God would "lower himself" by becoming a human, but it's easy to believe God sends human messengers and prophets to speak for God and spread God's teachings?
In a word, Yes
. God has granted mankind the faculties to attain extremely high levels of spirituality and closeness to him. Don't you think that if he thought it fit to give "regular" humans such a gift of closeness to him that they could receive revelation, that these same people would not be fit to convey this revelation to his people?
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
I think that if it's not far-fetched to believe that God uses spokespeople and agents, it's also not far-fetched to think that God might decide to incarnate as a human. One doesn't seem more believable than the other to me. Both are equally suspect, from my perspective.
Perhaps it's because I am a Muslim, and believe absolutely in the Unity of God. I don't know though...I am also a firm believer of learning from the past. For millenia before Jesus, God deemed it fit to convey his word through the mouths of his prophet, and also after Jesus through the Holy Prophet. Prophets aside, God also grants true dreams and limited revelation on his true believers who are not prophets. Jesus here would seem to be the exception. Why would God suddenly feel the need to "come down" himself and spread His word through the body of a human? There was no precedent at any time in the past for such a thing in all the history of Judaism and earlier religions.
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
So some people claim. That's another thread though. I didn't really intend to derail this into a prophets discussion. It just struck me as odd that one scenario is hard to believe but the other isn't. Carry on!
Because the Bible, quite clearly, states there is only one begotten Son.
Please quote this phrase of the bible, that apparently says that all other references to other "Sons of God" are not literal and is only literal in the application of Jesus Christ.
Hope
Princesinha
There's a great deal of difference between being called a son of God, and the Son of God. Amazing how simply changing the article in front changes the entire meaning.
A son, implies one among many. It implies someone non-specifically. The son, on the other hand, implies there is only one, a specific one.
Just a simple English grammar lesson. Hope it helps.
A son, implies one among many. It implies someone non-specifically. The son, on the other hand, implies there is only one, a specific one.
Just a simple English grammar lesson.
Hope it helps.
Yeh true as there is just One Good....anymore then that would imply limitation, as a single point is inevitable of where reality came from....
The letter to the Corinthians was a letter to correct wrong beliefs as is a lot of Pauls writings. If Paul was the one that initiated this then he would have a hard time trying to undo what he started.
Besides, why do you think it would of made it easier for them (the pagans) to understand? I pretty sure that you would find that they would of understood the teaching of one God a lot better than Paul creating a 'multi-form' God. "Pagans" as you call them at the time knew what one God was as they had them, but just had many of them for each area of life.
Your logic used above also has a flaw. Christ was the one that taught God was God and the Father. This according to your logic means that Chirst was the one that initiated the belief that God has many forms, which then would imply that Christ and not Paul was the one that made the "first step".
In regards to the term begotten, it is used in John 3:16. This term is given to Christ and Christ alone and is what distinguishes him from the other sons of God. The term implies that Christ is eternal and has always been. He was there from the begining of creation.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son...
Jesus is the only begotten son of God...
Mic 6:5-8
(5) O my people, remember now what Balak king of Moab consulted, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him from ****tim unto Gilgal; that ye may know the righteousness of the LORD.
(6) Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
(7) Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
(8) He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God!
Rev 2:14-17
(14) But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
(15) So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of (the Gospel of John) Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
(16) Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
yes ,Jesus was the only one created by Jehovah alone , everything else created was through this first-born son (Jesus)....Jesus had a pre-human life in heaven before he was sent to the earth by his father Jehovah , he was the only one created by Jehovah alone . thats what ONLY-BEGOTTEN means . he is also known as the first-born of creation by God
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
You're right that this is almost certainly a later interpolation (though there is some internal grammatical evidence that argues against that view) or at least a reading found only in a tiny minority of manuscripts (certainly several early Fathers are silent on the Johannine comma when it would have bolstered their position to quote it) but your dates are way out.
The earliest known use of the comma is in a Latin text called Liber Apologeticus, which dates from 4th century. It was certainly known in the west long before the schism and it appears to have been known in the east also as no eastern writer moving west ever criticised it (the most notable probably being St. John Cassian). Admittedly such absence of evidence mitigating againts the comma is merely suggestive rather than proving anything as such with regards to th non-Latin usage of the comma, but whether or not it was found so early in Greek manuscripts, it is undoubtedly true that its presence in Latin manuscripts can be dated to 4th century.
James
Sorry and thanks James, I remembered that it was an interpolation and did a rather quick internet investigation
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
...I don't get what your trying to say
Exactly! In Gen. 2, God came down and formed humanity from the dirt -- "getting dirty," as it were, just to create us. In the parable of the leaven, Jesus says that the kingdom of God is like leaven that a woman took and mixed into a lump of dough until the entire lump was leavened. Leaven is not like our yeast. Leaven is poison -- it's dirty. And who mixed it in? A woman who was not ritually "clean" in the Hebrew faith. So God's kingdom "gets dirty" in order to draw all humanity in.
The very act of God becoming incarnate -- becoming human -- is what reconciled us to God. We could not fully approach God, but God could fully approach us, so that's what God did, just because God loves us so.
Jesus was not a prophet, but a teacher-- a rabbi. Jesus did much more than simply act as God's mouthpiece. Jesus acted as the exemplar for all humanity -- showed us that, as he is the Son of God, we, also, are sons and daughters of God. Jesus acted as a bringer of ultimate justice, as a creator of a new humanity, and as a messiah -- a savior of humanity.
Humanity need much more than simply teaching. Humanity needed a God that was immanent as well as transcendent.