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Jesus is God?

FFH

Veteran Member
'Jehovah is God the Son (Christ)
Elohim is God the Father.'

You either have two Gods, or you have the Son being his own Father.

Please explain this impossibility. Backed up with scripture.
We can become gods, but we can never be God our Father or his Son Jesus Christ, who is God the Son and God of the Old Testament.

Jesus Christ is the one who spoke with Moses, and gave him the ten commandments, not God the Father. God the Father directs Jesus Christ in all things pertaining to this earth.

When God the Father appeared to Joseph Smith, he said, "This is my beloved Son, hear him".

God the Father has turned all things pertaining to this earth over to Jesus Christ, who acts in the name of God the Father, just as we act in the name of Jesus Christ when we perform any sacred saving ordinance, like baptism.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
'Jehovah is God the Son (Christ)
Elohim is God the Father.'

You either have two Gods, or you have the Son being his own Father.

Please explain this impossibility. Backed up with scripture.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

In the beginning there was Jesus, and He was with God, and He was himself God. He was not His own Father because He and His Father were separate beings. In the New Testament, they are both spoken of as God. God is a title we use to denote any or all of the members of the Godhead. "God" is actually a synonymn for "Godhead" and "Godhead" is a collective noun, like team or partnership. Because it is clearly impossible to be with one's self, the Son and the Father, who were with each other in the beginning, are two separate divine beings who share the title of "God."
 

CDB

New Member
'because it is clearly impossible to be with one's self, the Son and the Father, who were with each other in the beginning, are two separate divine beings who share the title of "God."'

So you have two Gods! Do you believe there are two Gods?

Perhaps John 1 doesn't mean what you think it means, or scripture is contradicting itself.

' When God the Father appeared to Joseph Smith, he said, "This is my beloved Son, hear him".'

Joseph Smith says he saw God - impossible, because:
John 1:18 (King James Version) 'No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.'

A Mormon has told me categorically that the Book of Moroni and the Bible absolutely match, but there appears to be an error somewhere.
 

CDB

New Member
'John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.'

It says point blank that God is the WORD.
And since you cannot see God, you behold his glory through the only begotten of the Father.
That's why Jesus said: 'if you've seen me you've seen the Father'.

At the same time the Son IS God made flesh, because he is the express (or complete) image of God's person:

Hebrews 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high'

If a woman could have children without a sperm from a man, then her children would be exact genetic replicas of herself.
So it is with God. God made an exact replica of himself.

The Son looks EXACTLY like God, because he has no mother, only a Father - God the Father. The BIG difference between them is in John 5:26:


'For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself'.

The Father has LIFE (the source of ALL Life) and HE gives to the Son to have his OWN life.



Also notice the Bible never calls him 'God the Son': it's ALWAYS 'Son of God'.

Even the devils recognised him as Son of God in the wilderness! And Satan is an EXPERT on the scriptures:

Matthew 4:3

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Luke 4:41
And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
The word in Greek is "Logos" which means the creative word. God was single and alone, with the desire to create. The "Word" was "BE" and all that is was made "Flesh" or "Material". The stars were made "Flesh" as was all else that ever was.

Which fits nicely with the concept of the "Bang".

Regards,
Scott
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
"Matthew 4:3

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Luke 4:41
And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ."

Note that it does not say Christ was "GOD", but the Son of God, a very brilliant image and symbol.

I would point out that under the concepts of the Old Testament I also, am the son of God.

And note that "Christ" is Greek for "Annointed" or "Messiah".

Regards,
Scott
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Going on biblical text alone It was always stated that God was one and there is no other. God, in the old testament, refutes the new assertions that there were other gods with him.

Isaiah 43:10
......I am He; before Me there was no god formed, neither shall any be after Me

Isaiah 45:5, 6
I am the lord, and there is none else, beside Me there is no god.......

.......there is none beside Me; I am the lord; and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:21, 22
.......And there is no god else beside me,.......

.......I am god, and there is none else.

There're plenty more verses but I'm quite sure you all are familiar with most of them. So the bible teaches that there is only one god. There are no other gods nor will there be any other gods.

Popeyesyas there is credibility in what you say about (The Word). I've always viewed "the word" as god's command or commandment. It was Yeshua who said that he had given them God's word which was not of this world. He was not talking about himself.

John 17:14
I have given them your word; and the world has hated them (God's word) because they (God's word - not Yeshua or Yeshua's word) are not of the world, even as I (Yeshua) am not of the world.

To view who Yeshua was in relation to God one only has to look to his prayer to his god in all of John chapter 17. One thing is quite clear that we find throughout the book of John and that is Yeshua informs us that in heaven he is separate, he had his own will, he was taught by his god, he was given a task (to deliver the word of God), he was sent (which is constantly expressed by Yeshua), he was "commanded" what he should say and once he had completed the task God gave him he informed God that god's will was done.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
'because it is clearly impossible to be with one's self, the Son and the Father, who were with each other in the beginning, are two separate divine beings who share the title of "God."'

So you have two Gods! Do you believe there are two Gods?
Why would you quote me and then ask me the same question all over again? If you can't read and understand a straightforward answer, there is little point in my repeating it.

Perhaps John 1 doesn't mean what you think it means, or scripture is contradicting itself.
Perhaps you're the one who's confused.

' When God the Father appeared to Joseph Smith, he said, "This is my beloved Son, hear him".'

Joseph Smith says he saw God - impossible, because:
John 1:18 (King James Version) 'No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.'
When was John written? When was Joseph Smith's First Vision? Problem solved. No contradiction.

A Mormon has told me categorically that the Book of Moroni and the Bible absolutely match, but there appears to be an error somewhere.
The Book of Moroni? You lost me. What do you believe the Book of Moroni says that contradicts what the Bible says?
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
Is the world at peace right now? Has it ever been since the coming of Jesus? There are many reasons Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah. I'm not going to go into all of them now but I will make a couple points. I think the biggest one is that the messiach will mark the coming of Ein Sof, the healing of the world, where nation shall not fight against nation, swords shall be beaten into plowshares, etc.

Another sticking point is the whole idea of the divinity of jesus and the necessity to believe in him as such to be 'saved' from some kind of hell. Personally, that whole concept does not make much sense to me. Judaism does not compel any particular belief in the hopes of future reward. I try to do good for the sake of bringing myself closer to HaShem in this life, to do my part in making this world a better place.

I do not deny that Jesus was not a good person, and I could possibly be convinced of his prophethood, but I can't be convinced in his divinity or his claims to being messiach.

goodjewishboy,
The Jews were in the most favored position possible. They were in a covenant relationship with God. Every person born into the Jewish nation was automatically one of God's chosen people.
Throughout the Hebrew Scriptures there were many prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah, dozens, in fact, Deut 18:15,18, Isa 7:14, 9:6,7,11:1-9, and many in Psalms. At the time Jesus came to be baptized the people were waiting for the Messiah,because they had discerned the time was right from reading Daniel's prophecy at Dan 9:24-27, Luke 3:15.
Several times it is recorded that on the testimony of two or three every matter would be decided, Deut 17:6,19:15.
All the men that wrote the Greek scriptures were Jews, many more than what is required to decide a matter. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Jude, were all Jews. Why do you not obey your own laws, and at least look into whether God sent His son to earth as the Messiah. If Jesus was not the Messiah, when do you expect him to come???
Mathematicians have put the odds of Jesus fulfilling ten of the prophecies recorded. The odds were astronomical. The odds of a man fulfilling the prophecies Jesus fulfilled are impossible.
How could a man determine before birth where he would be born, Bethlehem,when he would be born, and be born to a virgin, Isa 7:14, Matt 1:23.
Jesus himself said; If he had not done things that no one else had done, the Jews would have an excuse, John 15:22-24.
It would be very wise on the part of all Jews to look into Jesus' credentials, because the Bible says that God has given ONE NAME to men, by which they MUST get saved, Acts 4:12.
The Bible says that ONLY by Jesus' sacrifice can be saved from his sins. This means that no Jew has a chance to be forgiven of their sins, because they do not believe that Jesus was the Christ, Matt 20:28, Acts 13:38,39.
The Bible makes the point that God Himself stepped in to show that Jesus was His son, by giving Jesus ability to do powerful works, as healing, bringing back from the dead, Acts 2:22. Jesus himself was resurrected from the dead, and this is testified to by many more Jews than the requirement of two or three, as stipulated by the Mosaic Law, that you say you follow.
When something as important as everlasting life or everlasting death is at stake, it is very wise to look into the Bible to make sure, as the Bible itself says, 1Thes 5:21, Phil 1:10.
 

Michel07

Active Member
'Jehovah is God the Son (Christ)
Elohim is God the Father.'

You either have two Gods, or you have the Son being his own Father.

Please explain this impossibility. Backed up with scripture.

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things came to be through him
and without him nothing came
To be.
What came to be through him was
life,
and this life was the light of
the human race;
the light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness has not
overcome it. John 1,1-5

And , the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling place among us,
and we saw his glory,
and the glory as the Father's only Son,
full of grace and truth. John 1, 14

Jesus revealed himself to his disciples and the text does indicate ,he to be one, with the Father
there are good reasons why we talk about mysteries in the Christian faith and this is not the only one.
To think we should be able to understand everything about God is arrogant of us since we don't even understand
everything He created.How much more complex must the Creator be. Mindblowing I'd say. I'm just enormously
grateful for His personal side which allows us to have a relationship with Him.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
In the beginning was the Word,

Jesus revealed himself to his disciples and the text does indicate ,he to be one, with the Father

So far I'm with you. This is confirmed in John 17:21,22 and 23

there are good reasons why we talk about mysteries in the Christian faith and this is not the only one.

I really haven't seen any mysteries throughout the four gospels. Yeshua, to me, made his mission and position quite clear. It really isn't hard to follow or understand.
 

Michel07

Active Member
So far I'm with you. This is confirmed in John 17:21,22 and 23



I really haven't seen any mysteries throughout the four gospels. Yeshua, to me, made his mission and position quite clear. It really isn't hard to follow or understand.

I was only responding to the " impossibility" of two beings in one and of course in my faith it is three. The Trinity.
 

CDB

New Member
'Jesus revealed himself to his disciples and the text does indicate, he to be one, with the Father...
I was only responding to the " impossibility" of two beings in one and of course in my faith it is three. The Trinity.'

Michel07, If God really is three beings in one, why would he say:

Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me

andDeuteronomy 6:4


Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Notice clearly that there is no 'WE'! There is only ONE God and he is ONE being, not three.

Can't find 'we are thy God' in the Bible anywhere...:sorry1:

The Son of God is NOT God the Son!



And have you stopped to think that since God cannot die, and if Jesus is supposed to be 'God the Son', then entire passages of the New Testament are completely false? :shrug:
 

kai

ragamuffin
'Jesus revealed himself to his disciples and the text does indicate, he to be one, with the Father...
I was only responding to the " impossibility" of two beings in one and of course in my faith it is three. The Trinity.'

Michel07, If God really is three beings in one, why would he say:

Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me

andDeuteronomy 6:4


Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Notice clearly that there is no 'WE'! There is only ONE God and he is ONE being, not three.

Can't find 'we are thy God' in the Bible anywhere...:sorry1:

The Son of God is NOT God the Son!



And have you stopped to think that since God cannot die, and if Jesus is supposed to be 'God the Son', then entire passages of the New Testament are completely false? :shrug:



this is where christianity steps away from judaism and in fact have a "different" god that may have changed his own essence depending on which faith your in of course
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
this is where christianity steps away from judaism and in fact have a "different" god that may have changed his own essence depending on which faith your in of course

Masn cannot define God. Therefore any attempt to perceive the imperceivable is doomed to failure. God is as He is, not as we attempt to define Him.

Regards,
Scott
 

kai

ragamuffin
Masn cannot define God. Therefore any attempt to perceive the imperceivable is doomed to failure. God is as He is, not as we attempt to define Him.

Regards,
Scott
we dont have to define him ,he defines himself through scripture and revelation. i am of course speaking of Yahweh , the Christgod and Allah
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Could it be that the biblical Jesus was a myth(not a god), the story was taken from preexistent myths that were very similar.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
we dont have to define him ,he defines himself through scripture and revelation. i am of course speaking of Yahweh , the Christgod and Allah

No, He does not describe Himself, the Prophet speaks His Revelation which is limited in its ability to define the indefinable. To assume that language can define the indefinable is not reasonable.

Regards,
Scott
 

kai

ragamuffin
Could it be that the biblical Jesus was a myth(not a god), the story was taken from preexistent myths that were very similar.
a myth it may be but for millions it is an unalterable truth and a way of life and death
 
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