Jesus himself denies the Trinity?

[Halcyon]

This is pretty pointess as most Christians don't accept the Gospel of Thomas, since statements like the one i will show you disagree with Church doctrine.
However, the books of the NT were chosen by men, remember that...

(30) Yeshua said, "Where there are three gods, they are gods. Where there are two or one, I am with him."
Translated by Thomas O. Lambdin (from Coptic)

(30) Jesus said "Where there are three, they are without God, and where there is only one, I say, I am with that one."
Translated by Marvin Meyer (from Greek)

These are different translations of the same saying of Jesus.

Jesus is saying that there is only one God, in one form, and that he is with that one.

Or is he?

 

[Buttons*]

well, you know what i think.... I believe that yeshua is discussing the one-silence- that is within and without. He understood. He had become one, and was within and without the one.

 

[Anastasios]

I am not sure if those people, who were present in time of Jesus, were informed about trinity. Because the idea of trinity is completely a later tradition. It cannot be testified by that time Jesus. So it seems a bit contradictory to me, that he denied something which was known to noone including himself, at that period. I cannot be much optimistic about it, since I need information that trinity was an issue in the days of Jesus in Judaea.
But if it is true, this may be explained with a different explanation to me.
Theory: Jesus survived from Cross and lived long life as I believed and he, while he was away from Judaea, was informed about the deviation, which was done by later authors, i.e. Paulos and he told to people of eastern countries what the truth should be.

well I just tried to find a logical assumption

 

[Halcyon]

Good thinking there Anastasios!

If Jesus really was what he claimed to be though - one with God. He'd be able to think of all the possible interpretations that could arise from his claim, i.e. the trinity idea, and denounce them before they even began.

 

[Buttons*]

Good thinking there Anastasios!

If Jesus really was what he claimed to be though - one with God. He'd be able to think of all the possible interpretations that could arise from his claim, i.e. the trinity idea, and denounce them before they even began.

He did, people just dont read about it. Hence Thomas.

 

[michel]

This is why I far prefer to go 'by the seat of my pants' than by scripture. I know that that approach may shock some; I apologise in advance if it does (I am only saying that is right for me).

Not only do we have what are supposedly God inspired works written by man (perhaps after a period of those words having been recounted from father to son), and here you give a perfect example of the fact that the same verse can be read in two (virtually) opposite ways.

I understand the Trinity (it took me so many attempts to do so:woohoo: )..but the trouble is that I am not conventional in my thinking. I am beginning to think of what I know as "God" in more and more of a Taoist way, and, strangely enough (to me) the Trinity is so much easier to understand........

But heck, I am rambling, and what do I know ?:biglaugh:

 

[Bishka]

And y'all know what the LDS believe. We believe that the trinity isn't true and Jesus is of one mind and purpose with God.

 

[ChrisP]

Add another! Good thing this isn't a poll.

I believe Jesus/Yeshua existed, but not as the bible would have us believe, so only really differing from Becky there. The earlier parts of Thomas about Jesus childhood are a little mindblowing really. esp the smiting/striking down of various types.

 

[Halcyon]

And y'all know what the LDS believe. We believe that the trinity isn't true and Jesus is of one mind and purpose with God.

Unfortunatly i don't think it corroborates the LDS postion becky.

Read it again, Jesus is denouncing the idea of trinity, whether that be 3 in 1 or three separate beings.
To Jesus, there is only One.

I believe Jesus/Yeshua existed, but not as the bible would have us believe, so only really differing from Becky there. The earlier parts of Thomas about Jesus childhood are a little mindblowing really. esp the smiting/striking down of various types.

Indeed. But what you're talking about is not the Gospel of Thomas - a gospel of sayings alone, which may have been written as early as 50 AD.

The book you describe is the "Infancy Gospel of Thomas", a book written in the 6th century.

 

[spookboy0]

I see the Trinity as God the Father is the mind, Christ is body, and the Spirit, well, that's given. Here's why I think that.

It goes with "Let us make him (man) in Our (the Trinity's) image." We have a mind which controls the body and influences the spirit. The body has no choice but the follow the mind.

The Father is in control of the Son (pun intended). The mind is in control of the body. Get it?

Christ (the Son) is filled the Spirit, which is influenced by the Father. Likewise, your body is filled with a spirit which is influenced by the mind.

Father = Mind
Christ = Body
Holy Spirit = Spirit (more commonly know as "aura," to some of the new age thinkers.)


Any questions, feel free to PM.

 

[ChrisP]

Unfortunatly i don't think it corroborates the LDS postion becky.

Read it again, Jesus is denouncing the idea of trinity, whether that be 3 in 1 or three separate beings.
To Jesus, there is only One.


Indeed. But what you're talking about is not the Gospel of Thomas - a gospel of sayings alone, which may have been written as early as 50 AD.

The book you describe is the "Infancy Gospel of Thomas", a book written in the 6th century.

Really? hmm it's being misrepresented on quite a few resources both offline and online then... Is there a resource you find to be more aunthetic/accurately researched.

 

[Squirt]

I see the Trinity as God the Father is the mind, Christ is body, and the Spirit, well, that's given. Here's why I think that.

It goes with "Let us make him (man) in Our (the Trinity's) image." We have a mind which controls the body and influences the spirit. The body has no choice but the follow the mind.

The Father is in control of the Son (pun intended). The mind is in control of the body. Get it?

Christ (the Son) is filled the Spirit, which is influenced by the Father. Likewise, your body is filled with a spirit which is influenced by the mind.

Father = Mind
Christ = Body
Holy Spirit = Spirit (more commonly know as "aura," to some of the new age thinkers.)


Any questions, feel free to PM.

Interesting analogy, but I don't see how it has anything to do with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost being a single, invisible substance.

 

[Buttons*]

Really? hmm it's being misrepresented on quite a few resources both offline and online then... Is there a resource you find to be more aunthetic/accurately researched.

Yes, Chris, an actual book.

 

[ChrisP]

Yes, Chris, an actual book.

You watch it or I"ll get merciless . I've read many an actual book. Actually.

 

[dawny0826]

Father, Son and Holy Ghost...three separate manifestation of ONE GOD.

Christ is/was ONE manifestation of God.

 

[Popeyesays]

Father, Son and Holy Ghost...three separate manifestation of ONE GOD.

Christ is/was ONE manifestation of God.

Dawny,
You know I am going to agree with that statement and mean something entirely different than you. LOL

Regards,
Scott

 

[dawny0826]

Dawny,
You know I am going to agree with that statement and mean something entirely different than you. LOL

Regards,
Scott

Yeah...I know.

 

[Anastasios]

I see the Trinity as God the Father is the mind, Christ is body, and the Spirit, well, that's given. Here's why I think that.

It goes with "Let us make him (man) in Our (the Trinity's) image." We have a mind which controls the body and influences the spirit. The body has no choice but the follow the mind.

The Father is in control of the Son (pun intended). The mind is in control of the body. Get it?

Christ (the Son) is filled the Spirit, which is influenced by the Father. Likewise, your body is filled with a spirit which is influenced by the mind.

Father = Mind
Christ = Body
Holy Spirit = Spirit (more commonly know as "aura," to some of the new age thinkers.)


Any questions, feel free to PM.

I don't think that you really need to take the God apart, in order to understand its existence and manifestation. it is the most nonsense thing to give a shape and flesh to God.
If God is one, why are his parts in different places?
If you start to describe god in different beings, you can never stop. Where or in which one of it is the god's wisdom manifested?
Why are you trying to make god like human nature, by giving mind, Body and Spirit?
How do you know what nature God has?
What was God before Jesus? Hasn't he ever manifested himself? couldn't people understood his existence? Were the people wrong by believing God out of trinity thousands of year and God didn't warn them? What will be then after Jesus, how will god manifest himself for generations after Jesus?
If it is done only in times of Jesus and by Jesus, it is a great injustice of God to humankind.
I can not imagine such a strange being, it is possible only in Greek and Roman Mythology, like Chimaera that has three different beings in his body (even this one was not separated), Hercules as the son of God, Zeus and Io they had a sexual intercourse as one is god another is mortal etc (I can find hundreds of sample)... That is why prophets always dictated there is only one god as a whole not aparted in order to distinguish him from the pagan understanding of God. God is an immortal being who belongs to everybody, regardless what religion people have. It is inside of us. And we are to find him, by fallowing the path of Jesus or other prophets. That is quite simple, no need to make it such a complicated issue. There is certainly no need to break apart him, in order to reach or understand him. The manifestations of God can be seen everywhere in this earth for the righteous and rational humans. It would be very insensible for God to select such a weird way to manifest himself. It is not wise way, I should say.

 

[Halcyon]

Interesting analogy, but I don't see how it has anything to do with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost being a single, invisible substance.

Father, Son and Holy Ghost...three separate manifestation of ONE GOD.

Christ is/was ONE manifestation of God.

Is anyone actually reading the words of Jesus in the OP?

 

[Halcyon]

Really? hmm it's being misrepresented on quite a few resources both offline and online then... Is there a resource you find to be more aunthetic/accurately researched.

There are several Thomas books that I know of. I don't know if the books you've read have clumped them all into one?

The Gospel of Thomas that is a saying gospel is the oldest of them. The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is probably amongst the latter written. Probably written to satiate a population hungry for new Christian mythology, the earliest manuscript we have is from the 6th century - the infancy gospels were popular during the middle ages.

The source i first looked at when replying to your original post was www.gnosis.org. A Gnostic organisation whom i trust to be accurate in their researches.
http://www.gnosis.org/thomasbook/ch29.html

Other online sources that i looked at seem to corroborate them (including good 'ole wiki );
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancythomas.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas

That of any help?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas