Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

[Trailblazer]

Jesus

How is this verse about the resurrection of Jesus?

1 Thessalonians 4:17, KJV: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[samtonga43]

"justification by faith alone" might be the central tenet of Christianity but it is not what Jesus taught.

It certainly is. You obviously don't know as much about Christianity as you think you do.
Wait! Surely you cannot mean that because Jesus did not stand up and say, "I will now speak of Justification by Faith" He did not preach and teach Justification by Faith?

 

[samtonga43]

I dunno, that's why I asked.

Really? This is a discussion about religious faith, and you don't know what the word 'Resurrection' in that context?

Are you feeling OK?

 

[Trailblazer]

It certainly is. You obviously don't know as much about Christianity as you think you do.
Wait! Surely you cannot mean that because Jesus did not stand up and say, "I will now speak of Justification by Faith" He did not preach and teach Justification by Faith?

What is Justification by Faith?

Justification, in Christian theology, either (1) the act by which God moves a willing person from the state of sin (injustice) to the state of grace (justice); (2) the change in a person’s condition moving from a state of sin to a state of righteousness; or (3) especially in Protestantism, the act of acquittal whereby God gives contrite sinners the status of the righteous.

Justification | Christianity

Justification is not from Jesus, it is ALL from Paul . You should at least know where your beliefs come from.

Justification by Faith alone? Hardly. Not according to Jesus.

Matthew 25:35-45 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

* * * * * * * * * *

Please show me any verses where Jesus speaks of Justification at all. Now's your chance.

 

[Trailblazer]

Really? This is a discussion about religious faith, and you don't know what the word 'Resurrection' in that context?

Are you feeling OK?

I know what the resurrection is supposed to be but not in the context of the verse below. Please explain how this verse is about the resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:17, KJV: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Truthseeker]

Wikipedia? Are you serious?

As far as I can tell, Wikipedia is a source that is a source that demands citing references below to support their point of view, so I have some trust in it. It has seemed fair to me in the past. Sorry you don't trust it. It seems better than referencing many conflicting sources or one source that reports one point of view which can't be trusted very far, I don't think.

Why don't you look, the article presents a number of points of view. What have you got to lose?

 

[Truthseeker]

Thanks Duane. I saw that and I saved your post for further reference. I guess the Christians won't be meeting Jesus in the air after all.

1 Thessalonians 4:17, KJV: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Ist Thessalonians is considered an authentic epistle by Paul. This is interpreted symbolically by Baha'is. I won't go into that now. It's an interpretation by fallible Baha'is. Personally, I think that at times Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but not always. He was fallible.

 

[MonkeyFire]

How is this verse about the resurrection of Jesus?

1 Thessalonians 4:17, KJV: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus returned to earth when he was resurrected after being crucified.

 

[samtonga43]

Ist Thessalonians is considered an authentic epistle by Paul. This is interpreted symbolically by Baha'is. I won't go into that now. It's an interpretation by fallible Baha'is. Personally, I think that at times Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but not always. He was fallible.

As are all Christians.

 

[samtonga43]

I know what the resurrection is supposed to be but not in the context of the verse below. Please explain how this verse is about the resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:17, KJV: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You haven't heard of the resurrection of believers?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus returned to earth when he was resurrected after being crucified.

I always thought that verse was supposed to be about the return of Christ, when Christians will rise from their graves and meet Jesus in the air.

 

[Trailblazer]

You haven't heard of the resurrection of believers?

Of course I have heard of it. I won't comment on it though.

 

[samtonga43]

Please show me any verses where Jesus speaks of Justification at all. Now's your chance.

Certainly.
The Pharisee and the Tax Collector
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Luke 18:9-14

 

[samtonga43]

Why don't you look, the article presents a number of points of view. What have you got to lose?

Time...

 

[Trailblazer]

Certainly.
The Pharisee and the Tax Collector
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Luke 18:9-14

Try again... This has nothing to do with the Justification by Faith apart from works that the Paul taught.

One is said to be 'justified by faith apart from works of the Law' (Romans 3:28). ... He further states that those who are justified cannot be separated from the love of Christ (Romans 8:33–39).

Justification (theology) - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

Time...

And time is more important than your eternal life?

 

[Truthseeker]

Time...

It would certainly waste time to hear another point of view when your mind is already made up.

 

[Trailblazer]

Christ is the Light of the world, whatever the circumstances. He enables us to see all the light we need. But some people close their eyes and refuse to see.

Baha’u’llah is the Light of the world, whatever the circumstances. He enables us to see all the light we need. But some people close their eyes and refuse to see.

Light to the World

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20. Christ IS the ‘eternal essence’ Jesus was personally identical with the eternally pre-existent Son of God. He did not come into existence as a new person way back when, but exists personally as the eternal Son of God.
As John1 says…
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.”

And we know that the Glory of God (Baha’u’llah) has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know the one true God by which the Manifestations of His Divine glory and the Day Springs of eternal holiness have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God.

“Our purpose in revealing these words is to show that the one true God hath, in His all-highest and transcendent station, ever been, and will everlastingly continue to be, exalted above the praise and conception of all else but Him. His creation hath ever existed, and the Manifestations of His Divine glory and the Day Springs of eternal holiness have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God. That the names of some of them are forgotten and the records of their lives lost is to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 174

The world changes, but people do not. When we need refreshment we will find it where it always was, and always will be, in God’s Word. God’s truth never needs to be ‘refreshed’. And we don’t need to be refreshed so much as we need to turn to Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, the Eternal Son of God. His name is not Bahá’u’lláh. It is Jesus who has the name above all names: “Therefore God exalted Jesus to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Philippians 2:9–11

The world and people have changed since the days of Jesus and the Dispensation of Jesus has been unconditionally abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. In shorthand that means that means that the divine ordering of the affairs of the world are now through Baha’u’llah, by an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.

Jesus Christ is not Lord, to the glory of God the Father, the Glory of God is Baha’u’llah.

What does Baha u LLAH mean in English?

Glory of God

Bahá'u'lláh, also spelled Bahaullah, which means "Glory of God", was a Persian nobleman who founded the religion known as the Bahá'í Faith.
Bahá'u'lláh - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baha’u’llah is the Greatest Name and above all other names.

“The Greatest Name is the Name of Bahá’u’lláh. “Yá Bahá’u’l-Abhá” is an invocation meaning: “O Thou Glory of Glories!”. “Alláh-u-Abhá” is a greeting which means: “God the All-Glorious”. Both refer to Bahá’u’lláh. By Greatest Name is meant that Bahá’u’lláh has appeared in God’s Greatest Name, in other words, that He is the supreme Manifestation of God.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 180

The Revelation of Baha’u’llah is the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must be referred, the Book that stands amongst them all transcendent and supreme.

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

Jesus WAS and IS the Light of the world, eternally. Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” John 8:12

Jesus WAS the Light of the world, but now Baha’u’llah IS the Light of the world.

“One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 72

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus provides the answer to our every need. When we are liberated from the darkness of ignorance and given the light of true understanding, the peace and tranquility of mankind will follow. We need nothing else and no one else, especially B.s enormous ego.

Peace and tranquility will only follow because of the Coming of Baha’u’llah, who was the Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Jesus did not and will not fulfill this prophecy because Jesus said that His work was finished in this world and He was no more in this world.

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30, John 18:36, John 18:37)

About that big ego…

“Incline your ears to the counsels which this Servant giveth you for the sake of God. He, verily, asketh no recompense from you and is resigned to what God hath ordained for Him, and is entirely submissive to God’s Will.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 127

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures. Your evil doings can never harm Us, neither can your good works profit Us. We summon you wholly for the sake of God. To this every man of understanding and insight will testify.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140

“Say: God is My witness! I have wished nothing whatever for Myself. What I have wished is the victory of God and the triumph of His Cause. He is Himself a sufficient witness between you and Me. Were ye to cleanse your eyes, ye would readily perceive how My deeds testify to the truth of My words, how My words are a guide to My deeds.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 256-257

“I have offered up My soul and My body as a sacrifice for God, the Lord of all worlds. Whoso hath known God shall know none but Him, and he that feareth God shall be afraid of no one except Him, though the powers of the whole earth rise up and be arrayed against him. I speak naught except at His bidding, and follow not, through the power of God and His might, except His truth. He, verily, shall recompense the truthful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 126

Christ IS the foundation, and the Holy Spirit of God IS He who helps God’s people to finish the building.

There would have been no building if Baha’u’llah had not come to earth. The Holy Spirit does not do jack squat unless it is sent by God to a Messenger of God who brings it to humanity.

Oh, really, Tb! You’re reading into the text again; you must learn to read in context. The ‘other sheep’ is nothing to do with B. The other sheep are the Gentiles. Why not read John 10 in its entirety, preferably from E.S.V.

John 10 English Standard Version

14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Baha’u’llah was the return of the Spirit of Jesus. The ‘other sheep’ are the rest of humanity that Jesus did not bring at His first coming. We know that because there was not one flock in the days of Jesus. It is simple logic.

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85

“WE, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit (Jesus), and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray… Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) verily, standeth before them.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 92

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246

1. Matthew 1:23
2. Mark 2:5-7
3. John 1:1
4. John 5:18
5. John 20:27-29
6. Philippians 2:5-7
7. Colossians 1:15
8. Colossians 2:9
9. 2 Peter 1:1
10. Hebrews 1:3
(Read all in context, of course).
You cannot avoid it, Tb. You can quibble about what these passages might mean, but there is a pattern here of claims about Jesus that could only be true of God.

I will address these verses in another post ~ stay tuned!

I cannot settle for what is less than the Truth which has been shown to me by the Holy Spirit.
ONE Being, THREE Persons.
That Truth is clear to me. You cannot yet see it. Perhaps one day…

I cannot settle for what is less than the Truth which has been shown to me by the Holy Spirit.
ONE Being, undivided.

That Truth is clear to me. You cannot yet see it. Perhaps one day…

Yes, I would if I were you. That’s one heavy burden you’re carrying…

I would rest your case now because trying to prove that Jesus is the all that you claim He was is one heavy burden you’re carrying… You cannot change the Will of an Almighty God, you can only deny it and fight against it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: There are so many reasons that Jesus cannot be God and I already posted some of the many verses to this Christian a few months ago.

Samtonga43 said:

1. Matthew 1:23
2. Mark 2:5-7
3. John 1:1
4. John 5:18
5. John 20:27-29
6. Philippians 2:5-7
7. Colossians 1:15
8. Colossians 2:9
9. 2 Peter 1:1
10. Hebrews 1:3

(Read all in context, of course).

You cannot avoid it, Tb. You can quibble about what these passages might mean, but there is a pattern here of claims about Jesus that could only be true of God.

I guess you really wanted to make a lot of work for me, but you only ended up disproving that Jesus was God.

1. Matthew 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus was “God with us” because He was a Manifestation of God and the Spirit of God with us, but He was not God in the flesh.

“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God. "
Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

2. Mark 2:5-7
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

The scribes were saying that only God can forgive sins so they thought it was blasphemy for Jesus to say that He could forgive sins. That does not mean Jesus was God, not even in the ball park.

3. John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 refers to God, not to Jesus.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Those verses are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made through God since God created the heavens and the earth.

The Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. That is why Colossians 1:15 says “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:” Jesus was a mirror image of God, but an image is not what it reflects.

4. John 5:18
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

The Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God because Jesus said that God was His Father, but being the Son of God does not mean Jesus was God. It means that Jesus is not God.

5. John 20:27-29
27 Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

That is a flimsy attempt to say Jesus was God if I have ever seen one! Just because Thomas said “My Lord and my God” that does not mean Jesus was God! If you cannot figure out why that does not prove anything, then you need a course in logical proofs.

6. Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus was in the “form of God” and that means Jesus was not God, because a form is not what it is a form of.

7. Colossians 1:15
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Jesus was in the “the image of God” and that means Jesus was not God, because an image is not what it is an image of.

8. Colossians 2:9
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

ESV For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

NIV For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

The Bible says that God is sprit so it cannot lives in bodily form! Besides that all of God could not “dwell” in a man!

9. 2 Peter 1:1
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

This is another verse that disproves Jesus being God. It says “God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” It does not say “God our Saviour Jesus Christ.” That shows that God is separate from Jesus, which means Jesus cannot BE God.

10. Hebrews 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Again, if Jesus was “the express image is God” that means Jesus was not God, because an image is not equivalent to what it is an image of.

(Continued on next post)