Jesus - First Born?

[URAVIP2ME]

There is no "him" without context. In the context of David numbering Israel, the Satan was YHWH. In other contexts he was someone else..........

Satan was never YHWH , rather YHWH is the one who sent JOAB to warn David. 1st Chronicles 21:3
Satan provoked David - 1st Chronicles 21:1
David's word prevailed against JOAB, JOAB is the one who YHWH God sent. - 1st Chronicles 21:4
David word was detestable to JOAB who was sent by God YHWH to warn David - 1st Chronicles 21:6 B -7
David would Not listen to JOAB who was God's messenger.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ha ha ha… you are so funny!!!
Satan is not an ArchAngel… His status is HIGHER than ArchAngel…!!! See Ezekiel 28:3-15.
And certainly, C.I.C of the armies of God is not the ultimate Angelic position amongst the heavenly angels.
Please stop trying to create a situation that you cannot justify by reality or scriptural means.

Since when is a cherub higher than The Archangel ______________ 1st Thess. 4:16
As the old adage goes the one who laughs last________________

 

[amazing grace]

Certainly true.


Jesus did not celebrate birthdays… His command is that we commentate HIS DEATH!!

I would think, don't know for certainty, that his parents celebrated his birthday. We know the angels celebrated and sang praising God at his birth and he couldn't have died without first being born!

 

[Ebionite]

Perhaps an English teacher can better explain why the pronoun 'he' in the immediate context is Not God.

It was never about "God".

And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
2 Samuel 24:1, JKV

LORD is a translation of YHWH, but Elohim, not YHWH, is translated as "God'.

The point is that in this context YHWH was angry with Israel and so he made David act against them. By doing this YHWH was acting as the adversary of Israel, and satan means adversary.

 

[Ebionite]

Satan was never YHWH , rather YHWH is the one who sent JOAB to warn David. 1st Chronicles 21:3

No, only one being caused David to number Israel, and Joab acted on his own volition.

And Joab answered, YHWH make his people an hundred times so many more as they [be]: but, my lord the king, [are] they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he be a cause of trespass to Israel?
1 Chronicles 21:3

 

[blü 2]

God's covenant contract was made for only one nation, the nation of ancient Israel. Jesus fulfilled that contract covenant - Romans 10:4
Their religious ' house of worship ' was abandoned by God as Jesus taught at Matthew 23:35

The gospel of Matthew was written some 55 years after the traditional date of Jesus' death, and its author (in those verses you mention) is simply asserting the superiority of his own religious views to those of Judaism. He doesn't hold back either.

But if there's going to be an end to God's covenant with Judaism, it has to be found in the Tanakh.

And for Jesus being a messiah, he has to be a Jewish messiah, and ─ not being a civil, military or religious leader of the Jewish people, nor ever anointed by the priesthood ─ he clearly didn't qualify. As for the Jewish authorities, centered in Jerusalem, not recognizing him, why on earth would they think this person they'd never previously heard of, a Passover blow-in from Galilee and the country regions, was anything special?

Nor is there any contemporary evidence that anything of the kind happened.

God used the Roman armies to go up against Un-faithful Jerusalem in the year 70. ( earlier God used the Babylonians )

So the Christians can abandon God's covenant? Really? You're serious?

 

[Soapy]

I would think, don't know for certainty, that his parents celebrated his birthday. We know the angels celebrated and sang praising God at his birth and he couldn't have died without first being born!

I don’t think there’s a single example of a Christian celebrating a birthday … All instances of birthday celebrations in scriptures are shown to be negative events. Google: Bible birthday celebrations… While it certainly was a joy when the coming of the Messiah finally came to fruition, it was, in fact, his DEATH that was the really glory. Why? Because his death IN FULFILMENT of the prophecy was the greater event - which is why Jesus instructed the disciples to commemorate HIS DEATH once a year.

The problem is that too many people have gotten focussed on the celebration of ‘Self’ (which is ‘Birthday’) and you can see where that has gotten us in the world today. In an ‘original’ birthday CHILDREN were given a SMALL gift ONCE A YEAR which amounted to something the child more likely desperately needed. It was more often home made and the material value was minimal. Today….. a birthday meal at Nando’s, a present of over £1000 is not uncommon, and various other lesser things that are of frivolous usage which are promptly discarded soon after the day is over. But worse of all - ADULTS, married couples, parents… craving birthday presents…. What’s that all about? And there’s spin off of Valentine’s Day, Mother’s Day (which has nothing to do with ‘Mothers’ (Female in a household) it’s actually about satellite churches all at the same time worshipping at the MOTHER CHURCH! And what on earth is ‘Fathers day’… A can of beer or a pair of slippers for Dad!! Now we have Pets day presents and … what next!!! When the Tower of Babel falls its floors tumble down one after the other!!!

 

[amazing grace]

I don’t think there’s a single example of a Christian celebrating a birthday … All instances of birthday celebrations in scriptures are shown to be negative events. Google: Bible birthday celebrations… While it certainly was a joy when the coming of the Messiah finally came to fruition, it was, in fact, his DEATH that was the really glory. Why? Because his death IN FULFILMENT of the prophecy was the greater event - which is why Jesus instructed the disciples to commemorate HIS DEATH once a year.

The problem is that too many people have gotten focussed on the celebration of ‘Self’ (which is ‘Birthday’) and you can see where that has gotten us in the world today. In an ‘original’ birthday CHILDREN were given a SMALL gift ONCE A YEAR which amounted to something the child more likely desperately needed. It was more often home made and the material value was minimal. Today….. a birthday meal at Nando’s, a present of over £1000 is not uncommon, and various other lesser things that are of frivolous usage which are promptly discarded soon after the day is over. But worse of all - ADULTS, married couples, parents… craving birthday presents…. What’s that all about? And there’s spin off of Valentine’s Day, Mother’s Day (which has nothing to do with ‘Mothers’ (Female in a household) it’s actually about satellite churches all at the same time worshipping at the MOTHER CHURCH! And what on earth is ‘Fathers day’… A can of beer or a pair of slippers for Dad!! Now we have Pets day presents and … what next!!! When the Tower of Babel falls its floors tumble down one after the other!!!

It's okay - I simply disagree. And I would say that the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ was in reality the glory for that was when he was glorified - when we were assured of our own resurrection and eternal life.

 

[Muffled]

Yes the Word was spirit and became flesh, iow became a man.
NIV Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

So it was through His Son that God made the universe.
This matches John 1:1-3
The Word is the Son and was the Son in the beginning.
NIV John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

I believe John 1 says that the word is God not the word is the son

 

[Muffled]

Can you be more specific? As in - point out what was said that wasn’t scriptural (from or related to the Bible).

This phrase is not in the Bible: The pre human Jesus is called "The Word"

 

[Muffled]

There is a big difference between a thing next to God THAT "became flesh" and a spirit next to God WHO "became flesh".

Jesus' pre-existence is a very important topic to delucidate and understand clearly what was/is his role in the Universe from its very beginning.

I believe there is no "next to God" in the Bible.

 

[blü 2]

God's covenant contract was made for only one nation, the nation of ancient Israel. Jesus fulfilled that contract covenant - Romans 10:4

No, it's not up to the Christians to claim Jesus altered the relationship between the Jewish nation and the Jewish God. That has to come from the Tanakh, and as I keep pointing out, no Jewish citizen would have recognized Jesus as a messiah, simply because he had none of the qualifications of a Jewish messiah.

The Christian God is NOT the Jewish God. The Christian God is triune, for example, thus includes Jesus as God, notwithstanding that all five versions of Jesus in the NT expressly deny that they're God and never claim to be God.

Their religious ' house of worship ' was abandoned by God as Jesus taught at Matthew 23:35.

Matthew again. Half a century after the event about a person he'd never met.

The pattern is set. Once again God will use the political / military to go up against corrupted religion.

So what corrupt religion was WW1 about? WW2? Spell it out for me.

 

[amazing grace]

The pre human Jesus is called "The Word" at John 1:1.
All things were brought into existence through the Word (John 1:3) just as the world/universe was made through the Son. (Heb 1:2)
So the Word is the pre human Son of God.

The above is what Brian2 said. (Post #626)

The word - God's word - when God spoke . . . all things were brought into existence . . . with the purpose in mind, for this reason, love, service, obedience - that failed because man sinned against God - therefore when the fulness of time came, God sent his Son, his only begotten So, via a miraculous conception. The world (aion - the age, a period of time, there is a different word for the inhabited world) that was made through the Son is the age after the resurrection. That is scriptural.

The above was my response to Brian2. (Post #632)

I believe that is false. It does not state that. It states the Word became flesh. John 1:14.

Your response to Brian2. (Post #727)

I believe I haven't seen such a verse.

Your response to what I said. (Second part of Post #727) To which I asked:

Can you be more specific? As in - point out what was said that wasn’t scriptural (from or related to the Bible).

(Post #730) To which you responded:

This phrase is not in the Bible: The pre human Jesus is called "The Word"

(Post #810) I never said "The pre human Jesus is called "The Word". So in the context of what I said - what were you speaking about when you said: "I believe I haven't seen such a verse."

It doesn't help to come into the conversations every 5-10 days and insert your thoughts - it would help to converse more often and make it easier to follow the conversations. Thanks.

 

[Soapy]

It's okay - I simply disagree. And I would say that the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ was in reality the glory for that was when he was glorified - when we were assured of our own resurrection and eternal life.

No, you have it wrong AGAIN!!

Jesus’ death was the pain and the glory, for by dying Jesus PAID THE PENALTY for the sin of Adam that had condemned ALL MANKIND to eternal death - REGARDLESS of their holiness.

Jesus being raised up, glorified, and sat next to God, was JESUS’ personal glory…

Think of a Hero who SAVES THE PEOPLE!!!
Then he is granted the golden award for his deed!

There are two situations at hand:

1. The first being the PEOPLE’s salvation…
2. Then the Hero’s Glory

 

[Soapy]

I believe there is no "next to God" in the Bible.

‘After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.’ (Heb 1:3)

The ‘Majesty in Heaven’ is Almighty God!!
The ‘right hand of …’ means ‘Next to…’

‘Next to …’ in SPIRITUAL terms is not a PHYSICAL PLACEMENT. It refers to [a lower position] in order of power and ability.

Jesus being, ‘Next to God’ only means that Jesus has the second place in power and ability. The one he sits subordinate to is the Almighty Power entity.

 

[Brian2]

‘After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.’ (Heb 1:3)

The ‘Majesty in Heaven’ is Almighty God!!

And the name He inherited is His Father's name, the name above all names, and we all will bow our knee to Him and maybe it will be only then that some of us realise we are worshipping Jesus.
Heb 1: 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Phil 2:9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,…

Even when Jesus was walking the earth He said that everything that the Father has belongs to Him (Jesus).(John 16:15) That would include the name of God and the glory of God and the power of God and the throne of God and etc etc They all belong to Jesus.

 

[amazing grace]

No, you have it wrong AGAIN!!

Jesus’ death was the pain and the glory, for by dying Jesus PAID THE PENALTY for the sin of Adam that had condemned ALL MANKIND to eternal death - REGARDLESS of their holiness.

Jesus being raised up, glorified, and sat next to God, was JESUS’ personal glory…

Think of a Hero who SAVES THE PEOPLE!!!
Then he is granted the golden award for his deed!

There are two situations at hand:

1. The first being the PEOPLE’s salvation…
2. Then the Hero’s Glory

Having anything "wrong" is just your opinion because nothing I said was "wrong".

 

[Brian2]

It was all things (except his actual death) had been accomplished (Delivering the testimony God sent him to deliver) did Jesus say that all things had been DELIVERED INTO HIS HANDS.

• “For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them.” (John 17:8)

And, of course, that is how things are:
First you accept the deed;

then you pursue the deed;​

next you accomplish the deed;​

THEN YOU RECEIVE the REWARD​

for accomplishing the deed​

you pursued​

which you accepted…

• “The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor.” (Matthew 11:5)

…

• “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” (Matthew 11:27)
• “The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.” (John 3:35)

…

• “He [Jesus] will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” (Luke 1:32-33)

‘Will … Will … Will… Will…’ !

And your point it?

 

[Bthoth]

In trinitarian belief, Jesus Christ was born as the first of all creation.

Yet, in the same trinitarian belief, Jesus Christ was never born because he is God, who is not a creation!

Are these two contradictory claims from one belief system?

Interesting perspective.

But line #2, stands out because the truth is, mankind created all of the gods. Many have a hard time accepting that but it's true.

It's very similar to accepting a 'king' (a learned belief)

 

[Bthoth]

It was all things (except his actual death) had been accomplished (Delivering the testimony God sent him to deliver) did Jesus say that all things had been DELIVERED INTO HIS HANDS.

• “For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them.” (John 17:8)

And, of course, that is how things are:
First you accept the deed;

then you pursue the deed;​

next you accomplish the deed;​

THEN YOU RECEIVE the REWARD​

for accomplishing the deed​

you pursued​

which you accepted…

• “The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor.” (Matthew 11:5)

…

• “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” (Matthew 11:27)
• “The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.” (John 3:35)

…

• “He [Jesus] will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” (Luke 1:32-33)

‘Will … Will … Will… Will…’ !

Cute...... Lots of prophetic claims that never happened. Jesus never had 'everything' in his hands. Specifically, he never had a thrown and the reign over jacob's descendants is funny in itself. I almost choked up my coffee on that line.

Good morning Soapy