Jesus - First Born?

[Brian2]

Let me ask you - in truth I was going to ask this question to @Amazing Angel…( ooh, I capitalised the ‘a’ in amazing angel where it wasn’t written so… am I referring to some other poster??):

Well it could be another poster since the name it @amazing grace.

• How many Souls were saved in the Ark that Noah built?
• How many People / Persons were saved in the Ark that Noah built?

Were the number of Souls saved the same as the number of Persons / People?

Were the saved Souls the same Persons / People?

The ancients referred to ‘the self’, ‘the individual’, as ‘the Soul’. Since 1100AD the same was called ‘Person’ and ‘People’.
From Greek into Latin: Persona meaning ‘A human Being’ into English: a Person.

There were 8 persons, humans, but counting the animals also as souls, there were many souls than 8.

 

[Brian2]

Sheesh! Would it had been better if I had said the opposite of life is death, as in no longer living which includes no breath life, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom. Now, according to the definition of spirit and soul in relation to man, in death the body is no longer animated; the complete man of body and soul and spirit is dead.

True, in death the body is no longer animated, it is a dead soul, it has no breathe of life. No life functions are present in the dead body.
The spirit which God gave, goes back to God.
A definition of soul which you did not highlight is the inner being of man.
and the man became a living soul. (nepash - 1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion; A. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man; B. living being, C. living being (with life in the blood), D. the man himself, self, person or individual, E. seat of the appetites, F. seat of emotions and passions)
This "inner being of man" survives the death of the body and goes to hades where the thought it had are gone (but this does not mean that it cannot think) it does not know what is happening in the land of the living and does not have knowledge (wisdom) as those alive have. Yet there it is, a dormant/sleeping spirit that can be stirred to consciousness at times it seems. I see that in the witch of Endor and the lament to the King of Babylon and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man etc. Why have conscious dead people if that does not happen?

You said: "At the death of our body our spirit, life force, goes back to God who gave it." I agree. And without the spirit the body is dead - a dead soul, a dead body no more life until the resurrection when God again breathes life into us. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead. (James 2:26)
A dead body (person) is considered a dead soul - Whoever touches the dead body (Hebrew nephesh = soul) of any person (man) shall be unclean seven days. [Numbers 19:11] (also in other verses)

Yes a dead body is considered a dead soul, but that does not mean that the body is the soul.
Again I go to that use of "soul" above, "the inner being of man".

Paul's desire was to be with Christ. He was looking forward to the resurrection when he would be with Christ which would be far better than life or death.
When we depart (die), no matter the length of time, our next waking thought or existence will be with Christ.

Paul said that his death meant being with the Lord.
Eph 4:7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,
“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”
This, to me, means that He took many of those inprisoned in the place of the dead, hades, with Him when He rose and went back to heaven.
Those in Christ also go to be with the Lord at death imo.
These are the ones that God brings back with Christ when He returns, so that they can be resurrected into their immortal resurrection bodies.
1Thess 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. 15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.…

 

[Brian2]

So it all started out with the death of the soul and whether the "soul" died when a person died, i.e. physical death.
How do you see that Romans 5:12 is speaking of "spiritual death" and not "natural dying"? Sin causes our first death, "natural death" and if a person is not saved, it will cause the second death.

Romans 5:11Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

It seems to mean both natural death and spiritual death.
Adam and Eve died spiritually in the garden because they lost their communion with God who is the life of their inner man. Also they were kicked out of the garden and away from access to the tree of life and so they died naturally also.
The Holy Spirit in us, gives our inner man communion with God and eternal life. We are spiritually revived, born again.
The body is redeemed and born again at the resurrection. (Romans 8:23)

 

[Soapy]

Well it could be another poster since the name it @amazing grace.

Ok, you got me there!! In fact I was thinking that no one of humanity should call themselves [an] angel…as that would diminish and belittle the ‘Image of God’ in mankind. (But, of course I was wrongly thinking ‘amazing ANGEL’ instead of ‘amazing GRACE’… funny, I hadn’t got a correction from @amazing grace!!!)

There were 8 persons, humans, but counting the animals also as souls, there were many souls than 8.

I think we need not be pedantic about this… and knowingly doing so shows you are willing to go to any jocular lengths to squirm away from straight answering… this could be detrimental in a serious debate. Luckily we are being lighthearted and thus it was acceptable (in this case!!)

Yes, eight PERSONS…. eight SOULS.

I agree with much that you say on this subject as in ‘The Soul is body and Spirit’).

But then you say some weird stuff that makes me think of ‘95% lie, 5% truth’!!! Do you know what that means???

For instance, you correctly say that at death the body decays to dust and the Spirit goes to rest with God…. Ok, great, agree… then you say, ‘The spirit goes to Gehenna /Hades / Sheol’… Not true…

WHY….. Why… why!!! Why change the truth into a lie????? Is ‘Resting with God’ ‘going down to Gehenna / Hades / Sheol’?

The ancients DID NOT KNOW what happened to a PERSON (a SOUL) after death. They IMAGINED what they heard from tribes and nations they were in and around who were of Pagan beliefs… These Pagan beliefs envisioned a place of torment and discomfort … for whom? The wicked and the dead??? What purpose would there be for ‘being righteous’ if the end was to be everlastingly tormented…??

In our discussion I would urge you to not use these Pagan references and stick to the Christian terms WHICH WE NOW KNOW ARE OUR TRUTH!

Jesus used the great fire outside Jerusalem ONLY TO EMPHASIZE what the final end after the judgement would be like did the wicked: COMPLETE DESTRUCTION which is in BOTH the body AND THE SPIRIT… THE COMPLETE SOUL!!

I don’t think @amazing grace understands ‘Destruction’ as opposed to just ‘Die’ / ‘Killed’ in the body… that the Spirit of a man ‘does not die’ at death of his body but is only RESTING / DORMANT / INERT / SLEEPING in God who created the Spirit of that man. I gave @amazing grace an analogy of a seed, a bulb… but it seems it was ignored since acknowledging the analogy would mean acknowledging he/she was wrong in his/her written claims. I think it’s just a skewed sense of wording and language usage which then leads to confusion over exactly what he/she actually is trying to think…! I see he/she uses a convolute dictionary definition of ‘dead’ as ‘not living’ which then translates as ‘Non-EXISTENT’??? But I ask, how can the spirit sleeping with God be non-existent? So I do the good deed by saying it for him/her: ‘Non-existent IN THE CREATED WORLD - alive with God’. A seed, in winter, is ‘dead above ground but alive, sleeping, resting, dormant, in the soil awaiting the Spring to be regenerated’. But that truth was dashed away… what more can one do for him/her who cannot accept truth?

 

[Soapy]

True, in death the body is no longer animated, it is a dead soul, it has no breathe of life. No life functions are present in the dead body.
The spirit which God gave, goes back to God.
A definition of soul which you did not highlight is the inner being of man.
and the man became a living soul. (nepash - 1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion; A. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man; B. living being, C. living being (with life in the blood), D. the man himself, self, person or individual, E. seat of the appetites, F. seat of emotions and passions)
This "inner being of man" survives the death of the body and goes to hades where the thought it had are gone (but this does not mean that it cannot think) it does not know what is happening in the land of the living and does not have knowledge (wisdom) as those alive have. Yet there it is, a dormant/sleeping spirit that can be stirred to consciousness at times it seems. I see that in the witch of Endor and the lament to the King of Babylon and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man etc. Why have conscious dead people if that does not happen?

I would not say that at death in the body a man becomes a DEAD SOUL… remember that the Soul cannot be DEAD as long as the SPIRIT LIVES… and the Spirit lives until, or only if, it is DESTROYED by God (designated Jesus Christ) who made it. Keep reading Matt 10:28 and seeing the difference between what can be ‘Killed’ and what can be ‘Destroyed’!!!

I would presume a term such as ‘Non-Living Soul’. But then some define ‘non-living’ as ‘Dead’… those who presume BINARY thinking: ‘All not living must be Dead’ and cannot see any intermediate state:

1. Living: Spirit in body, active, energised
2. Non-Living: Spirit out of body, inert, dormant, resting in spiritual sleep
3. Dead: Of the body: Having no existence (see 2. above)
4. DESTROYED: Non-existence of BOTH Spirit and Body

Yes a dead body is considered a dead soul, but that does not mean that the body is the soul.
Again I go to that use of "soul" above, "the inner being of man".

As above… True, the body is not the Soul… the body is just a dust vessel, a vehicle, a container, a repository, FOR the Spirit by which that Spirit is able to ANIMATE and connect and communicate IN THE CREATED WORLD.

Paul said that his death meant being with the Lord.
Eph 4:7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,
“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”
This, to me, means that He took many of those inprisoned in the place of the dead, hades, with Him when He rose and went back to heaven.
Those in Christ also go to be with the Lord at death imo.
These are the ones that God brings back with Christ when He returns, so that they can be resurrected into their immortal resurrection bodies.
1Thess 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. 15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.…

Paul is speaking FUTURE … After the judgement. Yes, he regards the Apostles as ‘Those already judged and await the first resurrection’.

WE WHO ARE NOT THOSE APOSTLES MUST NOT ADOPT PAUL’S FORETHOUGHT else we are in danger of SELF JUDGEMENT… and judgement is the preserve of JESUS CHRIST ALONE!!!

I have had discussions about this ‘Going to Heaven when we die’ … I am left with the mind that there is too much misbelief and too much ‘I am an apostle and going directly to be with Jesus Christ’ delusion.’

What can be difficult to believe and understand:

• We live … some a godly life … some a wicked life
• We die… Our Spirit, whether of godliness or wickedness, goes to rests with God (yeah, I know why many disagree here but truth will draw naysayers!!)
• The dead await the resurrection:
  • The first resurrection is of those whom God ELECTED from the beginning and those subsequent ones afterwards who are called to righteousness through Christ Jesus: THE ELECT. These are ALREADY JUDGED and go to be with Jesus Christ as joint heirs to God - ethereal brothers to Jesus Christ and also be JUDGES with Christ in the SECOND RESURRECTION
• The SECOND resurrection… All the rest of humanity are brought to life along with the demon angels and Satan and the final judgement takes place:
  • Those who are judged as righteous, into PARADISE…..!!!!!
  • Those who are judged as WICKED, to DESTRUCTION…. Annihilation … no more to be recalled to mind… which includes DEATH itself.

Paul, as said, assumes himself as one of the elect (I’m not judging!) and therefore sees himself as pre-judged and will BE WITH CHRIST AT HIS DEATH …meaning at his resurrection at the FIRST TRUMP call!!! He also encourages the other apostles to think the same which is where we see the constant terminology of ‘We will ALL BE CHANGED… in the blink of an eye… we will be caught up with him in the air.. !’.

It can then be seen that Scripture preachers press this point to their congregation AS IF THEY… and the congregation… ARE THE ELECT … because Paul said ‘WE…’

 

[Brian2]

But then you say some weird stuff that makes me think of ‘95% lie, 5% truth’!!! Do you know what that means???

Not lie, maybe error.

For instance, you correctly say that at death the body decays to dust and the Spirit goes to rest with God…. Ok, great, agree… then you say, ‘The spirit goes to Gehenna /Hades / Sheol’… Not true…

WHY….. Why… why!!! Why change the truth into a lie????? Is ‘Resting with God’ ‘going down to Gehenna / Hades / Sheol’?

I am still working out the details. It appears that the spirit goes to be with God but I also believe in the existence of hades/sheol, the place of the dead souls, where they go to wait.
Spirit to God, soul to hades, body to grave.

This has changed imo since Jesus ascended to heaven and now the souls of those in Christ go to heaven to be with the Lord, even if they might be still sleeping.
These are the ones that God brings back with Jesus when He returns, to be resurrected into their resurrection bodies.

1Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

The ancients DID NOT KNOW what happened to a PERSON (a SOUL) after death. They IMAGINED what they heard from tribes and nations they were in and around who were of Pagan beliefs… These Pagan beliefs envisioned a place of torment and discomfort … for whom? The wicked and the dead??? What purpose would there be for ‘being righteous’ if the end was to be everlastingly tormented…??

In our discussion I would urge you to not use these Pagan references and stick to the Christian terms WHICH WE NOW KNOW ARE OUR TRUTH!

Sheol and Hades are Christian terms. This is a temporary place where the dead go imo.

 

[Brian2]

I would not say that at death in the body a man becomes a DEAD SOUL… remember that the Soul cannot be DEAD as long as the SPIRIT LIVES… and the Spirit lives until, or only if, it is DESTROYED by God (designated Jesus Christ) who made it. Keep reading Matt 10:28 and seeing the difference between what can be ‘Killed’ and what can be ‘Destroyed’!!!

The dead body is called a dead soul in the OT. If I did not say that,,,,,,,, that is what I meant.
But of course that does not mean that the body is the soul.

Paul is speaking FUTURE … After the judgement. Yes, he regards the Apostles as ‘Those already judged and await the first resurrection’.

WE WHO ARE NOT THOSE APOSTLES MUST NOT ADOPT PAUL’S FORETHOUGHT else we are in danger of SELF JUDGEMENT… and judgement is the preserve of JESUS CHRIST ALONE!!!

I have had discussions about this ‘Going to Heaven when we die’ … I am left with the mind that there is too much misbelief and too much ‘I am an apostle and going directly to be with Jesus Christ’ delusion.’

What can be difficult to believe and understand:

• We live … some a godly life … some a wicked life
• We die… Our Spirit, whether of godliness or wickedness, goes to rests with God (yeah, I know why many disagree here but truth will draw naysayers!!)
• The dead await the resurrection:
  • The first resurrection is of those whom God ELECTED from the beginning and those subsequent ones afterwards who are called to righteousness through Christ Jesus: THE ELECT. These are ALREADY JUDGED and go to be with Jesus Christ as joint heirs to God - ethereal brothers to Jesus Christ and also be JUDGES with Christ in the SECOND RESURRECTION
• The SECOND resurrection… All the rest of humanity are brought to life along with the demon angels and Satan and the final judgement takes place:
  • Those who are judged as righteous, into PARADISE…..!!!!!
  • Those who are judged as WICKED, to DESTRUCTION…. Annihilation … no more to be recalled to mind… which includes DEATH itself.

Paul, as said, assumes himself as one of the elect (I’m not judging!) and therefore sees himself as pre-judged and will BE WITH CHRIST AT HIS DEATH …meaning at his resurrection at the FIRST TRUMP call!!! He also encourages the other apostles to think the same which is where we see the constant terminology of ‘We will ALL BE CHANGED… in the blink of an eye… we will be caught up with him in the air.. !’.

It can then be seen that Scripture preachers press this point to their congregation AS IF THEY… and the congregation… ARE THE ELECT … because Paul said ‘WE…’

At the first resurrection all those who are in Christ will be resurrected, and also those in Christ who are still alive on earth will also be be changed and get their new resurrection body. (see 1Thess 4:13-16)
The righteousness of those in Christ is the righteousness of Christ and they have passed over the judgement for salvation.
If you are a Christian, you are in Christ, in this category.
There are of course some people who may have a head belief in Jesus but not follow up with being led by the Spirit or works of love. It would be these to whom Jesus says that He never knew them.
As a Christian it is good to have some sort of assurance of your salvation however, otherwise you might be trying to earn your salvation through your works.

 

[amazing grace]

True, in death the body is no longer animated, it is a dead soul, it has no breathe of life. No life functions are present in the dead body.
The spirit which God gave, goes back to God.
A definition of soul which you did not highlight is the inner being of man.
and the man became a living soul. (nepash - 1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion; A. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man; B. living being, C. living being (with life in the blood), D. the man himself, self, person or individual, E. seat of the appetites, F. seat of emotions and passions)
This "inner being of man" survives the death of the body and goes to hades where the thought it had are gone (but this does not mean that it cannot think) it does not know what is happening in the land of the living and does not have knowledge (wisdom) as those alive have. Yet there it is, a dormant/sleeping spirit that can be stirred to consciousness at times it seems. I see that in the witch of Endor and the lament to the King of Babylon and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man etc. Why have conscious dead people if that does not happen?

The "inner being of man" - Where does scripture say the "inner being of man" survives the death of the body? I would consider "the inner being of man" is where our emotions spring from. Our "hearts" in which we may be troubled, anxious, feel fear corresponds with the "seat of emotions or passions" - as when Zechariah was troubled and fear fell upon him [Luke 1:12]; or like Jesus in Gethsemane: "My soul is very sorrowful" . . . [Matt. 26:37]
If scripture tells us the state of the dead in that there is no more thought, no knowledge and no wisdom in the grave - it doesn't actually mean that "it cannot think"????
I have already discussed the witch of Endor. Jesus told parables to teach - the primary intent was to show that the Pharisees were so evil that even if someone rose from the dead they wouldn't listen to him --- they didn't hear Moses and the prophets neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead --- which turned out to be true as evidenced by Jesus's own resurrection. Consider this: in Revelation 21:4 after all the judgments, there will be no more sorrow, crying or pain. How could saved believers possible enjoy the riches of eternity if they were constantly hearing burning people shouting up at them for water?!?

Yes a dead body is considered a dead soul, but that does not mean that the body is the soul.
Again I go to that use of "soul" above, "the inner being of man".

I think that you are applying "the inner being of man" with this verse in Ephesians 3:16 "he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being (man)." This refers to the new birth, the new man, being IN Christ, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling within the believer via the gift of holy spirit.
Why would the translators translate dead "body" from the Hebrew word "nephesh" if it didn't mean "soul"? If the body is dead and the body is considered "soul" then the "soul/body" is dead.

Paul said that his death meant being with the Lord.
Eph 4:7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore it says,
“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”
This, to me, means that He took many of those inprisoned in the place of the dead, hades, with Him when He rose and went back to heaven.
Those in Christ also go to be with the Lord at death imo.
These are the ones that God brings back with Christ when He returns, so that they can be resurrected into their immortal resurrection bodies.
1Thess 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. 15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.…

Do you believe that the OT prophets and believers immediately went to heaven upon their death?
Paul quotes this psalm of triumph about God ascending to Mount Zion and establishing His Temple and receiving gifts from people in Ephesians and applies it to the triumph of Christ ascending into heaven and giving gifts to people to Christ reigning from heaven over his heavenly people, the Church, and gives gifts to them so they are equipped to help him with his work on earth of reconciling people to God.
I still see no reason for the dead in Christ "those who have fallen asleep in him" to rise first if we are already in heaven and brought back with Christ. I think there is more contained within that verse and it's something that I haven't explored fully.

 

[amazing grace]

Romans 5:11Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

It seems to mean both natural death and spiritual death.
Adam and Eve died spiritually in the garden because they lost their communion with God who is the life of their inner man. Also they were kicked out of the garden and away from access to the tree of life and so they died naturally also.
The Holy Spirit in us, gives our inner man communion with God and eternal life. We are spiritually revived, born again.
The body is redeemed and born again at the resurrection. (Romans 8:23)

The judgment of death, i.e. physical death was passed on to all men, because all have sinned even to those who sinned without the law DIED "physically". "for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given" - before the law showed them what sin was - but sin is not counted where there is no law YET death reigned from Adam to Moses (those before the law was given) . . . YET men died PHYSICALLY.
Yes, Adam and Eve lost their intimate relationship with God. God clothed them with animal skins to "cover their sin". So, could we relate that to a spiritual death . . . I don't want to speculate . . . I will have to say that I am not sure.

Did Adam and Eve have "the inner man"; i.e. new birth?

We have been adopted and are God's children now (Rom. 8:15, Eph. 1:5, 1 John 3:2) just not yet in full possession of all the things promised us as God's children - yes, we await the redemption our body and our being born from above at the resurrection ------
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body
. . . we shall be like him because we shall see him as he is.

 

[amazing grace]

I don’t think @amazing grace understands ‘Destruction’ as opposed to just ‘Die’ / ‘Killed’ in the body… that the Spirit of a man ‘does not die’ at death of his body but is only RESTING / DORMANT / INERT / SLEEPING in God who created the Spirit of that man. I gave @amazing grace an analogy of a seed, a bulb… but it seems it was ignored since acknowledging the analogy would mean acknowledging he/she was wrong in his/her written claims. I think it’s just a skewed sense of wording and language usage which then leads to confusion over exactly what he/she actually is trying to think…! I see he/she uses a convolute dictionary definition of ‘dead’ as ‘not living’ which then translates as ‘Non-EXISTENT’??? But I ask, how can the spirit sleeping with God be non-existent? So I do the good deed by saying it for him/her: ‘Non-existent IN THE CREATED WORLD - alive with God’. A seed, in winter, is ‘dead above ground but alive, sleeping, resting, dormant, in the soil awaiting the Spring to be regenerated’. But that truth was dashed away… what more can one do for him/her who cannot accept truth?

Post 331:

God will redeem our whole body at the resurrection. We will be judged - those judged righteous to eternal life - those judged unrighteous to the lake of fire (gehanna) where the body and soul will be destroyed."

Post 390:

I don't see where Jesus said that the soul does not die at the death of the body. IMHO - I see that Jesus is teaching them not to fear losing their life by the hands of men as they go about preaching the Kingdom/gospel - that their salvation and the salvation of others is more important, but they should fear God who judges and can destroy both body and soul in the second death.
So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. (10:32)
I explained that the body is the flesh, the soul is the breath life and there is the spirit of man within man - body, soul, and spirit. This makes up a whole person and when that person dies - he is dead - he has no breath, nor spirit that animates his body. Upon resurrection, the person is revived, given life and must give account of what he has done - If he is judged righteous - eternal life; if he is judged unrighteous - the second death. thrown into the lake of fire.

Post 405:

And I gave you what I believed Jesus was teaching. I believe God and His Christ are very capable of knowing us and reviving our "dry bones/dust" and giving us life in the resurrection. That revived resurrected person will be judged righteous and given eternal life or judged unrighteous and their body/soul destroyed in the second death.

Is that enough or should I find more?

 

[amazing grace]

Ok, you got me there!! In fact I was thinking that no one of humanity should call themselves [an] angel…as that would diminish and belittle the ‘Image of God’ in mankind. (But, of course I was wrongly thinking ‘amazing ANGEL’ instead of ‘amazing GRACE’… funny, I hadn’t got a correction from @amazing grace!!!)

I thought you were just calling me an "angel"!

 

[Soapy]

The dead body is called a dead soul in the OT. If I did not say that,,,,,,,, that is what I meant.
But of course that does not mean that the body is the soul.

Brian2… a dead BODY is a dead Soul? Really?
Ok, AS FAR AS HUMANITY is concerned because in such a scenario the eternal Spirit has not been considered… It is for simplicity of human understanding that it should be called so. But here we are dealing with the Spiritual. And we know that in the Spiritual aspect the Soul still lives - the Soul lives because the Spirit of that Soul lives even if the body of that Soul has decayed.

The term, ‘Dead’ applies only from a HUMAN PERSPECTIVE… The term describes the inability of a living entity to communicate, to interact associatively, with another entity whose Spirit has ceased to be in the body.

At the first resurrection all those who are in Christ will be resurrected, and also those in Christ who are still alive on earth will also be be changed and get their new resurrection body. (see 1Thess 4:13-16)
The righteousness of those in Christ is the righteousness of Christ and they have passed over the judgement for salvation.
If you are a Christian, you are in Christ, in this category.
There are of course some people who may have a head belief in Jesus but not follow up with being led by the Spirit or works of love. It would be these to whom Jesus says that He never knew them.
As a Christian it is good to have some sort of assurance of your salvation however, otherwise you might be trying to earn your salvation through your works.

Wow, so easy!!! Just call yourself a Christian and you are one of the Elect….!?

 

[Soapy]

Not lie, maybe error.



I am still working out the details. It appears that the spirit goes to be with God but I also believe in the existence of hades/sheol, the place of the dead souls, where they go to wait.
Spirit to God, soul to hades, body to grave.

This has changed imo since Jesus ascended to heaven and now the souls of those in Christ go to heaven to be with the Lord, even if they might be still sleeping.
These are the ones that God brings back with Jesus when He returns, to be resurrected into their resurrection bodies.

1Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Sheol and Hades are Christian terms. This is a temporary place where the dead go imo.

Hi Brian2, you say you believe in Sheol and Hades (well, Hades, any way)

But you also say that the souls of the dead go down to Hades although you also say the souls of the dead rests with God.., How does that work?

Tell me what you believe about Hades (and Sheol, if it’s the same thing… or different!!)

Brian2, ‘Hades’ is not ‘Christian’. It is Greek Mythology. The scripture writers may have used the term in reference to ‘Where the dead go IF YOU ARE GREEK MYTH BELIEVER’ to appeal to the Greek congregation. But you are aware, I’m sure, that if is the supposed bad people who go to Hades after death to LIVE WRETCHED LIVES IN PUNISHMENT!!. Christianity does not hold any such belief. Christianity says that ALL WHO DIE, their spirit rests with God awaiting the judgement… And there is only one punishment did this as judged as WICKED, and that is a once only ETERNAL DESTRUCTION!)

 

[Soapy]

The judgment of death, i.e. physical death was passed on to all men, because all have sinned even to those who sinned without the law DIED "physically". "for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given" - before the law showed them what sin was - but sin is not counted where there is no law YET death reigned from Adam to Moses (those before the law was given) . . . YET men died PHYSICALLY.
Yes, Adam and Eve lost their intimate relationship with God. God clothed them with animal skins to "cover their sin". So, could we relate that to a spiritual death . . . I don't want to speculate . . . I will have to say that I am not sure.

Did Adam and Eve have "the inner man"; i.e. new birth?

We have been adopted and are God's children now (Rom. 8:15, Eph. 1:5, 1 John 3:2) just not yet in full possession of all the things promised us as God's children - yes, we await the redemption our body and our being born from above at the resurrection ------
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body
. . . we shall be like him because we shall see him as he is.

But Jesus Christ died … and he did not sin nor was he a descendent of Adam, through whom all mankind sinned.

 

[amazing grace]

But Jesus Christ died … and he did not sin nor was he a descendent of Adam, through whom all mankind sinned.

That's true.

 

[Soapy]

I still see no reason for the dead in Christ "those who have fallen asleep in him" to rise first if we are already in heaven and brought back with Christ. I think there is more contained within that verse and it's something that I haven't explored fully.

I think you are once again thinking wrongly and misled by what Brian2 implied.

The ‘Dead in Christ’ means those who have died BELIEVING IN CHRIST… And you note the fact that the verse says ‘Fallen Asleep’… which is what I’ve been saying to you for so long: The dead in the world are only ‘Sleeping’ in God. IOW… The Spirit of those Souls (Persons) who have died in the world are ‘only sleeping’, inert, resting, dormant, inactive, uncommunicative, in God — God who created those spirits. They are his and will not DESTROY them before they are judged and found wanting!!

 

[amazing grace]

I think you are once again thinking wrongly and misled by what Brian2 implied.

The ‘Dead in Christ’ means those who have died BELIEVING IN CHRIST… And you note the fact that the verse says ‘Fallen Asleep’… which is what I’ve been saying to you for so long: The dead in the world are only ‘Sleeping’ in God. IOW… The Spirit of those Souls (Persons) who have died in the world are ‘only sleeping’, inert, resting, dormant, inactive, uncommunicative, in God — God who created those spirits. They are his and will not DESTROY them before they are judged and found wanting!!

Okay.

Yes, the dead in Christ are those who have died believing in Christ.
Yes, "fallen asleep" or "sleep" is a metaphor for death.
Yes, the dead are sleeping in the grave, no longer conscious. When I lay down to sleep at night (and yes, I am aware that there are different stages of sleep) but I am talking about the state of deep sleep, I know nothing. I have no concept of time. It's the same in death, I am laid in the grave and my next waking thought or consciousness is being in the presence of God and Christ at the resurrection.
The dead are dead, i.e. lifeless.
Again, the body is lifeless therefore no more life force, i.e. soul, the soul that gives life to the body is gone which results in a dead body. Yes, resting and at peace in the grace awaiting the resurrection.
The body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
As for the "spirit returns to God who gave it" - what meaning do you apply here? the spirit of man? the breath of man? the gift of holy spirit which was given to man when they repented and were baptized? ETC.

I know you do not agree and we probably will not come to an agreement on this subject so we can just move on to something else. It has been interesting.

 

[Brian2]

Hi Brian2, you say you believe in Sheol and Hades (well, Hades, any way)

But you also say that the souls of the dead go down to Hades although you also say the souls of the dead rests with God.., How does that work?

Tell me what you believe about Hades (and Sheol, if it’s the same thing… or different!!)

Brian2, ‘Hades’ is not ‘Christian’. It is Greek Mythology. The scripture writers may have used the term in reference to ‘Where the dead go IF YOU ARE GREEK MYTH BELIEVER’ to appeal to the Greek congregation. But you are aware, I’m sure, that if is the supposed bad people who go to Hades after death to LIVE WRETCHED LIVES IN PUNISHMENT!!. Christianity does not hold any such belief. Christianity says that ALL WHO DIE, their spirit rests with God awaiting the judgement… And there is only one punishment did this as judged as WICKED, and that is a once only ETERNAL DESTRUCTION!)

Shoel is the Hebrew name for the place of the dead and it means the same as Hades, the New Testament equivalent.
It is the place where the spiritual souls, essence of a person goes to await resurrection and the final judgement.
I have trouble separating the spirit of a person and the spiritual soul.
I think that the spirit which goes to be with God at death of the body, is the soul and God put it is hades.
I might be wrong and there probably is a separation between the spirit and soul with the spirit going to God and the soul to hades.
I see hades as a place where the souls are pretty much asleep but still can stir at times, but they don't know what is happening in the land of the living, and forget the knowledge they had and everyone forgets them.
Some souls are being comforted in hades and some are in a state of discomfort (as per Luke 16--Lazarus and the rich man).
Since the resurrection I see those in Christ as going to be with Christ, but maybe in the same sleep condition as those in Hades however.

There are a number of beliefs about the afterlife in Christianity and many Christians do believe in a state of eternal torment, seeing separation from God as meaning the second death.

 

[Brian2]

But Jesus Christ died … and he did not sin nor was he a descendent of Adam, through whom all mankind sinned.

If Jesus was not a descendant of Adam through Mary then He was not a human.

 

[Brian2]

Brian2… a dead BODY is a dead Soul? Really?
Ok, AS FAR AS HUMANITY is concerned because in such a scenario the eternal Spirit has not been considered… It is for simplicity of human understanding that it should be called so. But here we are dealing with the Spiritual. And we know that in the Spiritual aspect the Soul still lives - the Soul lives because the Spirit of that Soul lives even if the body of that Soul has decayed.

The term, ‘Dead’ applies only from a HUMAN PERSPECTIVE… The term describes the inability of a living entity to communicate, to interact associatively, with another entity whose Spirit has ceased to be in the body.

Well I guess humans are made from dust and when that dust is animated it is a living soul, so when the life has left that living soul, the body remains and it is called a dead soul.
BUT of course the body is not the only thing that comprises the soul. There is the spiritual part also, the part that leaves the body at it's death. This part, the life, cannot be called dead really when it is the life of the body.
IMO the soul is the totality of a person, whether the body is alive or not.
When alive the soul includes the body.
When the body dies, the soul is the other spiritual parts of a person that have left the body.
If a person is resurrected into a body again, the soul again includes a body,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and actually a human is not complete without a body.

Wow, so easy!!! Just call yourself a Christian and you are one of the Elect….!?

Yes that's the point, we don't earn our salvation through our works, we show our salvation through our works.
All those in Christ through faith are the elect.
How do you define the elect?