Jesus - First Born?

[amazing grace]

Ok, so what do you say is the difference between being Dead and being Destroyed?

Man can kill the Body but not the Soul.
God can DESTROY both Soul and Body.

• ‘Kill’ is temporary temporary dormant Spirit and decaying body.
• ‘Destroy’ is permanent and everlasting removal from from all existence of the Soul/Person both Spirit and body.

From Post #331: I do not read in Matt. 10:28 that the soul lives on after death. I posted what I believe Matt. 10:28 means: "Body, soul and spirit (sometimes referred to the "spirit of man") is what makes up the whole of man. When a person dies the whole person dies. God will redeem our whole body at the resurrection. We will be judged - those judged righteous to eternal life - those judged unrighteous to the lake of fire (gehanna) where the body and soul will be destroyed." . . . . The second death.
In this context "cannot kill the soul" being contrasted with "destroy both body and soul in hell" is in relation to "eternal life".

I believe some of the problem lies in separating a person into three parts, i.e. three entities. The whole person is comprised of a body, soul, spirit.
Our body houses our soul/spirit and one cannot survive without the other - so when a person quits breathing they are considered dead and their thoughts/emotions cease and they are placed in the grave.
Several English words in the Bible refer to our life force - breath, life, soul and spirit - in the Hebrew nephesh (soul) and ruach (spirit) and the Greek equivalent psuche and pneuma and sometimes their biblical usages overlap.

 

[Soapy]

From Post #331: I do not read in Matt. 10:28 that the soul lives on after death. I posted what I believe Matt. 10:28 means: "Body, soul and spirit (sometimes referred to the "spirit of man") is what makes up the whole of man. When a person dies the whole person dies. God will redeem our whole body at the resurrection. We will be judged - those judged righteous to eternal life - those judged unrighteous to the lake of fire (gehanna) where the body and soul will be destroyed." . . . . The second death.
In this context "cannot kill the soul" being contrasted with "destroy both body and soul in hell" is in relation to "eternal life".

I believe some of the problem lies in separating a person into three parts, i.e. three entities. The whole person is comprised of a body, soul, spirit.
Our body houses our soul/spirit and one cannot survive without the other - so when a person quits breathing they are considered dead and their thoughts/emotions cease and they are placed in the grave.
Several English words in the Bible refer to our life force - breath, life, soul and spirit - in the Hebrew nephesh (soul) and ruach (spirit) and the Greek equivalent psuche and pneuma and sometimes their biblical usages overlap.

SOUL… is not another PART of a ‘PERSON’.

SOUL … is just a different word FOR PERSON.

It is like saying ‘Jesus was both Messiah and Christ’… While it IS TRUE that he was BOTH it must be understood that it is BECAUSE ‘MESSIAH’ (Hebrew) IS JUST ANOTHER WORD FOR CHRIST (Greek).

Before the year 1100 AD, the word referring to an individual was ‘SOUL’. But as with many usage and adoption of LANGUAGE, the GREEK or LATIN language became more prominent and the WORD usage turned to ‘PERSONA’ which was modified to ‘PERSON’.

Also, can I just say again that you must think in the SPIRITUAL mode, not the FLESHLY mode in order to understand scriptures. The flesh counts for NOTHING…

A ‘PERSON’ exists as long as their SPIRIT exists.
The BODY counts for NOTHING!!!
A ‘SOUL’ exists as long as their SPIRIT exists.
The BODY counts for NOTHING!!!

If the SPIRIT is DESTROYED then BOTH SOUL/PERSON and BODY is also DESTROYED consequentially.

Can you see that it is the SPIRIT that makes THE PERSON EXIST. So as long as the Spirit exists the PERSON exists.

Soul/ Person MERELY refers to the aspect of the two parts: Spirit and Body.

SPIRIT —— -!

} — PERSON/SOUL​

BODY ———!

Amazing Grace, are you STILL not understanding what went on that led to the claim of ‘Three parts to man’????

The Trinitarians were asked - If God is THREE PERSONS, how is it that MAN, made in the image of God, is ONLY TWO PARTS: Spirit and Body.

After much contemplation THEIR TRANSLATORS inserted the ‘SOUL’ as though it were THE MISSING THIRD PART which then seemed to secure the claim that as God is three so also Man is three.

But ASK THEM which of the three persons in their God is each part in Man…. Don’t be shy … ASK!!!

Is the body their ‘Holy Spirit’? Remember, the body counts for nothing!!!

Is the body Jesus? Remember the body is a created entity in the world…. They claim Jesus was pre-eminently eternal before creation.

Which part of Man is ‘The Father’? The Spirit? Well, GOD IS SPIRIT and indeed God is the CREATOR of Spirit. The Spirit GIVES LIFE… and ‘Father’ does mean: ‘He who gives life’…

So what is the SOUL… I hope you can see that there is nothing to define in GOD for it. And that is because of does not belong as PART of a Man nor, in fact, is almighty God THREE PERSONS.

Think on this also: How was an individual referred to in the Old Testament (in Hebrew)? How did someone say, ‘Me, Myself’?

—- ‘My Soul’​

How would they say, ‘Many People died in the wilderness’?

—- ‘Many Souls died in the wilderness’​

What about ‘The person who sins shall die!’?

—- ‘The Soul that sinneth shall die’​

And lastly, I BEG YOU to stop using the term ‘Non-Existent’ in relation to HUMANITY and GOD. Once God has created life in Man, His image, the man CANNOT GO OUT OF EXISTENCE by any definition that you design BECAUSE the LIFE is in the SPIRIT; and the Spirit cannot DIE….!!!!

Amazing Angel, even the DEMON SPIRITS are only ‘Jailed in eternal darkness’ AWAITING THEIR DAY OF DESTRUCTION:

• ‘The Spirit cannot DIE but it CAN BE DESTROYED’

If the Spirit of the person cannot die, but the BODY of the person has fallen into decay, is the Spirit of the Person NON-EXISTENT?

Sure, IN THE WORLD, the Spirit is non-existent as if CANNOT ACT WITHOUT A BODY!!!

But ‘Absent in the body: Present with God’…

If you only think in the flesh then your conclusion is maybe right… but in the SPIRITUAL there is no non-existence UNTIL GOD DESTROYS THE SPIRIT… then that LIFE BY THE SPIRIT is no more.. and THERE you have your ‘No life - No existence’. But this ONLY OCCURS AT THE END OF TIME!!

Even the demon spirits EXIST in the darkness of Spiritual Jail until the day of destruction.

 

[amazing grace]

SOUL… is not another PART of a ‘PERSON’.

SOUL … is just a different word FOR PERSON.

I completely understand this - I said: I believe some of the problem lies in separating a person into three parts, i.e. three entities. I probably should have said that "some people seem to separate a person into three parts - I do not.

It is like saying ‘Jesus was both Messiah and Christ’… While it IS TRUE that he was BOTH it must be understood that it is BECAUSE ‘MESSIAH’ (Hebrew) IS JUST ANOTHER WORD FOR CHRIST (Greek).

Before the year 1100 AD, the word referring to an individual was ‘SOUL’. But as with many usage and adoption of LANGUAGE, the GREEK or LATIN language became more prominent and the WORD usage turned to ‘PERSONA’ which was modified to ‘PERSON’.

Also, can I just say again that you must think in the SPIRITUAL mode, not the FLESHLY mode in order to understand scriptures. The flesh counts for NOTHING…

A ‘PERSON’ exists as long as their SPIRIT exists.
The BODY counts for NOTHING!!!
A ‘SOUL’ exists as long as their SPIRIT exists.
The BODY counts for NOTHING!!!

If the SPIRIT is DESTROYED then BOTH SOUL/PERSON and BODY is also DESTROYED consequentially.

Can you see that it is the SPIRIT that makes THE PERSON EXIST. So as long as the Spirit exists the PERSON exists.

Soul/ Person MERELY refers to the aspect of the two parts: Spirit and Body.

SPIRIT —— -!

} — PERSON/SOUL​

BODY ———!

Matt. 10:28 is not referencing the "spirit" but is referencing the soul. Soul has different meanings (as does spirit) depending upon the context and is translated and referred to as a creature/person; life/lives; the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.); mind.

Amazing Grace, are you STILL not understanding what went on that led to the claim of ‘Three parts to man’????

The Trinitarians were asked - If God is THREE PERSONS, how is it that MAN, made in the image of God, is ONLY TWO PARTS: Spirit and Body.

After much contemplation THEIR TRANSLATORS inserted the ‘SOUL’ as though it were THE MISSING THIRD PART which then seemed to secure the claim that as God is three so also Man is three.

But ASK THEM which of the three persons in their God is each part in Man…. Don’t be shy … ASK!!!

Is the body their ‘Holy Spirit’? Remember, the body counts for nothing!!!

Is the body Jesus? Remember the body is a created entity in the world…. They claim Jesus was pre-eminently eternal before creation.

Which part of Man is ‘The Father’? The Spirit? Well, GOD IS SPIRIT and indeed God is the CREATOR of Spirit. The Spirit GIVES LIFE… and ‘Father’ does mean: ‘He who gives life’…

So what is the SOUL… I hope you can see that there is nothing to define in GOD for it. And that is because of does not belong as PART of a Man nor, in fact, is almighty God THREE PERSONS.

above

Think on this also: How was an individual referred to in the Old Testament (in Hebrew)? How did someone say, ‘Me, Myself’?

—- ‘My Soul’​

How would they say, ‘Many People died in the wilderness’?

—- ‘Many Souls died in the wilderness’​

What about ‘The person who sins shall die!’?

—- ‘The Soul that sinneth shall die’​

And lastly, I BEG YOU to stop using the term ‘Non-Existent’ in relation to HUMANITY and GOD. Once God has created life in Man, His image, the man CANNOT GO OUT OF EXISTENCE by any definition that you design BECAUSE the LIFE is in the SPIRIT; and the Spirit cannot DIE….!!!!

Amazing Angel, even the DEMON SPIRITS are only ‘Jailed in eternal darkness’ AWAITING THEIR DAY OF DESTRUCTION:

• ‘The Spirit cannot DIE but it CAN BE DESTROYED’

If the Spirit of the person cannot die, but the BODY of the person has fallen into decay, is the Spirit of the Person NON-EXISTENT?

Sure, IN THE WORLD, the Spirit is non-existent as if CANNOT ACT WITHOUT A BODY!!!

But ‘Absent in the body: Present with God’…

If you only think in the flesh then your conclusion is maybe right… but in the SPIRITUAL there is no non-existence UNTIL GOD DESTROYS THE SPIRIT… then that LIFE BY THE SPIRIT is no more.. and THERE you have your ‘No life - No existence’. But this ONLY OCCURS AT THE END OF TIME!!
Even the demon spirits EXIST in the darkness of Spiritual Jail until the day of destruction.

The context is salvation: Matt. 10:28 - do not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the "soul" - a man can kill the body but he cannot kill "life" as in "eternal life"
IN CONTRAST
fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. (God will judge through his Son, Jesus Christ, those righteous to eternal life; those unrighteous to the lake of fire - the second death.)
"so everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."

I really don't see what the big deal is about using the word nonexistent - it is just the opposite of exist. One means to have life and one means without life. We die, we don't exist until Christ returns and we are resurrected, given life and new spiritual bodies. If we go directly to heaven, i.e. to God, then why would death be considered an enemy? It would be considered our "friend". And if we are directly in the presence of God we would look forward to death and not to the return of Christ and our resurrection. (1 Peter 1:3)
I bet Lazarus was mad when Jesus brought him back to life after being dead for 4 days and he had to leave the presence of God!

It would be easier to respond to each point if the post was laid out in a more precise manner. It could be just me but it seems all over the place and you are changing the word soul for spirit - which needs to be specified if speaking about the "spirit of man"(as in body, soul, spirit), the Spirit of God, or the gift of holy spirit.

 

[Soapy]

I completely understand this - I said: I believe some of the problem lies in separating a person into three parts, i.e. three entities. I probably should have said that "some people seem to separate a person into three parts - I do not.

Matt. 10:28 is not referencing the "spirit" but is referencing the soul. Soul has different meanings (as does spirit) depending upon the context and is translated and referred to as a creature/person; life/lives; the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.); mind.

above


The context is salvation: Matt. 10:28 - do not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the "soul" - a man can kill the body but he cannot kill "life" as in "eternal life"
IN CONTRAST
fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. (God will judge through his Son, Jesus Christ, those righteous to eternal life; those unrighteous to the lake of fire - the second death.)
"so everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."

I really don't see what the big deal is about using the word nonexistent - it is just the opposite of exist. One means to have life and one means without life. We die, we don't exist until Christ returns and we are resurrected, given life and new spiritual bodies. If we go directly to heaven, i.e. to God, then why would death be considered an enemy? It would be considered our "friend". And if we are directly in the presence of God we would look forward to death and not to the return of Christ and our resurrection. (1 Peter 1:3)
I bet Lazarus was mad when Jesus brought him back to life after being dead for 4 days and he had to leave the presence of God!

It would be easier to respond to each point if the post was laid out in a more precise manner. It could be just me but it seems all over the place and you are changing the word soul for spirit - which needs to be specified if speaking about the "spirit of man"(as in body, soul, spirit), the Spirit of God, or the gift of holy spirit.

Amazing Angel… I asked you to think in the SPIRITUAL but you insist on thinking in the flesh… it is no wonder you cannot understand what is being said to you.

All up to the ‘The context is salvation’ was fine. And then you get stuck on your favourite fallacy!!!

But just that… SALVATION has NOTHING TO DO WITH Matthew 10:28, per de. Jesus’ death on the cross brought that Salvation… Matthew is talking of ETERNAL LIFE!!! But if you want to call it ‘Salvation’ then so be it. We need to understand by the definition of our words!!!

Jesus is saying that though man can kill the body, the life force, which is the SPIRIT still lives on U N CO M M U N I C A T I V E with God, it is D O R M A N T , ‘RESTING’, ‘SLEEPING’… with GOD WHO CREATED IT… ‘put on the “shelf of spirit life” in Heaven…

Can you not understand that!??

The spirit in the condition as pointed out HAS NO LIFE IN THE WORLD… that’s what you call ‘Non-Existent’. I said that is right … IN THE WORLD.. because the dormant Spirit is NOT ACTIVE and cannot be active WITHOUT A BODY - and it’s body is decayed to dust!!!

I notice you don’t respond with words I present to you such as ‘Dormant’, INACTIVE’, etc. but instead you make tepid suggestions that the dead are happy to be with God… AMAZING ANGEL the dormant spirit KNOWS NOTHING. It has no sense of being, it cannot express joy, sadness, it cannot feel pain nor pleasure.

But think on this: Are the Spirit of those who are deemed as wicked ALSO PLEASED TO BE WITH GOD, by your scenario? All spirits of human dead RESTS WITH GOD who gave the Spirit…
But ANGEL spirits that are wicked CANNOT be saved and are ALREADY JUDGED so scriptures assigns they’d condition as LIKENED TO BEING IN JAIL IN CHAINS IN DARKNESS… something many people of those time would know or be personally familiar with (we’ve all seen movies and dramatisations of such!)
Those demon angels Are INACTIVE… God ‘locked them away’ until their day of destruction and they can NO LONGER INTERACT IN the WORLD TO DECEIVE HUMANITY as they did in the days of Noah and before.

No! What can happen is that if a LIVING person claims they are saved to eternal life …. as Paul and maybe some other Apostles say…. Then death in the body WAS A DELIGHT AS THEY then believed they are ALREADY JUDGED and going into everlasting life… BUT WE… every NOT AN APOSTLE, cannot say HOW WE WILL BE JUDGED… and, indeed, we should not make any claim to anyone that we are … There is the HOPE always (But what is WICKEDNESS?)

Ok, I will stop the ‘Sermon’. A Pastor last night said:

• ‘You cannot make someone believe… you can only give them the truth and HOPE and PRAY that they come to accept it’.

 

[amazing grace]

Amazing Angel… I asked you to think in the SPIRITUAL but you insist on thinking in the flesh… it is no wonder you cannot understand what is being said to you.

All up to the ‘The context is salvation’ was fine. And then you get stuck on your favourite fallacy!!!

But just that… SALVATION has NOTHING TO DO WITH Matthew 10:28, per de. Jesus’ death on the cross brought that Salvation… Matthew is talking of ETERNAL LIFE!!! But if you want to call it ‘Salvation’ then so be it. We need to understand by the definition of our words!!!

Jesus is saying that though man can kill the body, the life force, which is the SPIRIT still lives on U N CO M M U N I C A T I V E with God, it is D O R M A N T , ‘RESTING’, ‘SLEEPING’… with GOD WHO CREATED IT… ‘put on the “shelf of spirit life” in Heaven…

Can you not understand that!??

The thing is I do understand what you are saying. Yes, I have been saying all along that Matt. 10:28 concerns eternal life - isn't that what salvation brings? So I wouldn't say SALVATION has NOTHING TO DO with Matt. 10:28! Jesus was sending out the twelve to proclaim the kingdom of heaven to the lost sheep of Israel. Why? To get them saved, offer them salvation through Jesus Christ.
There is nothing said about SPIRIT in the verse or the context.
A person is a body which is animated by their soul/spirit. In death, the body is no longer animated. The thing about being "dormant" - seed that is dormant still has life within it - therefore, IMO, to say that when one dies they (remembering that a person's totality is comprised of body, soul, spirit) are "dormant" implies "you shall not surely die."

The spirit in the condition as pointed out HAS NO LIFE IN THE WORLD… that’s what you call ‘Non-Existent’. I said that is right … IN THE WORLD.. because the dormant Spirit is NOT ACTIVE and cannot be active WITHOUT A BODY - and it’s body is decayed to dust!!!

I notice you don’t respond with words I present to you such as ‘Dormant’, INACTIVE’, etc. but instead you make tepid suggestions that the dead are happy to be with God… AMAZING ANGEL the dormant spirit KNOWS NOTHING. It has no sense of being, it cannot express joy, sadness, it cannot feel pain nor pleasure.

But think on this: Are the Spirit of those who are deemed as wicked ALSO PLEASED TO BE WITH GOD, by your scenario? All spirits of human dead RESTS WITH GOD who gave the Spirit…
But ANGEL spirits that are wicked CANNOT be saved and are ALREADY JUDGED so scriptures assigns they’d condition as LIKENED TO BEING IN JAIL IN CHAINS IN DARKNESS… something many people of those time would know or be personally familiar with (we’ve all seen movies and dramatisations of such!)
Those demon angels Are INACTIVE… God ‘locked them away’ until their day of destruction and they can NO LONGER INTERACT IN the WORLD TO DECEIVE HUMANITY as they did in the days of Noah and before.

No! What can happen is that if a LIVING person claims they are saved to eternal life …. as Paul and maybe some other Apostles say…. Then death in the body WAS A DELIGHT AS THEY then believed they are ALREADY JUDGED and going into everlasting life… BUT WE… every NOT AN APOSTLE, cannot say HOW WE WILL BE JUDGED… and, indeed, we should not make any claim to anyone that we are … There is the HOPE always (But what is WICKEDNESS?)

Ok, I will stop the ‘Sermon’. A Pastor last night said:

• ‘You cannot make someone believe… you can only give them the truth and HOPE and PRAY that they come to accept it’.

The thing is we are discussing Matt. 10:28. We are discussing whether death means death - I think it does.
I see no relevance of the "spirits in prison", "the angels that sinned ---- cast into hell" (tartaroo=Tartarus).

True. Thank you.

 

[Brian2]

A person is a body which is animated by their soul/spirit. In death, the body is no longer animated. The thing about being "dormant" - seed that is dormant still has life within it - therefore, IMO, to say that when one dies they (remembering that a person's totality is comprised of body, soul, spirit) are "dormant" implies "you shall not surely die."

Is a living person a living soul or is a living person animated by their soul?
Or is it their spirit which animates the person?

The thing is we are discussing Matt. 10:28. We are discussing whether death means death - I think it does.

The way I see it is that what is being discussed is not whether a person dies, but is, what does death mean, and initially that is, what does the death of the body mean.
Maybe other religions believe that "you shall not surely die" but Bible believers believe we die, but just define death in different ways, beginning with the death of the body, which is when the spirit leaves the body.
Death of the body is not defined as becoming non existant. Our spirit which goes to God is a part of us after all.

 

[amazing grace]

Is a living person a living soul or is a living person animated by their soul?
Or is it their spirit which animates the person?

Both - A living person is a body animated by his soul/spirit. (Man is comprised of body, soul, spirit) The main definition for soul is 1) breath as in the vital life force that animates the body - life; a living soul (person); and soul can mean the seat of feelings, desires, affections.
"For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life (soul) as a ransom for many." [Mark 10:45]
"Now my soul is troubled. . ." (feelings) [John 12:27]
Then at times soul/spirit cross over in their definitions - pnuema - the vital principle by which the body is animated, the rational spirit, the power by which the human being thinks, decides. "For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." [2 Cor. 2:11]
"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead". [James 2:26]
Here's one from Job that carries both words: "Therefore I will not restrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul. [Job 7:11]
Our body cannot exist without being animated by our soul/spirit.

The way I see it is that what is being discussed is not whether a person dies, but is, what does death mean, and initially that is, what does the death of the body mean.
Maybe other religions believe that "you shall not surely die" but Bible believers believe we die, but just define death in different ways, beginning with the death of the body, which is when the spirit leaves the body.
Death of the body is not defined as becoming non existant. Our spirit which goes to God is a part of us after all.

I've tried to explain what it is to exist = living. When we die we are no longer living. We are no longer animated by our soul/spirit - no breath, no thoughts, no knowledge, no wisdom. Therefore we no longer exist until the resurrection and hence the need for a resurrection.
Thus says the LORD God to these dry bones: Behold I will cause breath (ruach = spirit) to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath (ruach = spirit) in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the LORD. [Ezekiel 37: 5,6]

 

[Brian2]

Both - A living person is a body animated by his soul/spirit. (Man is comprised of body, soul, spirit) The main definition for soul is 1) breath as in the vital life force that animates the body - life; a living soul (person); and soul can mean the seat of feelings, desires, affections.
"For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life (soul) as a ransom for many." [Mark 10:45]
"Now my soul is troubled. . ." (feelings) [John 12:27]
Then at times soul/spirit cross over in their definitions - pnuema - the vital principle by which the body is animated, the rational spirit, the power by which the human being thinks, decides. "For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." [2 Cor. 2:11]
"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead". [James 2:26]
Here's one from Job that carries both words: "Therefore I will not restrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul. [Job 7:11]

Yes it gets a bit complicated.

Our body cannot exist without being animated by our soul/spirit.

Adam's body did exist before receiving life and when we die our bodies do exist for a time without rotting, it goes to the pit, grave.
Our spirit goes to God when we die but still exists as far as we know.
Our soul, as the totality of a person, when the body dies and the spirit goes to God, the soul goes to the place of the dead, hades/sheol.
Everything is separate and the human being, as a human being, no longer exists. BUT the parts are there to be resurrected, reassembled, even though the body of the saved will be replaced with the new improved model made to be after the image of the second Adam.
IMO the soul which goes to hades, is not physical, it is spiritual and so has life in it even if it is not really and animating spirit. It is just that, like the body, we don't know how long a soul might last before it fades out, if ever.
It can be destroyed by God however but even then it seems there is something remaining (Mark 9:48) which is alive while it is being destroyed, but I don't see this as hell in the traditional sense of a place of eternal torment.

I've tried to explain what it is to exist = living. When we die we are no longer living. We are no longer animated by our soul/spirit - no breath, no thoughts, no knowledge, no wisdom. Therefore we no longer exist until the resurrection and hence the need for a resurrection.
Thus says the LORD God to these dry bones: Behold I will cause breath (ruach = spirit) to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath (ruach = spirit) in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the LORD. [Ezekiel 37: 5,6]

I see the need for a resurrection is so that those still in hades, or with the Lord, as spirits, can be united with a body and complete justice be served at the judgement. Some will be saved and some not.

 

[Soapy]

The thing is I do understand what you are saying. Yes, I have been saying all along that Matt. 10:28 concerns eternal life - isn't that what salvation brings? So I wouldn't say SALVATION has NOTHING TO DO with Matt. 10:28! Jesus was sending out the twelve to proclaim the kingdom of heaven to the lost sheep of Israel. Why? To get them saved, offer them salvation through Jesus Christ.

There is nothing said about SPIRIT in the verse or the context.

Please remember that the Greeks, and the the language of the Greeks, had a slightly different idea of ‘Spirit’ and ‘Soul’ than the Jews (Hebrews). In fact it seems you are exactly aligning your view with theirs in that they almost cannot distinguish between the two. Strong’s Concordance of ‘soul’ (Psuché - 5590) says both ‘A human Person’ and ‘Breathe of Life’. I see you always wrote ‘Spirit/Soul’… yet I showed you that the two are NOT the same.

Just think now:

• ‘God blew the SOUL into the body of Adam’???
• ‘And the man became a living SOUL’?

Q: What was the state of the man before God blew the breathe of life into him…

A person is a body which is animated by their soul/spirit.

Oh, how close you are to the truth… but you confusingly think ‘Soul’ is the same as ‘Spirit’ (See above)

Now if only you had written:

• “A PERSON is a BODY which is animated by their SPIRIT [that is blown into their body by God].”
• “A SOUL is a BODY which is animated by their BREATHE OF LIFE [that is blown into their body by God]”

In death, the body is no longer animated.

Exactly right: “In death, the body is no longer animated.” … and decays to dust.

The thing about being "dormant" - seed that is dormant still has life within it -

Yes, the SPIRIT still has LIFE IN IT but is:

• ‘Dormant’ meaning ‘Capable of becoming active’…
• ’Sleeping’ meaning ‘Capable of being woken up’
• ‘Inert’ meaning ‘Having Latent energy’
• ‘Resting’ meaning ‘Temporary inactivity’

It is REACTIVATED when PUT BACK INTO A BODY.

therefore, IMO, to say that when one dies they (remembering that a person's totality is comprised of body, soul, spirit) are "dormant" implies "you shall not surely die."

I planted a bulb in spring last year and it grew to display a beautiful flower. Then came winter and it ‘died’… but this year it came to life again and flowered again… the seed in the ground, though died out to the eyes of the world, still had life in it so that it was resurrected in the spring.

The thing is we are discussing Matt. 10:28. We are discussing whether death means death - I think it does.
I see no relevance of the "spirits in prison", "the angels that sinned ---- cast into hell" (tartaroo=Tartarus).

True. Thank you.

‘Death’ in the Body’ or ‘Death in the Spirit’??

You ‘think it does’! Jesus pointed to the Sadducees who believe there is no resurrection of the dead - That all life is gone and the Soul is ‘non-existent’ (to paraphrase!). I keep showing you that it cannot be so since what purpose is there for EVERLASTING DEATH BY DESTRUCTION (a term you refuse to use!*) for the wicked after the judgement of Jesus Christ if there is a non-existence of the Soul when the Soul dies IN THE WORLD?

*You STILL REFUSE to use the term ‘DESTRUCTION’ as in ‘Destruction of the Spirit’… is it not used in Matt 10:28? The BODY can be KILLED but not the Soul… The SOUL can be DESTROYED…

The Greeks used the word ‘Psuché’ in Matthew and it’s terminology is ‘Breathe of life’… So the verse could easily be interpreted as ‘Fear him who can DESTROY BOTH THE BREATHE OF LIFE AND THE BODY…’. Destroying the Breathe of Life (the Spirit) also means the body decays to dust and the SOUL (the person) is also DESTROYED.

I’m seeing you understanding what is being told to you but stubborn to accept it hence your refusal to acknowledge that ‘Death’ is not ‘Destruction’ of the Spirit in spiritual terms. The Spirit is merely dormant (see above) awaiting the resurrection of the body.

In my analogy, the bulb is not ‘NON-EXISTENT’ just because it cannot be seen from above ground (not showing a sign of life). A non-gardener thinks the plant is dead - non-existent… A gardener knows the bulb is existent but merely dormant, resting until it’s resurrection.

And you mentioned something about the lie from Satan that:

• "you shall not surely die."

The lie from Satan was that they would not die IMMEDIATELY IN THE BODY!!!
God meant they would die ETERNALLY by their SPIRIT in the fullness of time.

The fruit was not poisonous. It did not ‘give wisdom and knowledge’. It was the TRUST that was broken. God TRUSTED his image to do the right thing. God gave them Free Will and that free Will meant doing the right thing. Betrayal of trust leads to DEATH OF THE SPIRIT (read: DESTRUCTION of the Spirit!)

 

[Soapy]

Is a living person a living soul or is a living person animated by their soul?
Or is it their spirit which animates the person?
The way I see it is that what is being discussed is not whether a person dies, but is, what does death mean, and initially that is, what does the death of the body mean.
Maybe other religions believe that "you shall not surely die" but Bible believers believe we die, but just define death in different ways, beginning with the death of the body, which is when the spirit leaves the body.
Death of the body is not defined as becoming non existant. Our spirit which goes to God is a part of us after all.

I’m really sorry about this, Brian2, but I’m going to have to agree with you here!!!

 

[Soapy]

Yes it gets a bit complicated.

The complication only exists if there is a wrongful perspective on the matter. The complication comes out of trying to figure out wrongful belief with respect to truthfulness:
1) ‘Person’ is just the ‘modern’ (since 1100 AD) word for what used to be called ‘Soul’: The individual, an entity
2) A Person/Soul is a Spirit along with a container Body with which the Spirit acts in the world. A human Spirit cannot act in the world without a body.
3) A Body is ‘dust of the earth’, a vessel, a container, a vehicle, by which the Spirit of the Person acts and interacts in the world.

- When the body is ‘Killed’ or ‘Dies’, the Spirit cannot act in the world and so goes back to ‘rest in dormancy’ with its maker: ALMIGHTY GOD; Creator of Spirits, awaiting the resurrection in a new or reconstituted body.

- The Spirit is not ‘DEAD’ as viewed BY GOD but is so by LIVING HUMANS since living humans cannot communicate with a dormant Spirit resting with God (Thats why God hates Seances, Spiritualism, Witches, etc., all who claim to be able to be able to ‘ talk to the dead’)

- Because the SPIRIT still EXISTS resting with GOD, the PERSON, consequently ALSO EXISTS.

And that is the error in which the Spirit is said to be the Soul… Because the Soul, the PERSON, exists WITH GOD and in the memories of living PEOPLE (One or Many PERSONS), it is wrongfully believed that it is the SPIRIT. NO!!! One is a CONSEQUENCE OF THE OTHER:

• The Person/Soul exists because the Spirit exists.

Adam's body did exist before receiving life and when we die our bodies do exist for a time without rotting, it goes to the pit, grave.
Our spirit goes to God when we die but still exists as far as we know.
Our soul, as the totality of a person, when the body dies and the spirit goes to God, the soul goes to the place of the dead, hades/sheol.
Everything is separate and the human being, as a human being, no longer exists.

The human being (The Soul) no longer exists IN THE CREATED WORLD. But remember that there is REMEMBRANCE OF THEM…:
- Do we not STILL REMEMBER HITLER / MUSSOLINI / SATAN etc., and their wicked deeds?
- Do we not remember Jesus Christ and his glorious deeds?
- Do we not remember loved ones through stories, photos, owned items of theirs, commemorative grave stones, etc.
- Do we not still remember wickedness and injustice done to us at points in our lives even by those who have passed away?

BUT the parts are there to be resurrected, reassembled, even though the body of the saved will be replaced with the new improved model made to be after the image of the second Adam.
IMO the soul which goes to hades, is not physical, it is spiritual and so has life in it even if it is not really and animating spirit. It is just that, like the body, we don't know how long a soul might last before it fades out, if ever.
It can be destroyed by God however but even then it seems there is something remaining (Mark 9:48) which is alive while it is being destroyed, but I don't see this as hell in the traditional sense of a place of eternal torment.

When God DESTROYS the Spirit, there is nothing left in existence - All is forgotten and there is no remembrance of them. In this regard, Satan, Death, wicked ones, all will be DESTROYED at the end of time after the judgement by Jesus Christ. There will no remembrance of them. No one who goes to everlasting life will ever ‘recall’ a memory of a person, or a moment, of wickedness.

THAT is DESTRUCTION!

I see the need for a resurrection is so that those still in hades, or with the Lord, as spirits, can be united with a body and complete justice be served at the judgement. Some will be saved and some not.

And then I have to disagree with of what you say here!

There is no place called ‘Hades’ in reality. The use of the term is just because of the Greek mythological viewpoint.

‘Spirit’ resting ‘with GOD’ is right… don’t say anything other than that!

 

[amazing grace]

Yes it gets a bit complicated.

Adam's body did exist before receiving life and when we die our bodies do exist for a time without rotting, it goes to the pit, grave.

What exactly do you mean - Adam's body did not exist before receiving life?

Our spirit goes to God when we die but still exists as far as we know.
Our soul, as the totality of a person, when the body dies and the spirit goes to God, the soul goes to the place of the dead, hades/sheol.

The totality of a person, the whole person is body, soul, spirit. One does not exist without the other.

Everything is separate and the human being, as a human being, no longer exists. BUT the parts are there to be resurrected, reassembled, even though the body of the saved will be replaced with the new improved model made to be after the image of the second Adam.

Man is not a trinity divided into three parts but a whole person consisting of the person's body, the person's soul, and the person's spirit.
A man is not an empty shell of a body, but his soul and spirit animate him, making him a living being.

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [1 Thess. 5:23] THE WHOLE COMPLETE PERSON.

IMO the soul which goes to hades, is not physical, it is spiritual and so has life in it even if it is not really and animating spirit. It is just that, like the body, we don't know how long a soul might last before it fades out, if ever.
It can be destroyed by God however but even then it seems there is something remaining (Mark 9:48) which is alive while it is being destroyed, but I don't see this as hell in the traditional sense of a place of eternal torment.

In Mark 9:47 hell = Gehenna = the lake of fire; "worm" Mark 9:48 - skolex - from a root word meaning to lick up, swallow up, consume, hence used of the worm which feeds upon the carcasses or dead bodies. [E.W. Bullinger: A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament]

I see the need for a resurrection is so that those still in hades, or with the Lord, as spirits, can be united with a body and complete justice be served at the judgement. Some will be saved and some not.

This is what happens when we are resurrected according to God: Thus says the LORD God to these dry bones: Behold I will cause breath (ruach = spirit) to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath (ruach = spirit) in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the LORD. [Ezekiel 37: 5,6]
I will cause breath (ruach = spirit) to enter you, and you shall live - haya - 1. to live, have life, remain alive, sustain life, live prosperously, live forever, be quickened, be alive, be restored to life or health; A. (Qal) 1. to live; a. to have life; b. to continue in life, remain alive; c. to sustain life, to live on or upon; d. to live (prosperously); 2. to revive, be quickened; a. from sickness; b. from discouragement; c. from faintness; d. from death

The opposite of life is death.

As for the "spirit returns to God who gave it" - what meaning to you apply here? the spirit of man? the breath of man? the gift of holy spirit which was given to man when they repented and were baptized? ETC.

 

[Brian2]

I’m really sorry about this, Brian2, but I’m going to have to agree with you here!!!

It's an outrage, I must be doing something wrong.

 

[Brian2]

The complication only exists if there is a wrongful perspective on the matter. The complication comes out of trying to figure out wrongful belief with respect to truthfulness:
1) ‘Person’ is just the ‘modern’ (since 1100 AD) word for what used to be called ‘Soul’: The individual, an entity
2) A Person/Soul is a Spirit along with a container Body with which the Spirit acts in the world. A human Spirit cannot act in the world without a body.
3) A Body is ‘dust of the earth’, a vessel, a container, a vehicle, by which the Spirit of the Person acts and interacts in the world.

- When the body is ‘Killed’ or ‘Dies’, the Spirit cannot act in the world and so goes back to ‘rest in dormancy’ with its maker: ALMIGHTY GOD; Creator of Spirits, awaiting the resurrection in a new or reconstituted body.

- The Spirit is not ‘DEAD’ as viewed BY GOD but is so by LIVING HUMANS since living humans cannot communicate with a dormant Spirit resting with God (Thats why God hates Seances, Spiritualism, Witches, etc., all who claim to be able to be able to ‘ talk to the dead’)

- Because the SPIRIT still EXISTS resting with GOD, the PERSON, consequently ALSO EXISTS.

And that is the error in which the Spirit is said to be the Soul… Because the Soul, the PERSON, exists WITH GOD and in the memories of living PEOPLE (One or Many PERSONS), it is wrongfully believed that it is the SPIRIT. NO!!! One is a CONSEQUENCE OF THE OTHER:

• The Person/Soul exists because the Spirit exists.

The human being (The Soul) no longer exists IN THE CREATED WORLD. But remember that there is REMEMBRANCE OF THEM…:
- Do we not STILL REMEMBER HITLER / MUSSOLINI / SATAN etc., and their wicked deeds?
- Do we not remember Jesus Christ and his glorious deeds?
- Do we not remember loved ones through stories, photos, owned items of theirs, commemorative grave stones, etc.
- Do we not still remember wickedness and injustice done to us at points in our lives even by those who have passed away?


When God DESTROYS the Spirit, there is nothing left in existence - All is forgotten and there is no remembrance of them. In this regard, Satan, Death, wicked ones, all will be DESTROYED at the end of time after the judgement by Jesus Christ. There will no remembrance of them. No one who goes to everlasting life will ever ‘recall’ a memory of a person, or a moment, of wickedness.

THAT is DESTRUCTION!

And then I have to disagree with of what you say here!

There is no place called ‘Hades’ in reality. The use of the term is just because of the Greek mythological viewpoint.

‘Spirit’ resting ‘with GOD’ is right… don’t say anything other than that!

OK, we don't agree completely. That's OK.
In your writing I am not sure why you have Spirit and Soul, when referring to a human, beginning with a capital letter. It sort of makes me think that you are talking about God, as in the Spirit of God.

 

[Brian2]

What exactly do you mean - Adam's body did not exist before receiving life?

I said "Adam's body did exist before receiving life". It was part of what I was saying to show that the body and soul and soirit can exist when the spirit has departed the body.

The totality of a person, the whole person is body, soul, spirit. One does not exist without the other.

I get the totality of the person is the soul in Gen 2:7. Body and spirit unite and man becomes a living soul.
Also that the soul is the totality of the person is a basic meaning of "soul".

Man is not a trinity divided into three parts but a whole person consisting of the person's body, the person's soul, and the person's spirit.
A man is not an empty shell of a body, but his soul and spirit animate him, make him into a living being.

I realise that the meaning of soul and spirit is not always the same in every verse. But what is the difference between soul and spirit in your view?

The opposite of life is death.

But not necessarily "non existence".

As for the "spirit returns to God who gave it" - what meaning to you apply here? the spirit of man? the breath of man? the gift of holy spirit which was given to man when they repented and were baptized? ETC.

Good question.
IMO Adam was formed from the dust and given spirit from God, life that animated the body and so Adam became a living soul.
In Adam and in each of us, this spirit, life, is a life force but when set up in our body, it's life becomes more than just a force, this life starts learning and knowing etc through the body and making decisions etc. It is this spirit which is by nature alive and not the body (the dust of the ground).
At the death of our body our spirit, life force, goes back to God who gave it.
This is where I find it hard to divide the soul from the spirit.
I have come to believe that the spirit is the totality of the person after the death of the body, so the spirit is the soul after the death of the body, and this soul goes to God who gave it. It is by then more than just a life force, it is the essence of the person.
IMO this spiritual soul is kept safe in sheol/hades until the resurrection.
And it gets more complicated here since that sheol/hades thing happened to all people before Jesus and then I believe those in Christ at death, go to be with the Lord instead of to hades.
Paul was torn between dying and being with the Lord or staying on earth and working more.
Phil 1:22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

 

[amazing grace]

Please remember that the Greeks, and the the language of the Greeks, had a slightly different idea of ‘Spirit’ and ‘Soul’ than the Jews (Hebrews). In fact it seems you are exactly aligning your view with theirs in that they almost cannot distinguish between the two. Strong’s Concordance of ‘soul’ (Psuché - 5590) says both ‘A human Person’ and ‘Breathe of Life’. I see you always wrote ‘Spirit/Soul’… yet I showed you that the two are NOT the same.

Just think now:

• ‘God blew the SOUL into the body of Adam’???
• ‘And the man became a living SOUL’?

Q: What was the state of the man before God blew the breathe of life into him…

I was responding to the context of Matt. 10:28 when I said "There is nothing said about SPIRIT in the verse or the context."
Man was formed from the dust of the ground
and God breathed into his nostrils (napah (Qal) to breathe, blow)
the breath (nesama 1. breath, spirit A. breath (of God) B. breath (of man) C. every breathing thing D. spirit (of man)
of life, (hay [masculine noun] relatives, life A. life B. sustenance, maintenance)
and the man became a living soul. (nepash - 1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion; A. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man; B. living being, C. living being (with life in the blood), D. the man himself, self, person or individual, E. seat of the appetites, F. seat of emotions and passions)

So, man was a form and God breathed/blew into his nostrils the breath of life, sustenance and the man became a living being.

Oh, how close you are to the truth… but you confusingly think ‘Soul’ is the same as ‘Spirit’ (See above)
Now if only you had written:

• “A PERSON is a BODY which is animated by their SPIRIT [that is blown into their body by God].”
• “A SOUL is a BODY which is animated by their BREATHE OF LIFE [that is blown into their body by God]”

above.

Exactly right: “In death, the body is no longer animated.” … and decays to dust.

Yes, the SPIRIT still has LIFE IN IT but is:

• ‘Dormant’ meaning ‘Capable of becoming active’…
• ’Sleeping’ meaning ‘Capable of being woken up’
• ‘Inert’ meaning ‘Having Latent energy’
• ‘Resting’ meaning ‘Temporary inactivity’

It is REACTIVATED when PUT BACK INTO A BODY.

Yes, "sleep" is a metaphor for death because our dead bodies will be raised.
This is when it is reactivated: God will lay sinews upon us and cover us with skin and God will cause breath (ruach spirit) to enter us and put breath (ruach spirit) in us and we shall live.

I planted a bulb in spring last year and it grew to display a beautiful flower. Then came winter and it ‘died’… but this year it came to life again and flowered again… the seed in the ground, though died out to the eyes of the world, still had life in it so that it was resurrected in the spring.

If something has life - it is not dead. If something quits breathing it is no longer alive having nothing to sustain it. Death is the end of life until the resurrection.

‘Death’ in the Body’ or ‘Death in the Spirit’??

You ‘think it does’! Jesus pointed to the Sadducees who believe there is no resurrection of the dead - That all life is gone and the Soul is ‘non-existent’ (to paraphrase!). I keep showing you that it cannot be so since what purpose is there for EVERLASTING DEATH BY DESTRUCTION (a term you refuse to use!*) for the wicked after the judgement of Jesus Christ if there is a non-existence of the Soul when the Soul dies IN THE WORLD?

I have never said "there is no resurrection of the dead". Life is gone UNTIL THE RESURRECTION.
"everlasting death by destruction". Maybe not in those same words but haven't I mentioned "the second death"?
A person, their whole being, consists of a body and soul and spirit and does die when they quit breathing having nothing to sustain them but will be raised to life again and judged . . . that is when the soul and body can be destroyed in Gehenna, the lake of fire.

*You STILL REFUSE to use the term ‘DESTRUCTION’ as in ‘Destruction of the Spirit’… is it not used in Matt 10:28? The BODY can be KILLED but not the Soul… The SOUL can be DESTROYED…

The Greeks used the word ‘Psuché’ in Matthew and it’s terminology is ‘Breathe of life’… So the verse could easily be interpreted as ‘Fear him who can DESTROY BOTH THE BREATHE OF LIFE AND THE BODY…’. Destroying the Breathe of Life (the Spirit) also means the body decays to dust and the SOUL (the person) is also DESTROYED.

See how you interchange "soul" and "spirit"? psuche is Greek for SOUL, pneuma is Greek for SPIRIT.
Man cannot KILL the body and soul - man cannot and does not have the ability to DESTROY your ETERNAL DESTINATION but FEAR GOD who CAN DESTROY both body and soul in Gehenna, the second death. ETERNAL DAMNATION NEVER TO RISE AGAIN -

I’m seeing you understanding what is being told to you but stubborn to accept it hence your refusal to acknowledge that ‘Death’ is not ‘Destruction’ of the Spirit in spiritual terms. The Spirit is merely dormant (see above) awaiting the resurrection of the body.

In my analogy, the bulb is not ‘NON-EXISTENT’ just because it cannot be seen from above ground (not showing a sign of life). A non-gardener thinks the plant is dead - non-existent… A gardener knows the bulb is existent but merely dormant, resting until it’s resurrection.

And you mentioned something about the lie from Satan that:

• "you shall not surely die."

The lie from Satan was that they would not die IMMEDIATELY IN THE BODY!!!
God meant they would die ETERNALLY by their SPIRIT in the fullness of time.

The fruit was not poisonous. It did not ‘give wisdom and knowledge’. It was the TRUST that was broken. God TRUSTED his image to do the right thing. God gave them Free Will and that free Will meant doing the right thing. Betrayal of trust leads to DEATH OF THE SPIRIT (read: DESTRUCTION of the Spirit!)

Gen. 2:13 "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall NOT eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. . . . (3:4) But the serpent said to the woman 'You shall not surely die'. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. (they grasped at equality with God). . . . (3:22) Behold, the man has become as one of us in knowing good and evil.

Correct, a spiritual death occurred in the moment they sinned as in their relationship with God which is why Jesus Christ came, died and was resurrected to reconcile us back to God - correct a spiritual death but also physical death as in - "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin" (Rom. 5:12) - "For the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:23)

 

[Soapy]

OK, we don't agree completely. That's OK.

(That’s how I prefer it… I hate it when I am forced to agree with you or when you agree with me…. It’s a debate… no one agrees in a debate)
….. Ok, that was a lie!!!

In your writing I am not sure why you have Spirit and Soul, when referring to a human, beginning with a capital letter. It sort of makes me think that you are talking about God, as in the Spirit of God.

I capitalise only for emphasis: With Spirit it is The THING (the created actioning entity : Spirit) rather than the ACTION (‘A spirited horse’: highly energetic).

‘Soul’ is just habit…. Does it worry you?

Please do not ever think I’m saying I’m talking about the Spirit as in the SPIRIT OF GOD… there is no contextual link there. I capitalise the same for ‘Person’ in context of an emphatic relationship of sameness with ‘Soul’.

Notice that I say, ‘The Spirit OF MAN’ and ‘The Spirit OF GOD’. The context is in the italicised part. But even if I just say, ‘the Spirit’ there is absolutely no connected context with GOD apart from that God is THE CREATOR of the Spirit that is put into man (in fact, any living entity in the created world!)

Let me ask you - in truth I was going to ask this question to @Amazing Angel…( ooh, I capitalised the ‘a’ in amazing angel where it wasn’t written so… am I referring to some other poster??):

• How many Souls were saved in the Ark that Noah built?
• How many People / Persons were saved in the Ark that Noah built?

Were the number of Souls saved the same as the number of Persons / People?

Were the saved Souls the same Persons / People?

The ancients referred to ‘the self’, ‘the individual’, as ‘the Soul’. Since 1100AD the same was called ‘Person’ and ‘People’.
From Greek into Latin: Persona meaning ‘A human Being’ into English: a Person.

 

[Soapy]

I was responding to the context of Matt. 10:28 when I said "There is nothing said about SPIRIT in the verse or the context."
Man was formed from the dust of the ground
and God breathed into his nostrils (napah (Qal) to breathe, blow)
the breath (nesama 1. breath, spirit A. breath (of God) B. breath (of man) C. every breathing thing D. spirit (of man)
of life, (hay [masculine noun] relatives, life A. life B. sustenance, maintenance)
and the man became a living soul. (nepash - 1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion; A. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man; B. living being, C. living being (with life in the blood), D. the man himself, self, person or individual, E. seat of the appetites, F. seat of emotions and passions)

So, man was a form and God breathed/blew into his nostrils the breath of life, sustenance and the man became a living being.

above.

Yes, "sleep" is a metaphor for death because our dead bodies will be raised.
This is when it is reactivated: God will lay sinews upon us and cover us with skin and God will cause breath (ruach spirit) to enter us and put breath (ruach spirit) in us and we shall live.

If something has life - it is not dead. If something quits breathing it is no longer alive having nothing to sustain it. Death is the end of life until the resurrection.

I have never said "there is no resurrection of the dead". Life is gone UNTIL THE RESURRECTION.
"everlasting death by destruction". Maybe not in those same words but haven't I mentioned "the second death"?
A person, their whole being, consists of a body and soul and spirit and does die when they quit breathing having nothing to sustain them but will be raised to life again and judged . . . that is when the soul and body can be destroyed in Gehenna, the lake of fire.

See how you interchange "soul" and "spirit"? psuche is Greek for SOUL, pneuma is Greek for SPIRIT.
Man cannot KILL the body and soul - man cannot and does not have the ability to DESTROY your ETERNAL DESTINATION but FEAR GOD who CAN DESTROY both body and soul in Gehenna, the second death. ETERNAL DAMNATION NEVER TO RISE AGAIN -

Gen. 2:13 "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall NOT eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. . . . (3:4) But the serpent said to the woman 'You shall not surely die'. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. (they grasped at equality with God). . . . (3:22) Behold, the man has become as one of us in knowing good and evil.

Correct, a spiritual death occurred in the moment they sinned as in their relationship with God which is why Jesus Christ came, died and was resurrected to reconcile us back to God - correct a spiritual death but also physical death as in - "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin" (Rom. 5:12) - "For the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 6:23)

‘Death through Sin’…. This is referring to EVERLASTING DEATH - the destruction at the end of time. It does not pertain to ‘Death in the body’ by being killed or natural dying. I keep showing you that you must think in the SPIRITUAL but you cannot do that - you keep thinking in the FLESH…! That is why you are not understanding what is be in v said to you!

Dying in the flesh is not an end to LIFE in SPIRITUAL TERMS… the SPIRIT cannot DIE or bd KILLED so how does death in the body mean an end to life - Non-Existence, as you would put it. GOD who created Spirits of man, still has Spiritual sight of those passed IN THE WORLD. And those demon Spirits from the flood ‘died in the world’ BY THE BODIES THEY MADE AND OCCUPIED but were IMPRISONED IN THE SPIRIT in ‘chains in darkness’. So, though DEAD TO THS WORLD they are not ‘DEAD TO GOD’ but LOCKED AWAY AWAITKNG the DAY IF THEIR DESTRUCTION (Destruction… a term you seem so reluctant to use and so creates an inhibition to your understanding…: If destruction leads to non-existence, how is simply dying also a non-existence. Do the dead come back into existence in God, or are you still sticking to seeing the truth through the created world eye-view?

 

[amazing grace]

I said "Adam's body did exist before receiving life". It was part of what I was saying to show that the body and soul and soirit can exist when the spirit has departed the body.

I apologize that I misquoted you. The body cannot live (exist - to be) without its soul and spirit. It is the soul and spirit that give the body life, animation.

I get the totality of the person is the soul in Gen 2:7. Body and spirit unite and man becomes a living soul.
Also that the soul is the totality of the person is a basic meaning of "soul".

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [1 Thess. 5:23] That is the totality and constitution of a living soul.
Which is exactly what Adam was given to animate his body when God formed from the dust of the ground:
Man was formed from the dust of the ground
and God breathed into his nostrils (napah (Qal) to breathe, blow)
the breath (nesama 1. breath, spirit A. breath (of God) B. breath (of man) C. every breathing thing D. spirit (of man)
of life, (hay [masculine noun] relatives, life A. life B. sustenance, maintenance)
and the man became a living soul. (nepash - 1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion; A. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man; B. living being, C. living being (with life in the blood), D. the man himself, self, person or individual, E. seat of the appetites, F. seat of emotions and passions)

I realise that the meaning of soul and spirit is not always the same in every verse. But what is the difference between soul and spirit in your view?

The soul as it relates to man is the breath of life; the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing (of animals and men); that in which there is life, a living being, a living soul; the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.) and the spirit as it relates to man is not much difference as you can see from this definition under pneuma - the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated; the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides, the soul and the soul as it relates to man.
Bottom line the soul and spirit are what gives the body life.

But not necessarily "non existence".

Sheesh! Would it had been better if I had said the opposite of life is death, as in no longer living which includes no breath life, no thought, no knowledge, no wisdom. Now, according to the definition of spirit and soul in relation to man, in death the body is no longer animated; the complete man of body and soul and spirit is dead.

Good question.
IMO Adam was formed from the dust and given spirit from God, life that animated the body and so Adam became a living soul.
In Adam and in each of us, this spirit, life, is a life force but when set up in our body, it's life becomes more than just a force, this life starts learning and knowing etc through the body and making decisions etc. It is this spirit which is by nature alive and not the body (the dust of the ground).
At the death of our body our spirit, life force, goes back to God who gave it.
This is where I find it hard to divide the soul from the spirit.
I have come to believe that the spirit is the totality of the person after the death of the body, so the spirit is the soul after the death of the body, and this soul goes to God who gave it. It is by then more than just a life force, it is the essence of the person.
IMO this spiritual soul is kept safe in sheol/hades until the resurrection.
And it gets more complicated here since that sheol/hades thing happened to all people before Jesus and then I believe those in Christ at death, go to be with the Lord instead of to hades.

You said: "At the death of our body our spirit, life force, goes back to God who gave it." I agree. And without the spirit the body is dead - a dead soul, a dead body no more life until the resurrection when God again breathes life into us. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead. (James 2:26)
A dead body (person) is considered a dead soul - Whoever touches the dead body (Hebrew nephesh = soul) of any person (man) shall be unclean seven days. [Numbers 19:11] (also in other verses)

Paul was torn between dying and being with the Lord or staying on earth and working more.
Phil 1:22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Paul's desire was to be with Christ. He was looking forward to the resurrection when he would be with Christ which would be far better than life or death.
When we depart (die), no matter the length of time, our next waking thought or existence will be with Christ.

 

[amazing grace]

‘Death through Sin’…. This is referring to EVERLASTING DEATH - the destruction at the end of time. It does not pertain to ‘Death in the body’ by being killed or natural dying. I keep showing you that you must think in the SPIRITUAL but you cannot do that - you keep thinking in the FLESH…! That is why you are not understanding what is be in v said to you!

Well, when did the conversation change from physical death to spiritual death? I must have missed it because that is not how this started out. It started out with talking about Jesus not being God, the temptations set before Jesus then Brian2 brought in Matt. 10:28.

Yes the man Jesus was mortal and could die and that means for Him and for everyone else that His physical body died, but His soul stayed alive.
Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Jesus sacrificed His body, the life of the body, and got an immortal body back.
And the grave could not hold Him because He was sinless and not worthy of the death that came because of sin.
Acts 2:24 But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.

So it all started out with the death of the soul and whether the "soul" died when a person died, i.e. physical death.
How do you see that Romans 5:12 is speaking of "spiritual death" and not "natural dying"? Sin causes our first death, "natural death" and if a person is not saved, it will cause the second death.

Dying in the flesh is not an end to LIFE in SPIRITUAL TERMS… the SPIRIT cannot DIE or bd KILLED so how does death in the body mean an end to life - Non-Existence, as you would put it. GOD who created Spirits of man, still has Spiritual sight of those passed IN THE WORLD. And those demon Spirits from the flood ‘died in the world’ BY THE BODIES THEY MADE AND OCCUPIED but were IMPRISONED IN THE SPIRIT in ‘chains in darkness’. So, though DEAD TO THS WORLD they are not ‘DEAD TO GOD’ but LOCKED AWAY AWAITKNG the DAY IF THEIR DESTRUCTION (Destruction… a term you seem so reluctant to use and so creates an inhibition to your understanding…: If destruction leads to non-existence, how is simply dying also a non-existence. Do the dead come back into existence in God, or are you still sticking to seeing the truth through the created world eye-view?

Death is the opposite of life. When a person dies, stops breathing they are a dead soul, the body turns to dust and the spirit goes back to God who gave it. What would be your definition of "spirit" used here? Is it the spirit of man within man? Is it the life force which animates man? Is it the gift of holy spirit given to us when we Repent and are baptized for the remission of sin? Something else?

I really wish I had never used that terminology because ya'll are really hung up on that. To die is to no longer have being as in breath, thoughts, knowledge, or emotions. The whole complete person of body and soul and spirit cease to be until the resurrection.

I have NEVER denied the destruction of body and soul in Gehenna, the lake of fire, the second death.