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Jesus drank alcohol

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Merlin, Oct 2, 2005.

  1. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    actually, though, Binyamin just told me that thou shalt not murder is probably the better translation
     
  2. Merlin

    Merlin Active Member

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    is that another way of saying God got it wrong now and then, so he sent a new revelation to have another try to get it right?
     
  3. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    did you read my posts ? biblical quotes to prove Jesus did drink acholic wine, if we stick to the bible we always get accurate knowledge i would say.
     
  4. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    but does it fit in with Gods word the bible, these new revelations?
     
  5. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Christiangirl,

    I have no axe to grind (believe me), and if you read religion as 'thou shalt not consume alcohol' - all I can say is "Good for you". As it happens, I have stopped drinking alcohol (but not for religious reasons).

    What would you say of the 'Benedictine Monks' though, who produced their fine liqueur ? - are they, in your view, going against God's will ? (I only quoted that one example, but there are others).
     
  6. Harvster

    Harvster Member

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    My opinion is that drinking is wrong and also I believe that Christ never drank. My reasoning is two fold. Firstly the word for wine in the NT is Oinos which translates as either literally or figuratively wine and in most of the scriptures where it states that Christ drank wine it is only shown as that word. Whenever the bible is talking about alcoholic wine it uses a stronger word before Oinos. This could be a word for strong or intoxicating or even drunk and so on. My second reason for believing that Christ did not drink alcohol and why we should not is as follows (this may get complicated). In Hebrews 5:10 it states that Christ is a High Priest. From there if we look at Leviticus 10:9 we see that it states that the High Priest even a Priest was not to drink wine or strong drink when serving in the Temple. When we look at the NT we see that Christ referred to his body as the Temple (this is shown where He states that the temple will be torn down and be raised again in three days [His resurrection]). With this in mind we can ascertain that Christ did not drink alcoholic wine as everyday He was serving in the temple (his own body).
    We also read in the NT in 1 Peter 2:5 that we also are a holy Priesthood as is Christ. Further to this the NT states that our body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit therefore I believe that it is fair to say that as Christ we are also serving daily in the temple. Therefore one can understand that we ourselves should not drink alcohol as we are to follow Christ’s example and live accordingly.
     
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  7. angellous_evangellous

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    This is a nice fantasy.

    The ancients knew how to make wine. When the wine was brought to the "master of the feast," the guy tasted the wine and said that it was wonderful. If it was non-alcoholic, this feller would have been insulted. Instead, he complimented the perfection of the wine. Low alcohol content theories are horse-****. If alcohol content were so low, why would there be continuous commands not to get drunk in the NT? And specifically, not to get drunk on wine? The biblical command, if you want to follow it, is not to get drunk - it is drink responsibly, not total abstinance.

    The Bible teaches that wine is a gift that should not be abused. A similar example is sex. Both are regulated gifts.

    Wine is a good gift from God:

    Psalm 104.10-18
    10 You make springs gush forth in the valleys; they flow between the hills,
    11 giving drink to every wild animal; the wild asses quench their thirst.
    12 By the streams the birds of the air have their habitation; they sing among the branches.
    13 From your lofty abode you water the mountains; the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work. 14 You cause the grass to grow for the cattle, and plants for people to use,to bring forth food from the earth,

    15 and wine to gladden the human heart, oil to make the face shine, and bread to strengthen the human heart.

    16 The trees of the Lord are watered abundantly, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted.
    17 In them the birds build their nests; the stork has its home in the fir trees.
    18 The high mountains are for the wild goats; the rocks are a refuge for the coneys.

    Wine is a blessing from God

    Pr 3:10
    then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.

    In 1 Corinthians 11, God's people are getting drunk when they gather for the Lord's Supper.

    20Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper,
    21for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk.
    22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall (Z)I praise you? In this I will not praise you.

    Instead of teaching that alcohol is bad and demanding total absintance, Paul says "do it at home" by means of a rhetorical question, "do you not have houses in which to eat and drink?" Well, they had been eating food and drinking alcohol, which is why some of them were drunk. The church is not to gather and get drunk and call it the Lord's Supper, but are to drink at home, or at least not party at the Lord's table.

    This rhetorical question is followed up by a command:
    34If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment The remaining matters I will arrange when I come
     
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  8. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Angellos_Evangellous;

    There are none so deaf as they who will not hear....................:biglaugh:

    P.S Good post!
     
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  9. angellous_evangellous

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    In John, when the good wine is complimented, it is not "stong," but it is considered excellent. The guests were already affected by the wine, and Jesus was giving them more alcohol, and the master of the feast was astonished by this. Usually at this time the lesser grade wine was given. However, Jesus was giving some good stuff.

    "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now." 11This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.

    Methuo, which is translated above as "drunk freely" literally means "drink to intoxication," "get drunk," or "drink well." This was a wedding feast, and people were drinking heavily, and Jesus gave them more, and was complimented for it.
     
  10. angellous_evangellous

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    I just noticed an interesting relationship between 1 Cor 11 and Psalm 104.

    I quoted Ps. 104.15

    15 and wine to gladden the human heart, oil to make the face shine, and bread to strengthen the human heart.

    The Lord's supper is alcoholic wine and bread, which brings healing through communion with Jesus. Oil is cleansing medicine...

    Knockout
     
  11. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Even better.;)


    I would make a suggestion though; (I hoped you would have understood the last hint) - there is no point in trying to force your belief onto someone who will not accept it.........
     
  12. angellous_evangellous

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    :bonk: I am not trying to force anyone. There may be plenty of other "Christians" reading it that can be persuaded by reason. :cool:
     
  13. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Ah, but those that you will be able to persuade don't need persuading, they are already on your 'side'.............:D

    This is one thing I personally find so sad about Religion; even within one Faith "Christianity" - there have to be strictly laid down demarkation lines; I ask you - do you think Jesus Christ would want us to spend hours arguing over these minutiae ?
     
  14. angellous_evangellous

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    I disagree. I often change my mind because of sound arguments, and I have many friends that do the same, particularly with matters concerning what the Bible means.

    Jesus was a teacher of the Hebrew Bible. He met with Nicodemaus at night, discussing the meaning of the Hebrew Scriptures as well as some of what may be original teachings of Jesus (John 3). The man who buried Jesus was also a secret follower. So yes, I do think that Jesus talked with people at length about his teachings, and tried to persuade them. Also, it worked occasionally, and he considered it worth his time.

    EDIT: Now, what is minute? Marriage is one of the most important choices that one can make in life. If Christians are going to treat their children badly because they marry an unbeliever, which the NT does not condemn, it is not a mintue detail of the faith to correct this problem. If Christians are going to fire their pastor because he drinks a small bit of alcohol, and it is not forbidden in the teachings of the NT, it is not a minute detail.

    From your point of view, it seems like you have classified people as not being able to be persuaded to anything. However, most of us who believe in anything heard or read something, and by faith or reason we were convinced and chose to follow a teaching. Now in the same way we can be shown arguments and teachings that may be better. Some Christians base their faith on interpretations of the Bible, and that is what I do.
     
  15. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    It's not that he was wrong. It's that we have changed so much that his old rules just don't make any sense anymore.
     
  16. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Nope, no point. But we're at a religious forum where that's what everybody does. Why are you always trying to convince others not to argue? :tsk:
     
  17. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Actually, I was going to say something silly, as in a Joke; but I realize that If I do come across that way, perhaps there is a need to explain that valid point.

    I don't know where this comes from, but it is something endemic in me; I Need to see everyone around me happy. Daft isn't it ?

    I seem to have to stive for peace - all my life I have found that adversity (even if I am not personally involved) is something that really upsets me. I live my whole life through trying to soothe bashed egos - wheneverthere is a dispute, I will always try to be a mediator - it is an instinctive emotional knee jerk reaction over which I have no control.

    I abhore seeing people upset, or hurt - I actually seem to 'pick up' the hurt vicariously, and cannot rest until everyone is OK.

    I must admit, it has often occured to me that a forum where something as sensitive as religious beliefs are being discussed is no place for someone like me; The only way I can verbalize the way I feel is by quoting lyrics;

    Peace.
    peace will
    Peace will come
    And let it begin with me.

    We.
    We need.
    We need peace,
    And let it begin with me.

    Oh, my own life
    Is all I can hope to control.
    Oh let my life
    be lived for the good.
    Good of my soul.
    Let it bring.

    Peace.
    Sweet Peace.
    Peace will come,
    and let it begin with me........

    Words by Tom Paxton.

    absurd isn't it ? unfortunately that is the way I am;.........well, you did ask......:D
     
  18. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    No, it's not absurd that you should want that. It's absurd that you should try to make the people in a forum specifically for debating adhere to that :D. But to each his own... :)
     
  19. angellous_evangellous

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    So Michel, you are trying to persuade people to peace who can't be persuaded?

    Hmmm
     
  20. Harvster

    Harvster Member

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    Angellous,

    Yes that may be true however, these people were already as stoned as a fart as you stated. The bible makes itself very clear that Drunkeness is a sin. Why would Christ allow people to fall into sinfulness further by making them more drunk than before. This is shown in Psalm 23 ....He leads me not into temptation but delivers me from evil. Does God (Christ) ever go back on His word? I certainly hope not 'cause the God I believe in don't tell no porkies!!

    As I stated before this is my own opinion and it was how I was brought up. My family have been Christians for a very long time and I’m sure you would appreciate this is a lot of principle to be brought up on. Please note I am not bragging but making a point and that is it is not always what you read or have heard but is how you are raised that determines what you believe even when you chose your own path to follow. This is where the difference in opinion comes. As you I also base what I believe on my own interpretation and revelation of the bible and it is the only way a Christian should live.



    Michel,

    I am afraid that this is why there are so many arguments within the Christian faith as each person is brought up differently. Legalistic Christianity which emerged in the early 1900’s was the main cause of all these debates as it was at this time that churches stated what you can and cant do i.e. dancing and going to the cinemas are wrong. It is unfortunate that the church went through this period and dwelt on the things that are not important within the Christian faith, however I believe that in many respects we have now gone to far the opposite way and became to liberal where we accept anything and everything. I am not imply that this person or that person is wrong but suggesting that we follow the bible when it states to be in the world but not of the world. I by no means am trying to force my beliefs onto any one as I respect what others believe.:D
     
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