Jesus drank alcohol

[michel]

Seriously guys, has this thread come to an end ?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Why do some Christian groups ban drinking wine, even to celebrate the last supper? If wine was good enough for Jesus, why should we settle for fruit juice?

In the original greek manuscipts the word used was FRUIT OF THE VINE. The translators changed it to wine. That is why there is an issue. The Romans drank so Paul and his followers altered some of the teachings to get the Gentiles to accept the doctrine they were preaching. The bible says it is o.k to drink then it says it is not O.K. If we were to follow the bible in terms of what is allowable and what is not. A person can get quite confused on what is the law according to the Bible in regards to alcohol consumption.

 

[dan]

Well, Merlin seems to be utterly unconcerned with what the Bible actually says. He prefers to draw inferences from what he was pretty sure it said. No need to actually check or verify.

 

[Merlin]

Well, Merlin seems to be utterly unconcerned with what the Bible actually says. He prefers to draw inferences from what he was pretty sure it said. No need to actually check or verify.

I think you must be fair. I am unconcerned with what you say the Bible says. There are actually Christian belief traditions that interpret the Bible in a different way. You will not know until the moment you die whether you are right or you are wrong. You choose to believe the interpretation you have been given, when it is clearly nonsense.

The Scriptures are full of references to people being drunk. If wine was non-alcoholic, how did that happen?

Would you like some of those references?

 

[Merlin]

Well, Merlin seems to be utterly unconcerned with what the Bible actually says. He prefers to draw inferences from what he was pretty sure it said. No need to actually check or verify.

Some references to wine and drunkenness

Ge 9:21 and he drank of the wine, and became drunk, and lay uncovered in his tent.

De 29:6 you have not eaten bread, and you have not drunk wine or strong drink; that you may know that I am the LORD your God.


De 32:42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh--with the blood of the slain and the captives, from the long-haired heads of the enemy.'


1Sa 1:15 But Hannah answered, "No, my lord, I am a woman sorely troubled; I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but I have been pouring out my soul before the LORD.


1Sa 25:36 And Abigail came to Nabal; and, lo, he was holding a feast in his house, like the feast of a king. And Nabal's heart was merry within him, for he was very drunk; so she told him nothing at all until the morning light.

2Sa 11:13 And David invited him, and he ate in his presence and drank, so that he made him drunk; and in the evening he went out to lie on his couch with the servants of his lord, but he did not go down to his house.


1Ki 16:9 But his servant Zimri, commander of half his chariots, conspired against him. When he was at Tirzah, drinking himself drunk in the house of Arza, who was over the household in Tirzah,

1Ki 20:16 And they went out at noon, while Benhadad was drinking himself drunk in the booths, he and the thirty-two kings who helped him.

Isa 29:9 Stupefy yourselves and be in a stupor, blind yourselves and be blind! Be drunk, but not with wine; stagger, but not with strong drink!

Isa 49:26 I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with wine. Then all flesh shall know that I am the LORD your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."

Isa 51:21 Therefore hear this, you who are afflicted, who are drunk, but not with wine:

Jer 25:27 "Then you shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Drink, be drunk and vomit, fall and rise no more, because of the sword which I am sending among you.'

Jer 48:26 "Make him drunk, because he magnified himself against the LORD; so that Moab shall wallow in his vomit, and he too shall be held in derision.

Jer 51:39 While they are inflamed I will prepare them a feast and make them drunk, till they swoon away and sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake, says the LORD.

La 4:21 Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, dweller in the land of Uz; but to you also the cup shall pass; you shall become drunk and strip yourself bare.

Eze 39:19 And you shall eat fat till you are filled, and drink blood till you are drunk, at the sacrificial feast which I am preparing for you.

Ob 1:16 For as you have drunk upon my holy mountain, all the nations round about shall drink; they shall drink, and stagger, and shall be as though they had not been.

Hab 2:15 Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink of the cup of his wrath, and makes them drunk, to gaze on their shame!

Lu 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,


Ac 2:15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day;


1Co 11:21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and another is drunk.


Eph 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit,


1Th 5:7 For those who sleep sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.


Re 17:2 with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and with the wine of whose fornication the dwellers on earth have become drunk."

 

[Aqualung]

One of dan's first posts stated that only about half of the words that translate to "wine" are alcoholic. Notice how the only time it speaks of getting drunk it is a bad thing. Maybe the only times it says it's okay to drink wine is when the word for "wine" is non alcoholic.

 

[Darkdale]

One of dan's first posts stated that only about half of the words that translate to "wine" are alcoholic. Notice how the only time it speaks of getting drunk it is a bad thing. Maybe the only times it says it's okay to drink wine is when the word for "wine" is non alcoholic.

There seems to be good reason to believe that wine was drank at Jewish feasts and so little reason to believe that Jesus never drank wine at all... though the bible, like all religions, makes it very clear that drunkenness is wrong and it makes you look like a Buffoon. I've had many a Buffoon experience, so if you won't take it from the Havamal, the Koran or the Bible... take it from me!

 

[dan]

One of dan's first posts stated that only about half of the words that translate to "wine" are alcoholic. Notice how the only time it speaks of getting drunk it is a bad thing. Maybe the only times it says it's okay to drink wine is when the word for "wine" is non alcoholic.

For some reason this fact has gone ignored through the entire thread while proponents of alcohol continue to chant their litany that Jesus drank wine.

 

[Aqualung]

yeah, well, that's just what happens sometimes...

 

[Merlin]

In the original greek manuscipts the word used was FRUIT OF THE VINE. The translators changed it to wine.
consumption.

I would guess your first language is not English, so maybe you do not know that it is an expression not a literal meaning.

We also have expressions such as fruits of the Earth, fruits of our labors etc

"The young couple spent 10 years building their house, and then sat back to enjoy the fruits of their labors". Clearly this does not mean a few apples from the garden.

So 'fruit of the vine' could be reduced, could be grapes or could be wine.

 

[Merlin]

while proponents of alcohol continue to chant their litany

Not a worthy comment from an honourable man. Nobody is promoting alcohol. We are discussing historical events.

For example, if somebody was arguing that people did not sacrifice animals in the old Testament, I would argue that they did. But I would not be proposing or supporting animal sacrifice. Just discussing history.

It is the same here. You don't know, and I don't know whether Jesus and his disciples drank wine that was alcoholic. That is the truth. Nobody actually knows.

It is clearly important to you that to meet your current faith restrictions he did not. I am basing my beliefs on a 'balance of probability' argument, not any known facts because there are none. They are:-

Jesus was brought up as a devout Jew, and they have wine in their rituals. So it is likely he drank it.
In those days, food and water were polluted, and people preferred to drink beer and wine (albeit weaker than today).
Jesus was at that time a mortal man, who would breath, eat, drink, and yes, move his bowels. Therefore he was just as prone as anybody else to food poisoning.
People had not discovered Germs so they did not know that boiling water was useful. They just knew that something with alcohol in it with a meal, on average, stops them getting diarrhoea etc.
Grape juice ferments naturally within hours unless huge efforts are made to refrigerate it, so wine occurs spontaneously. Just the few days needed to bring the crushed juice down from the Mountain Vineyards on the back of a donkey would be enough.

QED

 

[Aqualung]

I would guess your first language is not English, so maybe you do not know that it is an expression not a literal meaning.

Fruit of the vine in english is figurative. But if literally translated "fruit of the vine" into another language, it woundn't carry the same figurative meaning. Just in the same way, if it literally said "fruit of the vine" in the original language, that doesn't necessarily mean it carries the same figurative meaning across languages.

 

[Merlin]

Fruit of the vine in english is figurative. But if literally translated "fruit of the vine" into another language, it woundn't carry the same figurative meaning. Just in the same way, if it literally said "fruit of the vine" in the original language, that doesn't necessarily mean it carries the same figurative meaning across languages.

But equally, it might

I've only ever suggested that they might have done, or they might not have done. I just think the balance of probability is that they did. It's no big deal actually.

 

[WillieHutch]

Since the purpose of communion is to remember Jesus' sacrifice, the drink we choose to symbolize the Last Supper really isn't relevant is it?

precisely, it's symbolic. drinking or not drinking alcohol is a personal choice.

 

[Merlin]

precisely, it's symbolic. drinking or not drinking alcohol is a personal choice.

This is more or less full circle. My original contention was that, even those who do not like alcohol, cannot object to half a thimbleful of weak communion wine. And, if it was good enough for Jesus to ask us to drink wine in remembrance of him, it is good enough for me.

Drink blackcurrant juice in remembrance of me, doesn't have the same ring some how

 

[Malus 12:9]

Jesus drank alcohol

Yes, yes he did. Now where is the issue?

 

[Aqualung]

Yes, yes he did. Now where is the issue?

Did you miss the entire thread?

 

[Malus 12:9]

Did you miss the entire thread?

I did see what people are suggesting, yes.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Okay.
1) Sure, they drank alcohol. But what was the alcohol content of that wine they drank, and what was their tolerance to alcohol?
2) How drunk were they? How do you know they were drunk?
3) Old wine is better. Okay. I'll go with you on that one.
4) It's not viod. People might have drank water, but they probably had to boil it, and they were probably less healthy anyway.
5) Once again, the only people who accused Jesus of being a drunkard were those who wanted to discredit him. Baseless accusation made to colour him in a bad light.
6) Of course you can get drunk. But how easy was it? How much did you have to drink?

I have finally found the answer to this question.

In Plutarch's Table Talk, he says that the role of the host is to properly mix wine with water for all of the guests. The point, Plutarch tells us, is fellowship. He says that alcohol affects everyone differently and some people get drunk off of a very little amount and some can drink a lot. The Greeks had regular drinking parties that could last six hours or more, and the host was to mix the wine individually for each guest so that they all got drunk at the same time. The host failed if a guest became unsociably drunk before everyone else - there are even two satires about drinking parties that show how the party can go very wrong if one person gets drunk too quickly.

That's exactly what happened in the drinking party at Corinth. 1 Cor. 11... one person got drunk before everyone else, and Paul had to put a stop to it.

EDIT: Plutarch wrote at about the same time as Paul.

 

[alexander garcia]

Hi, just an opinion on this. First the best wine is not juice it is aged. As to anothers point of the keg party theory . We have Yahshua and at least 12 others besides his motherand brothers and sisters and the rest of the town. What kind of keg parties do you go to? It was not even their party and they came with at least 13 people so how many were at this party? If you have 50 people on a keg do you still want to make drunk jokes? I think that the reason that the churches don't allow wine (alcohol) is that since their beliefs are powerless theories and traditions of man brought by the devil, they can do nothing to change a person. So it is hard to say to someone that Jesus is going to set them free, but since you are still a drunk we don't want to tempt you. Wait what happened to the new creation? Oh ya that is only good with the true name as scripture states ACTS 4:12 their is only ONE NAME. So if you wish to be saved from who you are and wish to be who the Almighty wants you to be repent and be immersed in the name of Yahshua to take away your sins nd you will receive the gift of the Holy spirit