Jesus did not die on the Cross

[kjw47]

Not to speak of G-d, the Christian don't have anything even written or dictated by Jesus.

Regards

You are mistaken--Jesus speaks at Proverbs 8- This is about Jesus--Gods master worker--1Cor 1:30

Notice in verse 23--Jesus tells everyone he was produced( created) first.

 

[paarsurrey]

Further to posts #4, 45, and 54,423,448,496,512,552… and #692.

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [21]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran
[3:201]O ye who believe! be steadfast and strive to excel in steadfastness and be onyourguard and fear Allah that you may prosper.

Here ends Quran Chapter 3 .

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Any of the poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:
1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?

Please

Regard

 

[Muffled]

That's incorrect.:no:

I believe you are saying the Bible is incorrect.

 

[Muffled]

You really make some bizarre claims.

1. The Quran said specifically to be written by Allah says Jesus was not even crucified.
2. The bible said specifically to be written by Yahweh says he was crucified and died on the cross.

a. If Yahweh and Allah are two different "Gods" then they disagree with each other. Given the bible's contemporary witnesses testify to his crucifixion and death without a single exception that makes Allah and his Quran wrong.
b. If Allah and Yahweh are the same "God" then that makes Allah the creator of a faith he later denies and contradicts.

Either way Allah is a terrible excuse for a "God".



Allah told Muhammad that Jesus was not crucified. Every single relevant 1st century source says Jesus was crucified. Allah was in no way correct about the crucifixion. If he gets the most important issue wrong then he is not God and not correct. The one thing we can know without question is that two mutually exclusive claims to the same event can't possibly both be true.

That is one of Muhammad's names for Allah, not mine. He has 99 names. Many of them are the exact same characteristics Christians assign to Satan.

You are turning out to be one of the theologically weirdest claimants to being a Christian I have ever heard of.[/QUOTE]

1. I believe the Qu'ran is not that specific and it does say that it appears that Jesus was crucified. So to say it doesn't say that is misguided.

2. It says that but there are also verses that indicate He wasn't so it makes sense that the witnesses were reporting what they could see ie as it appeared to them.

a. I think you are trying to reson that if they said opposite things they are different gods, however I believe they have not said opposite things but congruent things. I believe you are wrong in your assessment of what is being said.

b. I don't believe I have a clue where you are coming from on this or even what you mean.

So you are saying that if Allah is God then He is a terrible God. That sounds like blasphemy to me.

I believe Jesus in me does have a very different perspective from people in general.

 

[Muffled]

First you must show that God said it. Then you must explain why he said the exact opposite things at the time of the actual event through everyone who recorded it down.

I said it and I did not say opposite things.

 

[Nada]

I believe you are saying the Bible is incorrect.

No you are incorrect.How can you say that Allah is the creator of Christianity? Islam was invented over 600 years after Jesus walked the earth.I actually forgot to put you on my ignore list last time we had a discussion.I really do not wish to speak to you anymore.It is a dead end issue speaking to you.This will be the last time.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus did not die on the Cross

@ 1robin @ Muffled

Just to correct you both on what Quran says about the event of Jesus’ crucifixion:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 4: Al-Nisa

[4:156]Then, because of their breaking of their covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to kill the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: ‘Our hearts are wrapped in covers,’ — nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little —
[4:157]And because of their disbelief and their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny,
[4:158]And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them likeone crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly ina state ofdoubt about it; they have nodefiniteknowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert thisconjectureinto a certainty;
[4:159]On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.

1. The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
2. The Holy Quran

So, please attribute to Quran what Quran says.
For etymology of the words in the original Arabic text of Quran and other details please read the link 2 given above.


Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus did not die on the Cross

13th Argument – Pilate was convinced that Jesus was innocent.

John 19:8
6As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!" But Pilate answered, "You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him."
8When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid,
12From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar."

John 19 Parallel Chapters

When Pilate was convinced of Jesus’ innocence; why should he make Jesus die?

Pilate arranged the events of crucifixion in such a manner that Jesus' life got saved and he was delivered from the Cross in near-dead yet very much alive.

Regards.

 

[Zafer Ahmad]

Jesus did not die on the Cross. This is a fact which did happen in real life and Quran does not claim that it is first to claim it.

Does it?

Your thoughts please; anybody believing in a religion or no religion.

Regards

Jesus did not die on the cross rather he travelled to kashmir to guide the lost tribes of israel, this is proven by the quran and the gospel.

 

[theistboy]

according to Quran Jesus did not die on the cross, and even the Bible indicates that Jesus did not die on the cross. Jesus prayed to God to be saved from the cruxifiction (john 26:39) and once again Jesus prayed (John 26:42-44), It shows that Jesus did not want to die. The jews demanded the crucifixtion of Jesus. Jesus did not say "here take me and kill me, i will die for you sins". Jesus never said i am going to die on the cross for everyones' sins no, those techings comes from Paul not from Jesus. the sad thing is that many people today follows Paul's teaching instead of Jesus's teachings. At least we know that Jesus spoke the true, because Jesus was a very honest and vey decent person who never comitted sins, and he even performed miracles to show people that there is Only one God and he was a human sent by God, is it not more reliable than believing in Paul who even neglected jesus's teachings, how can we know that Paul spoke the truth, and that he was not a liar? we can see that Jesus was not a liar because he was a very good, honest decent man, and he even performed great miracles to show that he spoke the truth, while Paul could be a liar? No prophet like Adam, Abraham; Moses; Muhammed; Noah Solomon even talked about Jesus being GOd or Son of God, no prophet taught people that, it was Paul who taught people that. what evidence do we have that Paul spoke the truth and didn't lie, could Paul perform miracles was Paul a decent honest person or did Paul prophesies certain which have come true? what is the proof that Paul wasn't a liar? and don't just quote from the Bible, because the Bible have been changed many times over the year for instance from Aramaic which Jesus spoke to greek to latin to old english and to english

 

[paarsurrey]

• According to Quran Jesus did not die on the cross, and even the Bible indicates that Jesus did not die on the cross.

• Jesus prayed to God to be saved from the cruxifiction (john 26:39) and once again Jesus prayed (John 26:42-44), It shows that Jesus did not want to die.

• The jews demanded the crucifixtion of Jesus. Jesus did not say "here take me and kill me, i will die for you sins".
• Jesus never said i am going to die on the cross for everyones' sins no, those techings comes from Paul not from Jesus.

• the sad thing is that many people today follows Paul's teaching instead of Jesus's teachings. At least we know that Jesus spoke the true, because Jesus was a very honest and vey decent person who never comitted sins, and he even performed miracles to show people that there is Only one God and he was a human sent by God, is it not more reliable than believing in Paul who even neglected jesus's teachings, how can we know that Paul spoke the truth, and that he was not a liar?
• we can see that Jesus was not a liar because he was a very good, honest decent man, and he even performed great miracles to show that he spoke the truth, while Paul could be a liar?

• No prophet like Adam, Abraham; Moses; Muhammed; Noah Solomon even talked about Jesus being GOd or Son of God, no prophet taught people that, it was Paul who taught people that.
• what evidence do we have that Paul spoke the truth and didn't lie, could Paul perform miracles was Paul a decent honest person or did Paul prophesies certain which have come true? what is the proof that Paul wasn't a liar? and don't just quote from the Bible, because the Bible have been changed many times over the year for instance from Aramaic which Jesus spoke to greek to latin to old english and to english

Thanks

 

[Muffled]

Jesus did not die on the Cross

13th Argument – Pilate was convinced that Jesus was innocent.

John 19:8
6As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!" But Pilate answered, "You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him."
8When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid,
12From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar."

John 19 Parallel Chapters

When Pilate was convinced of Jesus’ innocence; why should he make Jesus die?

Pilate arranged the events of crucifixion in such a manner that Jesus' life got saved and he was delivered from the Cross in near-dead yet very much alive.

Regards.

I believe there is no evidence that Pilot arranged anything except the crucifixion and the details on that are not there.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus did not die on the Cross

@ 1robin @ Muffled

Just to correct you both on what Quran says about the event of Jesus’ crucifixion:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 4: Al-Nisa

[4:156]Then, because of their breaking of their covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to kill the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: ‘Our hearts are wrapped in covers,’ — nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little —
[4:157]And because of their disbelief and their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny,
[4:158]And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them likeone crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly ina state ofdoubt about it; they have nodefiniteknowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert thisconjectureinto a certainty;
[4:159]On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.

1. The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
2. The Holy Quran

So, please attribute to Quran what Quran says.
For etymology of the words in the original Arabic text of Quran and other details please read the link 2 given above.


Regards

I believe you can read the red underlined portion.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus did not die on the cross rather he travelled to kashmir to guide the lost tribes of israel, this is proven by the quran and the gospel.

I believe I have seen nothing like that in the Bible or the Qu'ran.

 

[paarsurrey]

[4:158]And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this conjecture into a certainty;

I believe you can read the red underlined portion.

People thought that Jesus was dead but he was near-dead, that is explained next in the same verse "they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this conjecture into a certainty", neither the procedure of crucifixion was completed as was customary nor a physician was called to certify that Jesus was dead.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I believe there is no evidence that Pilot arranged anything except the crucifixion and the details on that are not there.

And we are discussing crucifixion of Jesus conducted by Pilate- the Roman Official.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 highlights this point:

Pilate was a God-fearing and a good-hearted man; he could not openly show favour to Jesus for fear of the Caesar; for the Jews had declared Jesus a rebel. All the same, Pilate was lucky to have seen Jesus but the Caesar was not so fortunate; the former not only saw Jesus but also showed him a great favour -- he did not desire that Jesus should suffer crucifixion.

The gospels point out clearly that Pilate had several times resolved to let Jesus go, but the Jews said that if he would let him go he would be disloyal to Caesar; they also said that Jesus was a rebel who wished to be king.14 And the dream which Pilate's wife had, further prompted the freeing of Jesus; otherwise, Pilate and his wife themselves would have been exposed to disaster.

But, as the Jews were a mischievous people, ready even secretly to inform the Caesar of Pilate's action, Pilate made use of a device to rescue Jesus: first, he fixed Friday for the crucifixion, only a few hours before sunset, and the night of the Great Sabbath was about to fall.

“Jesus in India”
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch1.html

Regards

 

[crazyrussian]

Jesus did not die on the Cross. This is a fact which did happen in real life and Quran does not claim that it is first to claim it.

Does it?

Your thoughts please; anybody believing in a religion or no religion.

Regards

Jesus actually died when he experienced repentance to become the firstborn from the dead. This event occurred before he began his ministry. After Jesus died and came out of the river with a new spirit, He was Messiah. Prior to this moment he was simply a man born according to the flesh, just as you and I are born according to the flesh.

He taught by experience, the "Way" for us to follow to experience what he also experienced. Unfortunately that "Way" has been lost to humanity for many centuries.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus actually died when he experienced repentance to become the firstborn from the dead. This event occurred before he began his ministry. After Jesus died and came out of the river with a new spirit, He was Messiah. Prior to this moment he was simply a man born according to the flesh, just as you and I are born according to the flesh.

He taught by experience, the "Way" for us to follow to experience what he also experienced. Unfortunately that "Way" has been lost to humanity for many centuries.

to become the firstborn from the dead

When did it happen? Please quote from Jesus.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Please read post #87 which is very relevant for the topic in this thread.
Regards