Jesus did not die on the Cross

[paarsurrey]

Jesus did not die on the Cross


12th Argument – Pilates wife saw a dream about Jesus the night before Crucifixion.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 has given some interesting comments on Pilate's wife seeing a dream that changed the scenario of crucifixion of Jesus:

Pilate was a God-fearing and a good-hearted man; he could not openly show favour to Jesus for fear of the Caesar; for the Jews had declared Jesus a rebel. All the same, Pilate was lucky to have seen Jesus but the Caesar was not so fortunate; the former not only saw Jesus but also showed him a great favour -- he did not desire that Jesus should suffer crucifixion.

The gospels point out clearly that Pilate had several times resolved to let Jesus go, but the Jews said that if he would let him go he would be disloyal to Caesar; they also said that Jesus was a rebel who wished to be king.14 And the dream which Pilate's wife had, further prompted the freeing of Jesus; otherwise, Pilate and his wife themselves would have been exposed to disaster.

But, as the Jews were a mischievous people, ready even secretly to inform the Caesar of Pilate's action, Pilate made use of a device to rescue Jesus: first, he fixed Friday for the crucifixion, only a few hours before sunset, and the night of the Great Sabbath was about to fall. Pilate knew very well that the Jews, in accordance with the commandments of their law, could keep Jesus on the Cross only till the evening, and after that it was unlawful to keep anybody on the Cross.

Accordingly, it all happened in this very manner; and Jesus was taken down from the Cross before it was evening. It is improbable that the thieves who were crucified at the same time as Jesus should have remained alive, but that Jesus should have died within two hours. It was an excuse made up to save Jesus from the process of leg breaking.

The fact that both the thieves were taken down alive from the Cross is sufficient evidence for an intelligent person: and taking down the victims alive from the Cross was the usual custom; they died only when their bones were broken, or when they were allowed to remain on the Cross without food or drink for some days. But Jesus had none of these experiences -- he neither remained for any number of days on the Cross, nor were his bones broken; and by making it appear that Jesus had died the Jews were made to forget the whole matter.

The thieves, however, were killed immediately -- their bones were broken. It would have been different if it had been said in regard to one of the thieves also that he was dead and that there was no need to break his bones. And a man named Joseph -- an honoured friend of Pilate and a notable person in the locality and a secret disciple of Jesus -- presented himself at the right time. I suspect that he too was called at Pilate's suggestion.

Jesus in India

A reasonable explaining the events of Crucifixion of Jesus.

Isn't it? Please

Regards

 

[Muffled]

That is incorrect brother.God the Almighty is not everywhere.He is not omnipresnt.He resides in the Heavens of Heavens,meaning a lofty place.His holy spirit is God's active force that is everywhere doing the will of God.

1 Kings 8:39 then may you hear from the heavens, your dwelling place, and may you forgive and take action; and reward each one according to all his ways, for you know his heart (you alone truly know every human heart),

It explains where He is.

2 Chronicles 6:33 may you then listen from the heavens, your dwelling place, and do all that the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name+ and fear you, as your people Israel do, and may know that your name has been called on this house that I have built.

Dwelling:a house, apartment, or other place of residence.


2 Chronicles 6:18 “But will God really dwell with mankind on the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!



Here is some more helpful information

“God is a Spirit,” says the Bible. (John 4:24) Therefore, he resides in a spiritual realm independent of the physical universe. When the Bible refers to “the heavens” as God’s dwelling place, it is referring to the loftiness of the place where he resides in contrast with the material environment in which we reside. In any event, the Bible teaches that God’s abode is, indeed, clearly distinguished from the physical universe but is at the same time a very specific location.—Job 2:1-2.


Is God Everywhere? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I believe you think that and that you have proof but the facts show otherwise.

Here is the proof that God is everywhere: Ps 139:7 ¶ Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, And thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall overwhelm me, And the light about me shall be night; 12 Even the darkness hideth not from thee, But the night shineth as the day: The darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

I believe I have already stated that this is the case but that I believe it is a metaphoric residence. Your proof texts do not refute my asserttion.

I beleive this isn't a fact it is a conjecture and does not neceesarily follow from the one premise. also Job 2:1-2 does nothing to help your argument.

 

[Muffled]

Well what we do have is the unanimous consent of all the earliest sources to death by crucifixion. We also have a consensus among NT historians that Jesus died on the cross.

The only thing Islam has is Uthman's version of something a very questionable Muhammad claimed about an event that occurred 400 plus years before he lived.

And if the Quran is right that it only appeared they crucified him then that makes Allah the creator of the Christian faith based on a lie he did not bother to correct for 500 years. So most likely Muhammad was completely wrong and contradicts the best sources possible or Allah is truly the best of schemers and created a false religion as a joke.

I believe there is no lie since the Bible has already told the truth about this. Allah certainly is the creator of Christianity.

I believe God is correct in what He told Mohammed and it does not contradict the best source which is the Bible.

I don't believe this has any credibility although God has been known to manipulate things to go His way.

 

[Nada]

I believe you think that and that you have proof but the facts show otherwise.

Here is the proof that God is everywhere: Ps 139:7 ¶ Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, And thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall overwhelm me, And the light about me shall be night; 12 Even the darkness hideth not from thee, But the night shineth as the day: The darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

I believe I have already stated that this is the case but that I believe it is a metaphoric residence. Your proof texts do not refute my asserttion.

I beleive this isn't a fact it is a conjecture and does not neceesarily follow from the one premise. also Job 2:1-2 does nothing to help your argument.

That's incorrect.:no:

 

[Muffled]

...Because I'm gonna trust a foreign document written 600 years after the fact, over a local document written 40 years after the fact.

I believe if God says something that it is true no matter when He said it.

 

[Muffled]

That's incorrect.:no:

I believe this is what JW thinking boils down to. It must be correct because some JW said so. I believe that is a very cultish way of seeing things and that true scholarship would investigate the facts and agree with them instead of the party line.

 

[1robin]

I believe there is no lie since the Bible has already told the truth about this. Allah certainly is the creator of Christianity.

You really make some bizarre claims.

1. The Quran said specifically to be written by Allah says Jesus was not even crucified.
2. The bible said specifically to be written by Yahweh says he was crucified and died on the cross.

a. If Yahweh and Allah are two different "Gods" then they disagree with each other. Given the bible's contemporary witnesses testify to his crucifixion and death without a single exception that makes Allah and his Quran wrong.
b. If Allah and Yahweh are the same "God" then that makes Allah the creator of a faith he later denies and contradicts.

Either way Allah is a terrible excuse for a "God".

I believe God is correct in what He told Mohammed and it does not contradict the best source which is the Bible.

Allah told Muhammad that Jesus was not crucified. Every single relevant 1st century source says Jesus was crucified. Allah was in no way correct about the crucifixion. If he gets the most important issue wrong then he is not God and not correct. The one thing we can know without question is that two mutually exclusive claims to the same event can't possibly both be true.

I don't believe this has any credibility although God has been known to manipulate things to go His way.

[/QUOTE] That is one of Muhammad's names for Allah, not mine. He has 99 names. Many of them are the exact same characteristics Christians assign to Satan.

You are turning out to be one of the theologically weirdest claimants to being a Christian I have ever heard of.

 

[1robin]

I believe if God says something that it is true no matter when He said it.

First you must show that God said it. Then you must explain why he said the exact opposite things at the time of the actual event through everyone who recorded it down.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus did not die on the Cross


12th Argument – Pilates wife saw a dream about Jesus the night before Crucifixion.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 has given some interesting comments on Pilate's wife seeing a dream that changed the scenario of crucifixion of Jesus:

Pilate was a God-fearing and a good-hearted man; he could not openly show favour to Jesus for fear of the Caesar; for the Jews had declared Jesus a rebel. All the same, Pilate was lucky to have seen Jesus but the Caesar was not so fortunate; the former not only saw Jesus but also showed him a great favour -- he did not desire that Jesus should suffer crucifixion.

The gospels point out clearly that Pilate had several times resolved to let Jesus go, but the Jews said that if he would let him go he would be disloyal to Caesar; they also said that Jesus was a rebel who wished to be king.14 And the dream which Pilate's wife had, further prompted the freeing of Jesus; otherwise, Pilate and his wife themselves would have been exposed to disaster.

But, as the Jews were a mischievous people, ready even secretly to inform the Caesar of Pilate's action, Pilate made use of a device to rescue Jesus: first, he fixed Friday for the crucifixion, only a few hours before sunset, and the night of the Great Sabbath was about to fall. Pilate knew very well that the Jews, in accordance with the commandments of their law, could keep Jesus on the Cross only till the evening, and after that it was unlawful to keep anybody on the Cross.

Accordingly, it all happened in this very manner; and Jesus was taken down from the Cross before it was evening. It is improbable that the thieves who were crucified at the same time as Jesus should have remained alive, but that Jesus should have died within two hours. It was an excuse made up to save Jesus from the process of leg breaking.

The fact that both the thieves were taken down alive from the Cross is sufficient evidence for an intelligent person: and taking down the victims alive from the Cross was the usual custom; they died only when their bones were broken, or when they were allowed to remain on the Cross without food or drink for some days. But Jesus had none of these experiences -- he neither remained for any number of days on the Cross, nor were his bones broken; and by making it appear that Jesus had died the Jews were made to forget the whole matter.

The thieves, however, were killed immediately -- their bones were broken. It would have been different if it had been said in regard to one of the thieves also that he was dead and that there was no need to break his bones. And a man named Joseph -- an honoured friend of Pilate and a notable person in the locality and a secret disciple of Jesus -- presented himself at the right time. I suspect that he too was called at Pilate's suggestion.

Jesus in India

A reasonable explaining the events of Crucifixion of Jesus.

Isn't it? Please

Regards

I believe it is Improbable for normal people but Jesus knew how to leave the body before it died and His leaving meant that the body would die more quickly.

I don't know where this comes from but I believe the text says they didn't break his bones because the body was already dead.

I don't believe fallacious reasoning is better than textual reality.

The text makes this argument unconvincing since it reports a soldier pierced the side of Jesus to make sure He was dead.

 

[paarsurrey]

I take it you deny Christ died on the cross or as a result of crucifixion soon after. Islamic claims about what did happen are all over the map. What is it you think occurred instead?

It were tribulations from G-d for Jesus.
All prophets/messengers of G-d face such tribulations, Jesus was no exception.

Quran mentions it:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah

[2:215] Do you think that you will enter Heaven while there has not come over you the condition of those who passed away before you? Poverty and afflictions befell them, and they were violently shaken until the Messenger and those who believed along with him said: ‘When will come the help of Allah?’ Yea, surely the help of Allah is nigh.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Such tribulations increase the status of the prophets/messengers.
G-d saved Jesus' life. He migrated from Judea.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus did not die on the Cross

Pilate’s conspiracy to save Jesus life

Following site points a reasonable and interesting explanation.

With a Governor(Pilate) whose wife received a vision from God demanding that he have nothing to do with Jesus' death and a Counsellor who was a follower of Jesus and of whom not only refused to consent to the crucifixion but was willing to use all of his wealth and fortune if necessary in order to save Jesus' life it would only be a matter of time before the two would indeed save the life of the Messiah.

Pontius Pilate and Joseph of Arimithea obviously could not stop Jesus from being nailed to the cross but together they would make absolutely sure that he would not die on the cross. When Joseph of Arimithea asked Pontius Pilate for the body of Jesus the Greek word used is SOMA which refers to a live body.

In the early church Pontius Pilate and his wife were heroes. They are still venerated in the Ethiopian and Orthodox Churches.

"Augustine saw Pilate as a prophet of the Kingdom of God (cf. sermon 201). Hippolytus draws a parallel between Pilate and Daniel—in so far as both proclaim themselves absolved from the shedding of innocent blood (Daniel 14:40). Other Church Fathers likened Pilate to the Magi, who also recognized Jesus as King of the Jews. Pilate’s wife is honored by the Greek Church on October 27. The Ethiopian Church venerates both Pilate and his wife on June 19."

http://www.qaraims.com/pilatesaveschrist.htm

It is very reasonable explanation of what was going on underhand at the time of Jesus' crucifixion.

Regards

 

[Renji]

Jesus did not die on the Cross. This is a fact which did happen in real life and Quran does not claim that it is first to claim it.

So you're trying to disprove the crucifixion just because a book doesn't agree with the idea?

 

[paarsurrey]

So you're trying to disprove the crucifixion just because a book doesn't agree with the idea?

Do you believe that Jesus died on the Cross?
If yes.
Please read my arguments, and you are welcome to refute them.

Regards

 

[Renji]

Do you believe that Jesus died on the Cross?
If yes.
Please read my arguments, and you are welcome to refute them.

Regards

Well I'm not exactly religious nor do I believe in existence of any gods or demons (I used to, but not anymore). But for arguments sake, I would say that you can't actually disprove a claim from a particular religion by quoting another.

 

[paarsurrey]

The most compelling evidence for me is the historical relentlessness and thoroughness of Roman terrorism -- and crucifixion is an act of terror. When Rome crucified someone, they wanted him dead. They wouldn't have "taken him down early." The poster simply wants to discredit the miracle of resurrection, in order to make Islam look invincible. Which we all know it isn't.

I agree with you.

Pilate did not want Jesus to die from crucifixion, so Pilate arranged things so that Jesus is taken down early and is saved death because of putting on the Cross.

Regards

 

[kjw47]

Well I'm not exactly religious nor do I believe in existence of any gods or demons (I used to, but not anymore). But for arguments sake, I would say that you can't actually disprove a claim from a particular religion by quoting another.

Hi Renji, There is 0 proof in existence that Jesus died on a cross.
The greek word-- stauros-- translates--an upright pole or stake.
A trinity translating error, they even get some followers to bow to a handcarved image on a cross. The ot forbids the usage of statues and icons( little metal cross).

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi Renji, There is 0 proof in existence that Jesus died on a cross.
The greek word-- stauros-- translates--an upright pole or stake.
A trinity translating error, they even get some followers to bow to a handcarved image on a cross. The ot forbids the usage of statues and icons( little metal cross).

Cross or an upright pole or stake is not the issue.
The issue is that Jesus did not die on the cross/an upright pole/stake. Jesus was delivered from cross/an upright pole/stake in near dead but very much alive. G-d saved Jesus' life.

Regards

 

[kjw47]

Cross or an upright pole or stake is not the issue.
The issue is that Jesus did not die on the cross/an upright pole/stake. Jesus was delivered from cross/an upright pole/stake in near dead but very much alive. G-d saved Jesus' life.

Regards

Gods word clearly teaches--Jesus died and went to hades( grave) for 3 days. then God resurrected him.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus wasn't a 'sacrifice' in the actual definition, regardless. This is the point that people seem to be missing. Whether he went elsewhere, was resurrected etc. the narrative has a Jesus who is around after the 'crucifixion'.

 

[paarsurrey]

Gods word clearly teaches--Jesus died and went to hades( grave) for 3 days. then God resurrected him.

Not to speak of G-d, the Christian don't have anything even written or dictated by Jesus.

Regards