1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Jesus and other gods.The Difference !

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by bhakthi, Nov 30, 2005.

  1. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    7,572
    Ratings:
    +1,007
    Actually I think we might be in agreement partially. I agree that if you are a fundamentalist, then it is evident that Jesus is God since the Bible clearly states it. There are ways around it though, if you are not a fundamentalist.
     
  2. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    Thanks, Scott, I put the Biblegateway one to my favorites, I will try to use it, thanks a lot!

    I understand what you say about God is one, and the whole chopping him up bit. It is a mysterious thing for us humans to understand. I guess you know, I am pretty simple in my belief, I just believe in Jesus and the Bible, and that's good enough for me. I see similarities in the religions, but I see differences, too. I don't think its bad to seek for a one religion that is the 'true' religion. Its that statement of Jesus, I am the way, the truth and the light, no man comes to the Father but by me, that, the more I learn of Jesus, his character and profound teachings, make me feel that he really IS the truth. I enjoy learning of all the religions, but nothing can change the way I feel about Jesus. I put all my hope in him. I don't want you to debate that, I just wanted to say, that is just me, my personal belief, that nothing can change. Thanks again for your help!

    Sincerely,

    Joeboonda
     
  3. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    Yeah, I see what you are saying, we all believe differently about the authority of the scriptures and all, thanks for your reply.

    Joeboonda
     
  4. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

    Joined:
    May 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,066
    Ratings:
    +66
    John 10:30 "I and my Father are one", Jesus also said He was omnipresent (John 3:13), omniscent (John 11:14) and omnipotent (Matthew 28:18). He also demonstrated Himself as God when He received worship (Matthew 14:33) and forgave sins, because that's only something God can do (Mark 2:5-7). God The Son exhibited and laid claim to all the attributes associated with God The Father and that is why they are one since along with the Holy Spirit, they all share these attriubutes to deity. :)
     
  5. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    Cool, that's what I am trying to say, too. I was starting to freak out that no one else saw things that way.
     
  6. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    6,768
    Ratings:
    +475
    Please understand that I believe Jesus was speaking the truth when He said: "I am the way, the truth and the light and no man comes to the Father but through the Son. It is true on many levels.

    Also understand that I believe Jesus was speaking words that Moses could have said or Muhammed, or Krshna, or Baha`u'llah and They would all be speaking the truth.

    "They are, in truth, cup-bearers of the life-giving water of knowledge and guides unto the ideal way. They direct the peoples of the world to the straight path and acquaint them with that which is conducive to human upliftment and exaltation. The straight path is the one which guideth man to the dayspring of perception and to the dawning-place of true understanding and leadeth him to that which will redound to glory, honour and greatness."
    (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 35)

    "There is equal agreement in these texts that the soul's ability to attain to an understanding of its Creator's purpose is the product not merely of its own effort, but of interventions of the Divine that open the way. The point was made with memorable clarity by Jesus: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."38 If one is not to see in this assertion merely a dogmatic challenge to other stages of the one ongoing process of Divine guidance, it is obviously the expression of the central truth of revealed religion: that access to the unknowable Reality that creates and sustains existence is possible only through awakening to the illumination shed from that Realm."
    (Commissioned by The Universal House of Justice, One Common Faith)

    "15. "But if they strive to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), and follow the way of those who turn to Me (in love): in the End the return of you all is to Me, and I will tell you the truth (and meaning) of all that ye did.""
    (The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 31)

    "Seek the Sanctuary of the Saints, and fall at their feet; your suffering and darkness shall be removed. ||2||
    Practice truth, contentment and kindness; this is the most excellent way of life.
    One who is so blessed by the Formless Lord God renounces selfishness, and becomes the dust of all. ||3||
    All that is seen is You, Lord, the expansion of the expanse.
    Says Nanak, the Guru has removed my doubts; I recognize God in all. ||4||25||95||"
    (Shri Guru Granth Sahib, Section 5 - Siree Raag)

    "One knows the Truth only when he bears love to the True Lord.
    Hearing the Name, the mind is enraptured; then, he attains the gate of salvation.
    One knows the Truth only when he knows the true way of life.
    Preparing the field of the body, he plants the Seed of the Creator.
    One knows the Truth only when he receives true instruction.
    Showing mercy to other beings, he makes donations to charities.
    One knows the Truth only when he dwells in the sacred shrine of pilgrimage of his own soul.
    He sits and receives instruction from the True Guru, and lives in accordance with His Will.
    Truth is the medicine for all; it removes and washes away our sins.
    Nanak speaks this prayer to those who have Truth in their laps. ||2||"
    (Shri Guru Granth Sahib, Section 8 - Raag Aasaa)

    "86,10 For Thou art great, and doest wondrous things; Thou art God alone.
    86,11 Teach me, O LORD, Thy way, that I may walk in Thy truth; {N}
    make one my heart to fear Thy name.
    86,12 I will thank Thee, O Lord my God, with my whole heart; and I will glorify Thy name for evermore."
    (Kesuvim (Writings), Tehillim (Psalms))

    "1 2,1 Now the days of David drew nigh that he should die; and he charged Solomon his son, saying: 1 2,2 'I go the way of all the earth; be thou strong therefore, and show thyself a man; 1 2,3 and keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to that which is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself; 1 2,4 that the LORD may establish His word which He spoke concerning me, saying: If thy children take heed to their way, to walk before Me in truth with all their heart and with all their soul, there shall not fail thee, said He, a man on the throne of Israel."
    (Nev'im (Prophets), Melachim (Kings))

    "24,27 And he said: 'Blessed be the LORD, the God of my master Abraham, who hath not forsaken His mercy and His truth toward my master; as for me, the LORD hath led me in the way to the house of my master's brethren.'"
    (Torah (Law), B'reishis (Genesis))

    "Tortuous wisdom brings no profit, virtue shuns the crooked way,
    For the deed proclaims the hero from the man of spacious lies,
    Marks the true and upright Arya from the scheming worldly-wise!
    If assuming virtue's mantle I should seek the sinful path,
    Gods who judge our secret motives curse me with their deepest wrath,
    And thy counsel helps not, rishi, mansions of the sky to win,
    And a king his subjects follow adding deeper sin to sin!
    Sweep aside thy crafty reasoning, Truth is still our ancient way,
    Truth sustains the earth and nations and a monarch's righteous sway,
    Mighty Gods and holy sages find in Truth their haven shore,
    Scorning death and dark destruction, Truth survives for evermore!"
    (Hindu, Ramayana (R. Dutt, abridged tr))

    "Whoever takes refuge with the awakened one,
    the truth, and the community,
    who with clear understanding perceives the four noble truths:
    namely suffering, the origin of suffering,
    the cessation of suffering, and the eightfold holy way
    that leads to the cessation of suffering,
    that is the safe refuge; that is the best refuge;
    having gone to that refuge,
    a person is delivered from all pains."
    (Buddhist, Dhammapada - Sayings of the Buddha 2 (tr. J. Richards))

    You're most welcome for the link. Consider the other links as well, when discussing religion in an interfaith forum such as this respect for other religions and their writings greases the skids of discourse.

    "The second Glad-Tidings It is permitted that the peoples and kindreds of the world associate with one another with joy and radiance. O people! Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. Thus hath the day-star of His sanction and authority shone forth above the horizon of the decree of God, the Lord of the worlds."
    (Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 21)


    Regards, Scott
     
  7. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    Thanks, Scott, I think I added the Quran link to my favorites, too, but I could not find the 'Oceans' link. I am not too computer literate, so may I ask, once I find a passage I want to put in a post, how do I do that, exactly, (tell me step by step, cuz I really haven't a clue). That was a lot to read just then, I know what you are saying. I am still leary of including all religions as the truth, just seems too much like the one-world religion of the false prophet during the Great Tribulation.

    Thanks,

    Joeboonda
     
  8. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    6,768
    Ratings:
    +475
    Joe,

    Just "cut and paste". Highlight the text you wish in the web site. right click on the highlighted text and left click on <copy>. Then go to the place where you want the text to appear. left click to get the cursor in place, then right click to get the little box where it says <PASTE> and left click on <PASTE>, and the text should appear.

    Alternatively you can highlight the text on the website, press <control> and < C> at the same time. Then go to where you want the text to appear place the cursor, and hold down the <control> and <V> at the same time and the text will apear where you wanted it.

    As to Ocean go paste http://www.bahai-education.org/ocean/ in the search box of your browser or click on this link, scroll down to where it says near the left edge "How to download "Ocean" and left click on ocean_index.exe and it wil ask you to save it, put it on your desk top for ease of finding it again, then when it is finished downloading, just click on the downloaded file to extract the files and it will install the software. Then the first time you click on the <OCEAN> icon, it will extract all the scriptures and make them ready for use. You won't have to extract it after that it will be on your hard-drive. Periodically it will ask you if you wish to update your software, when you click "YES" it will tell you if there is a download necessary for your files.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  9. bhakthi

    bhakthi Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    47
    Ratings:
    +3
    Bhakthi-
    Good Post Blueman
    Jesus can give eternal life.
    Jesus can give the Holy Spirit.
    Jesus will raise all the dead who are in the graves.
    He will judge both the living and the dead.
    Lord Jesus said like this "For whatever He[God the Father] does, the Son also does in like manner."John;5:19. No prophet great or small could never say like this.What Jesus said was that he can do anything that God does.
    "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, F6 who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."John ;1:18
     
  10. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    6,768
    Ratings:
    +475
    God created man capable of eternal life, therefore it comes from God, not Jesus.

    The Holy Spirit is the radiance of God's Grace to His Creation, it comes from God, not Jesus.

    If God grants eternal life, then that resurrection if it means physical (which I don't think it does) comes from God, not Jesus.

    No, Jesus said WE can do anything HE did. Jesus says over and over He is not God.

    Jesus says NO one has seen God at any time. That means me and all those who lived in Jesus day. They were not seeing God either, they were perceiveing God through the vehicle of His Manifestation, Christ Jesus, but not God in His ESSENCE, rather His Essence reflected in Christ in a way that man can comprehend the otherwise uncomprehensible.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  11. bhakthi

    bhakthi Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    47
    Ratings:
    +3
    Bhakthi-
    This is what the Bible says about the Person of Jesus Christ.
    "Who being the brightness of His[God's] glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power."Hebrews;1:3
     
  12. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    6,768
    Ratings:
    +475
    I do not rely on the Epistles since they are not the words of Christ. They are the words of authors who sometimes cannot even be established. As far as the Epistle to the Hebrews goes, its not a Petrine Epistle, and Peter is the primary authority within the Apostles. It is not a Pauline Epistle, and Paul never met Jesus nor heard Him in the flesh in Paul's entire life. It is not from Timothy. It has been attributed to Barnabas but there is nothing to really suggest that. Whoever wrote it was very fluent in Greek and Barnabas probably was not. Its author COULDhave been Silas (Clement I) but there is again no evidence. Whoever wrote it did not really have Aramaic or Hebrew other than in a scholarly sense.

    I think you cut the verse which is really bad to do, since single-versing the text is very bad for understanding.

    " 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,


    2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:


    4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

    6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. (King James version)

    Let's go a little more literal from the Darby:
    "
    Hebrews 1



    1God having spoken in many parts and in many ways formerly to the fathers in the prophets,

    2at the end of these days has spoken to us in [the person of the] Son, whom he has established heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    3who being [the] effulgence of his glory and [the] expression of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, having made [by himself] the purification of sins, set himself down on the right hand of the greatness on high,

    4taking a place by so much better than the angels, as he inherits a name more excellent than they.

    5For to which of the angels said he ever, *Thou* art my Son: this day have *I* begotten thee? and again, *I* will be to him for father, and *he* shall be to me for son?

    6and again, when he brings in the firstborn into the habitable world, he says, And let all God's angels worship him.

    7And as to the angels he says, Who makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire; 8but as to the Son, Thy throne, O God, [is] to the age of the age, and a sceptre of uprightness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    and the Young's Literal:

    "
    Hebrews 1



    1In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,

    2in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

    3who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might -- through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,

    4having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they.

    5For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?'

    6and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'

    7and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;' 8and unto the Son: `Thy throne, O God, [is] to the age of the age; a scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of thy reign;

    As is plain to see, Jesus cannot sit on His own right hand, He sits on the right hand of God the Father. God and Son are seperate.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  13. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    Hey, Scott, just wanted to say thanks for the link and the instructions. I look forward to using Oceans, its downloading as I type. Thanks again for taking the time to help me with this.

    I was reading some of the above discussion, in my religion, we believe that Jesus is God as much as the Father is God, and as much as the Holy Spirit is God. We believe that blood of Christ washed away our sins, that by believing that, and that he rose again physicaly from the grave, we our forgiven, that he paid for our sins on the cross. I guess you all know I already believe that though.

    My download is complete, lol, bye!

    Thanks!

    Joeboonda
     
  14. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    Ha, cool! Oceans has everyone's books! You all should check it out!
     
  15. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    19,902
    Ratings:
    +3,251
    Cf. John 10.34: "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

    "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." That is not a claim of omnipresence.

    "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." That is not a claim of omniscience.

    "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." This is open to several interpretations, one of which is that if all power is given to Jesus, it is not his by nature.

    Prosekynesan would be better rendered venerated than worshiped.

    This passage just says that's what certain of the scribes believed.

    I don't have any problem with your beliefs, just with this kind of prooftexting.
     
  16. Darkdale

    Darkdale World Leader Pretend

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2005
    Messages:
    3,216
    Ratings:
    +413
    My gods could totally take Jesus in a fight. :)
     
  17. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    6,768
    Ratings:
    +475
    I think Jesus was the ultimate aikiddo master in a spiritual sense. Hard to take one of them in a fight, and heaven knows you'll never get them to strike the first blow.

    Regards,
    Scott:bounce
     
  18. Darkdale

    Darkdale World Leader Pretend

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2005
    Messages:
    3,216
    Ratings:
    +413
    A Spiritual Sense? lol :p One swing of Thor's Hammer and the whole thing is over. Of course, I'm not really serious. But I bet your average Asatruar could tkae your average anyone else in a fight if you let us bring our weapons or not. :162:
     
  19. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    28,675
    Ratings:
    +2,658
    I'm in on this one, now that Darkdale has said that his Gods wou;ld beat Jesus Christ up! No way !:D

    In very simple terms, if I was to try and explain God, Jesus and the Trinity to a child, I would put it this way:- Imagine that God is a being who is so supreme, that he can do anything.

    One day, he wanted to tell the world the real story about himself; so he split a bit of his body off, and made it into a whole man; that whole man was Jesus Christ, and God sent this man this 'bit of him' down to earth, to teach everyone how to behave.

    That was Christ. When he died, he went back to heaven, and God re-absorbed him, within himself again. So, Christ is God (or a bit of him if you like)
     
  20. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,392
    Ratings:
    +50
    Since you chose to change the subject! If I were going to tell a child the TRUTH, I would tell him God is unseen and in that unknowable, He sent His word into this world via Moses, who wrote the "Word of God" in Torah, in Torah he(God thru Moses) told mankind he was sending an emmisary into the world as the "word made flesh". This sent one is Yeshua, the only begotten son of the unseen God! But that is just me, kids love fairytales, so to tell a child truth is just plain dull. So tell him lies and feed him candy. Now that is the way to go. Rot his brain as you rot his teeth!:jiggy:
    Shalom
     
Loading...