Jesus – Judas- Betrayal

[Aqualung]

Don't put words in my mouth.

If you don't say what you mean, and leave a big gap, people are going to fill it up. To keep people from putting words in your mouth, you need to put them there yourself.

 

[Halcyon]

Did I say that? No I didn't. Did you read what I wrote? Apparently not. Judas never accepted Christ as the Messiah from the beginning. Once he realized Jesus was not going to overthrow the Roman government, he sold Him out. He never asked for forgiveness or accpeted Jesus as the Son of God. Woe to Judas meant eternal separation from God and Jesus Christ. The guilt that overcame Judas and led to his suicide was betraying an innocent man whom he knew was no threat to Roman rule, not a desire to repent and accept Christ as the Messiah. Don't put words in my mouth.

I'm not, i asked you a question - see, i used one of these - - > ?

What i meant was, surely Christ would forgive Judas for betraying him, so why the eternal separation from God?

 

[Linus]

I guess he could have been completely repentent, but not forgiven, because he did not ask forgiveness.

That would certainly be the indication of the texts as I read them.

 

[lilithu]

That would certainly be the indication of the texts as I read them.

If God knows what is in our hearts, why do we actually have to physcially ask for forgiveness to be forgiven?

 

[NoName]

If God knows what is in our hearts, why do we actually have to physcially ask for forgiveness to be forgiven?

If you were truely repentent, why wouldn't you ask?

 

[lilithu]

If you were truely repentent, why wouldn't you ask?

You may not have realized that you could.

 

[NoName]

Perhaps. And then perhaps that's why he killed himself. He thought all hope was gone, and there was nothing more to do. No hope for forgiveness, so he killed himself.

 

[lilithu]

Perhaps. And then perhaps that's why he killed himself. He thought all hope was gone, and there was nothing more to do. No hope for forgiveness, so he killed himself.

Yes, I think that's why he killed himself. But then his ultimate sin was not the betrayal of Christ but of not having enough faith in God's forgiveness. Still, I believe in a loving God. And if Judas was truly remorseful, which the text seems to imply, then I believe that God ultimately forgave Judas despite Judas' lack of faith.

 

[Aqualung]

Yes, I think that's why he killed himself. But then his ultimate sin was not the betrayal of Christ but of not having enough faith in God's forgiveness. Still, I believe in a loving God. And if Judas was truly remorseful, which the text seems to imply, then I believe that God ultimately forgave Judas despite Judas' lack of faith.

I agree with you on this one.

 

[blueman]

If you don't say what you mean, and leave a big gap, people are going to fill it up. To keep people from putting words in your mouth, you need to put them there yourself.

There was no ambiguity in my initial statements about Judas, so there was no need to fill in the any blanks for me.

 

[blueman]

I'm not, i asked you a question - see, i used one of these - - > ?

What i meant was, surely Christ would forgive Judas for betraying him, so why the eternal separation from God?

There was a reason Christ made that statement about Judas and it just was not applicable to his pending suicide. Jesus knew both Judas' heart and motives. He was doomed. He never bought into Christ being the annointed Son of God in the first place and allowed Satan to overtake his mind in the end

 

[michel]

Yes, I think that's why he killed himself. But then his ultimate sin was not the betrayal of Christ but of not having enough faith in God's forgiveness. Still, I believe in a loving God. And if Judas was truly remorseful, which the text seems to imply, then I believe that God ultimately forgave Judas despite Judas' lack of faith.

I see it that way too, lilithu.

 

[may]

The Bible does not discuss in detail the motives for his corrupt course, but an incident that occurred on Nisan 9, 33 C.E., five days before Jesus’ death, sheds light on the matter. At Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, Mary, Lazarus’ sister, anointed Jesus with perfumed oil worth 300 denarii, about a year’s wages for a laborer. (Mt 20:2) Judas strongly objected that the oil could have been sold and the money "given to the poor people." Evidently other apostles merely assented to what seemed to be a valid point, but Jesus rebuked them. Judas’ real reason for objecting was that he cared for the money box and he "was a thief . . . and used to carry off the monies" put in the box. So Judas was a greedy, practicing thief.—Joh 12:2-7; Mt 26:6-12; Mr 14:3-8

 

[lilithu]

The Bible does not discuss in detail the motives for his corrupt course, but an incident that occurred on Nisan 9, 33 C.E., five days before Jesus’ death, sheds light on the matter. At Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, Mary, Lazarus’ sister, anointed Jesus with perfumed oil worth 300 denarii, about a year’s wages for a laborer. (Mt 20:2) Judas strongly objected that the oil could have been sold and the money "given to the poor people." Evidently other apostles merely assented to what seemed to be a valid point, but Jesus rebuked them. Judas’ real reason for objecting was that he cared for the money box and he "was a thief . . . and used to carry off the monies" put in the box. So Judas was a greedy, practicing thief.—Joh 12:2-7; Mt 26:6-12; Mr 14:3-8

Judas objected to expensive oil being used on Jesus when it could have been sold and the money given to the poor. To that point, everybody agrees. The author of John says that the reason why Judas objected was because he wanted the money for himself. Matthew and Mark, the two older gospels, do not say why Judas objected. They don't pretend to know what was in Judas' head. They merely report the events that happened. Very expensive oil was used and Judas objected that it could have been used for the poor. You choose to believe that his motivation was deceit. But another interpretation that is just as valid is that he really thought that the money should be used to give to the poor. When Judas believed that Jesus was wasting valuable resources on himself instead of helping others, Judas became disillusioned with Jesus and turned him in. Again, his sin was not understanding Jesus, not having enough faith, which frankly, none of the apostles understood him until after his ressurection. Judas' difference was that he was an idealist and took action, while the other apostles bumbled around.

If one reads Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Peter is a bumbler (unlike John which tends to portray him much more favorably at the expense of the other apostles). He doesn't act when he should act. He acts when he shouldn't act. He betrays Jesus three times by denying that he knows his Lord. I'm not condemning Peter because, obviously, after the ressurection, after Peter really understands, he is the stalwart of faith, even insisting that he be crucified upside down in the end because it was too good for him to die the same way that his Lord did. But none of the apostles "got it" while Jesus was alive. And Judas didn't "get it" either. That doesn't mean that he was evil incarnate as John and many Christians want to believe of him. He was a human being as were all the apostles, imperfect in understanding, and he paid the price for his imperfect actions. Call it karma or whatever. It does no good to vilify someone other than to deny the possibility of imperfection in oneself.