Jeremiah 31:32

[CMike]

Originally Posted by CMike
You said 6:1 before.



What does this have to do with intentional vs unintentional sins?

didnt you say there were no offerings for intentional sinners under the mosaic law?

Those are offereings for sin that are unintentional.

 

[CMike]

4:
2. Speak to the children of Israel, saying: If a person sins unintentionally [by committing one] of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, and he commits [part] of one of them

13. And if the entire community of Israel errs because a matter was hidden from the eyes of the congregation, and they commit one of all of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, incurring guilt;

14. When the sin which they had committed becomes known, the congregation shall bring a young bull as a sin offering. They shall bring it before the Tent of Meeting

22. If a leader [of Israel] sins and unintentionally commits one of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, incurring guilt;

27. If one person of the people of the land commits a sin unintentionally, by his committing one of the commandments of the Lord which may not be committed, incurring guilt;

Ch 5

15. If a person commits a betrayal and trespasses unintentionally against [one] of the things sacred to the Lord, he shall bring as his guilt offering to the Lord an unblemished ram from the flock with a value of silver shekels, in accordance with the shekel of the Sanctuary for a guilt offering.

17. If a person sins and commits one of the commandments of the Lord which may not be committed, but he does not know, he is guilty, and he shall bear his transgression.

So where is your list of sacrifices done for "intentional" sins?

All these sins are unintentional.

 

[Dinner123]

I notice you like to make statements without quoting any Scriptural (and by that of course I mean "OT") verses to back them up. Not always. But often. And then I complain about conjecture and ignore them and we get nowhere.

We've been talking about the cure. It's the new Covenant that comes through Jesus blood. Don't you know that Moses sprinkled blood on the people? But you think the new Covenant which is obviously so much better (being in the heart instead of stones) will come without shedding of blood?
Isaiah 53 is all the proof you need to believe in the mediator of the new Covenant which is the Messiah.
The new Covenant is better than the old Covenant. Therefore, the Mediator of the new Covenant will be even greater than Moses.

I don't understand your Christian-talk about the way getting broader.

The path of righteousness hasn't become easier to travel on.

G-d always wanted "inward purity" as you call it. G-d wants everything: our hearts, lives and strength. There are tens of verses about that.

You are correct, the Law says to do it. Jesus gives the ability to do it. Which is the holy Spirit.

If we make a peace treaty. And then get into a war. And then at the end of the war we make another peace treaty. That is called a new treaty. Even if everything is the same, it is new, because the old one was broken. We can take the old one, make a photocopy and affix our signatures on it again. But we will have to change the date. Because its a new treaty.

If God says it is not according to the old one, then it's changed more than the date.

As I have clearly explained in my OP, the verses is clearly comparing the new treaty to the old one: what I had already had given to you, will now be put in you. That is why it is not like the old one. Because the old one wasn't in us. Yes, the verse does say the covenant will change. But it also explains what the change will be.

So you're saying it's according to the old but in the heart this time.

If it is according to the old Covenant but in the heart then He wouldn't say it is not according to the old Covenant. He would just get to the point and say He would put the Law in your heart so you'd obey it.

Not at all. But there if you would like to make a connection between this verse in Isaiah and that quote about lepers, than you had best provide Scriptural support. And of course by Scriptures, I mean OT.

It's the same concept. What's the difference between comparing our unrighteousness to menstrual rags or leprosy? Either way it's unclean.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Can you provide Scriptural support to the claim that G-d creates statements in Scriptures that did not actually take place at the point in context that they were made in order to grant us a prophecy? Also, that G-d lies since according to your explanation, there is no one else in the conversation at the point in context of this verse.

According to the Bible you believe in, God is the "I Am that I Am" and "a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." So, there is no time to God. He is eternal. So, He is not lying though He speaks to the future as if it were present or even past. Let us understand who it is we speak of. For God said in a certain place "Is anything to hard for me?"

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Also, what you are saying is: By G-d saying "We will make man," He actually meant "A man will be the Messiah." Are you seeing any logical leaps here or missing information? Why not just write "I will make a messiah to fulfill whatever it is Dinner thinks needs fulfilling"? If you tell me it was only an allusion to this messiah, then what is the non-allusion information that the verse is conveying?

He spoke directly to the Messiah who would be given power to remake man in His image. He also spoke of the original creation of man who was in the image of God created male and female. I've heard the other arguments. “Royal we” “speaking to His heavenly court” These arguments fall short, yet the word is there and it's meaning is clear. God spoke to someone. Don't just ignore it, because man shall live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God. As it says "that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live."

The truth is that God would establish all things in Messiah from the beginning. But, we need eyes to see and ears to hear Messiah. Truly He didn't speak in secret, but is there from the beginning, yet the truth is hidden in plain sight because of the blindness of our hearts. More on that later.

Furthermore, we see the concept in Daniel chapter 7. That eventually the saints would be the body of Messiah.
In verse 13 Daniel sees the Son of man(singular) come before God.
Later on though in verse 22, the angel explains to him that the Son of man is the saints(plural) that receive the kingdom. How is it this Son of man is singular and plural? I can tell you why, because it is the Messiah at the head of the saints; His body. So the truth is there throughout the scriptures.

In most cases, NT verses as proof texts, don't really help your case in debate with Jews.

To show you that the NT is correct in it's interpretation of the scriptures.

The reason is quite simple. Because the verse and indeed the whole chapter already has a clear meaning that doesn't require any additional information. G-d is saying that He makes changes in order to provide for His nation. They need to get through a desert? Here's a nice path. Some water? Here's a river. Then, through these changes, other creatures also receive benefit.

Scripture is from God and spiritually discerned.

Isa. 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

You can't see the things of God without the inspiration of God. All of us are those who grope at noonday as if it were pitch darkness; when it comes to the things of God. Because He has set the world in our hearts. (Ecc 3:11)

No, that's not what I'm telling you at all. I'm saying that in context your explanation makes no sense. If you want to stick with your explanation, then you need to make it fit. You can't just cherry-pick verses as proof. Verses come with a context. Apparently your answer is: David had no idea what he was saying. I think that's absurd, to say that in order to get your ideology to fit with David, you have to give him dementia. But that's your prerogative.

I didn't say that. he may not have understood the full import of what He was saying. And, then again, he may have understood quite a bit! I was making the point the God was saying this. For example Balaam tried to curse, but could only bless, because of God. David spoke what the Spirit wanted. I'm not cherry picking.

 

[Dinner123]

The sacrifices of the temple discussion is really irrelevant.

They dealt with unintentional sins. Intentional sins you can't bring sacrifices for.

Therefore, the jesus sacrificed himself for everyone's sins theory doesn't work.

So God requires animals to die for unintentional sins, but lets you go free for intentional sins without any blood? Then should God apologize to the animals? It's just not right to kill animals for sins when God lets you off free for even worse sins.

But, Jesus explains everything because He is the sacrifice for our intentional sins, even for those who came before Him. Isaiah 53, God laid the iniquities of us all on Him. Without Him not even the people that came before could be redeemed. God spoke from the beginning that He would give a sacrifice. Many believed, even Abraham. Isaac was a typology. And Abraham said, "My son, God will provide himself a lamb" That is Jesus the promised seed of Abraham, who possesses the gates of His enemies. Death and the grave.

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; (Gen 22:17)

I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (Hosea 13:14)

Rev 1:18 (OJB)
And HaChai (The Living One), and I became Niftar, I had my histalkus (passing), and, hinei, Chai Ani l’Olam va’ed (I am alive forevermore) and I have the maftekhot haMavet (keys of Death) and the maftekhot haShe’ol (keys of the abode of the Dead).

 

[CMike]

So God requires animals to die for unintentional sins, but lets you go free for intentional sins without any blood? Then should God apologize to the animals? It's just not right to kill animals for sins when God lets you off free for even worse sins.

Oy vey.

What's with this obsession with blood? Do you worship vampires?

Blood was never that important. In fact, sacrifices are not that important relative to sincerely repenting for the sins.

Animals were the main property people owned at that time. The sacrifice was the loss of that property.

What G-D has said is most important is recognizing your sin, and doing your best to not do it again. That's how you gain forgiveness.

Also, repenting for sins is a lot harder than sacrificing an animal.

But, Jesus explains everything because He is the sacrifice for our intentional sins, even for those who came before Him.

Where do I even begin?

1) Jesus being executed is not a sacrifice for you. You lost nothing of value. You sacrificed nothing because jesus was executed

2) Jesus didn't even sacrifice himself. He was caught and executed. It's not like he slit his wrists, or closed himself in a garage with the car running.

Since he whinned "why have you forsaken me?" he didn't want to die.

3) Human sacrifice is a grave sin in judaism.

4) You are responsible for repenting and getting forgiveness for your own sins. It's up to you to do the work to gain forgiveness by trying to improve, just like G-D instructed Cain.



I

saiah 53, God laid the iniquities of us all on Him. Without Him not even the people that came before could be redeemed. God spoke from the beginning that He would give a sacrifice. Many believed, even Abraham. Isaac was a typology. And Abraham said, "My son, God will provide himself a lamb" That is Jesus the promised seed of Abraham, who possesses the gates of His enemies. Death and the grave.

Isaiah 53 has absolutely nothing to do with jesus. It even has nothing to do with the actual messiah.

Here is a very short analysis of it.

Jews For Judaism | Isaiah 53 Explained

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; (Gen 22:17)

And that is what G-D told Abraham. We agree on something.

Obviously what the christian bible say has no relevance for me.

 

[RabbiO]

Rev 1:18 (OJB)
And HaChai (The Living One), and I became Niftar, I had my histalkus (passing), and, hinei, Chai Ani l’Olam va’ed (I am alive forevermore) and I have the maftekhot haMavet (keys of Death) and the maftekhot haShe’ol (keys of the abode of the Dead).

I am wondering if I am the only one who finds it interesting that you are quoting from self named and described "The Orthodox Jewish Bible", a volume that is neither Orthodox nor Jewish.

Peter

 

[CMike]

We've been talking about the cure. It's the new Covenant that comes through Jesus blood. Don't you know that Moses sprinkled blood on the people? But you think the new Covenant which is obviously so much better (being in the heart instead of stones) will come without shedding of blood?

How can what G-D created possibly be made better?

You do realize there is no logic in what you are saying.

Isaiah 53 is all the proof you need to believe in the mediator of the new Covenant which is the Messiah.
The new Covenant is better than the old Covenant. Therefore, the Mediator of the new Covenant will be even greater than Moses.?

Isaiah 53 is about Israel. It has nothing to do with the messiah.

There is no "old covenant". The covenant that G-D made with the jewish people will last forever, according to G-D. There is no making what G-D made better. :faint:

The path of righteousness hasn't become easier to travel on.
You are correct, the Law says to do it. Jesus gives the ability to do it. Which is the holy Spirit.
If God says it is not according to the old one, then it's changed more than the date.

Jesus changed nothing for the jews. G-D said there is only him and we are trust no one to him. That jesus would even try to change what G-D said means that jesus created grave sins. He would fall under Deuterenomy 13.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all..

Yup, and that servant is Israel. It's clearly mentioned in Isaiah 52 and 54. It's part of the same prophesy. There were no chapter in the original Isaiah writings.

 

[Tumah]

We've been talking about the cure. It's the new Covenant that comes through Jesus blood. Don't you know that Moses sprinkled blood on the people? But you think the new Covenant which is obviously so much better (being in the heart instead of stones) will come without shedding of blood?

So you are going to compare actual blood of animals that are acceptable as sacrifices and sacrificed in the method of other sacrifices, that was sprinkled on all the people, to what? To the blood a person that can't be used as a sacrifice, that wasn't sacrificed the way sacrifices are sacrificed that wasn't sprinkled on any of the people?

This is not a mix-and-match game. You can't take a little from here and little from there add a little gin, shake it up and expect it to go down smoothly.

Isaiah 53 is all the proof you need to believe in the mediator of the new Covenant which is the Messiah.

I'm quite familiar with Isaiah 53. I don't read anything there about Jesus.

The new Covenant is better than the old Covenant. Therefore, the Mediator of the new Covenant will be even greater than Moses.

Oh. Hi conjecture. How are you today?

The path of righteousness hasn't become easier to travel on.

*nods sagely*

You are correct, the Law says to do it. Jesus gives the ability to do it. Which is the holy Spirit.

So you are saying, G-d commanded us to do something but doesn't give us the ability to do it and then holds it against us? That doesn't sound very fair. Or kind. Or smart.

Practically speaking you are obviously wrong. I know plenty of people who have attained this.

If God says it is not according to the old one, then it's changed more than the date.

So you're saying it's according to the old but in the heart this time.

If it is according to the old Covenant but in the heart then He wouldn't say it is not according to the old Covenant. He would just get to the point and say He would put the Law in your heart so you'd obey it.

Well, let's get the actual words are:
לֹא - no
כברית - like prefix + covenant
אשר - which/that
כרתי - cut + first person, perfective form suffix
את - no English parallel, just points to object
אבותם - fathers + third person, plural, suffix

Translation: Not like the covenant which I cut with their fathers.

It isn't like that covenant. That was an external covenant and this one will be internal. As the next verse clearly explains.

It's the same concept. What's the difference between comparing our unrighteousness to menstrual rags or leprosy? Either way it's unclean.

Is this true? There are no other differences?

Isaiah 53:3 ...

Yes, I know the history of my people. Pogroms, crusades and expulsions.

According to the Bible you believe in, God is the "I Am that I Am" and "a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." So, there is no time to God. He is eternal. So, He is not lying though He speaks to the future as if it were present or even past. Let us understand who it is we speak of. For God said in a certain place "Is anything to hard for me?"

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Although I don't disagree that G-d is outside the confines of time, none of the verses you brought actually describe that. They only point to that idea that G-d has been around a while.

You have no brought any proof that G-d interacts with us, through Scriptures, is manner that transcends time by randomly speaking about future events in the middle of describing a past event.

He spoke directly to the Messiah who would be given power to remake man in His image. He also spoke of the original creation of man who was in the image of God created male and female. I've heard the other arguments. “Royal we” “speaking to His heavenly court” These arguments fall short, yet the word is there and it's meaning is clear. God spoke to someone.

The "royal we" actually is the most simple explanation of the verse. G-d days, "We will make man in Our image..." and when the verse actually describes it, it says "...in his image..."

Just like a story about a king would go, "and the king said 'let us eat out lunch'... and the king ate his lunch."

The truth is that God would establish all things in Messiah from the beginning. But, we need eyes to see and ears to hear Messiah. Truly He didn't speak in secret, but is there from the beginning, yet the truth is hidden in plain sight because of the blindness of our hearts. More on that later.

I find the irony here astounding. You are blinding yourself to the clear meanings of all the verses from established prophets on the basis of the words of a few men and calling everyone else blind. How many times have I provided you and other Christians nothing more than a word for word translation of the verse according to the grammatical rules present everywhere else in Scriptures. And rather than see what the verse actually says, you run behind the translations made by people with a motive. Which one of us is blind to what G-d is actually saying?

Furthermore, we see the concept in Daniel chapter 7. That eventually the saints would be the body of Messiah.
In verse 13 Daniel sees the Son of man(singular) come before God.
Later on though in verse 22, the angel explains to him that the Son of man is the saints(plural) that receive the kingdom. How is it this Son of man is singular and plural? I can tell you why, because it is the Messiah at the head of the saints; His body. So the truth is there throughout the scriptures.

First of all, I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but much of Daniel is in Aramaic not Hebrew. Chapter 7 happens to be one of the Aramaic ones. In Aramaic בר אנש lit. son of man, is a term for "person." The Talmud and Zohar, also written in a later dialect of Aramaic, uses the same form of terminology, בר נש when speaking about a "person." It even has a Hebrew counterpart that you can google translate: בן אדם. So let's just clarify that the "Son of man" is really just a way of saying, "a person".

Secondly, in verse 22 the "holy ones" are clearly Israel. Isa. 60, "and your nation all are righteous, forever they will inherit [the] land.' See verse 27 "and kingdom and dominion and greatness of the kingdoms under all the heavens will be given to a nation of holy ones of most high...."

The person in the earlier verse, the Messiah, will be the king of the kingdom, but the kingdom will be a kingdom of Israel.

The judgement in 22 that is given for the "holy ones" is the the sentence G-d will pass down on those who have persecuted Israel.

To show you that the NT is correct in it's interpretation of the scriptures.

Then it is best if you brought the Scriptural verse next to it for comparative purposes.

Scripture is from God and spiritually discerned.

Isa. 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

This verse doesn't say what you are saying it says. It is saying that no one has seen the reward that G-d has in store for people. This has nothing to do with Scriptures.

You can't see the things of God without the inspiration of God. All of us are those who grope at noonday as if it were pitch darkness; when it comes to the things of God. Because He has set the world in our hearts. (Ecc 3:11)

Again, this and that are two different things. G-d sets the world in our heart. That has nothing to do with being able to understand Scriptures.

Deut. 3:11-14 "Because this commandment that I have commanded you today, it is not [too] wondrous for you and not far for you... because the thing (davar- word) is very close to you, in your mouth and in your heart, to do."

Scriptures is very easy to understand. All you need to do is read it.

I didn't say that. he may not have understood the full import of what He was saying. And, then again, he may have understood quite a bit! I was making the point the God was saying this. For example Balaam tried to curse, but could only bless, because of God. David spoke what the Spirit wanted. I'm not cherry picking.

This is true. However, Balaam recognizes it and exclaims about it. He doesn't imply that everything he says is controlled by G-d. Just one instance where he intended to say something against G-d's will.
In fact, in parallel to our case of David who is talking to G-d, when Balaam speaks to G-d, we find no suggestion that his words were being controlled.
So can you provide verses where David is actually speaking words that he doesn't intend? Specifically, in the verses you want it to be true about.

Alternatively, if David does intend to say what he says, can you provide Scriptural reasoning to explain why he, his children and everyone relevant to him continue to perform sacrifices even though David knew G-d didn't want it?

Don't you think you are going at it backwards? When Scripture doesn't fit your belief, you tweak it a little to make it work. Rather than looking at what Scriptures says and formulating your belief accordingly.

 

[dantech]

So Tumah, is that patience running out yet? Your posts are so clearly written and explained, it must take so much time. I remember when I took that time. Now, I no longer have the patience, I much prefer watching you and CMike do your things

 

[Tumah]

So Tumah, is that patience running out yet? Your posts are so clearly written and explained, it must take so much time. I remember when I took that time. Now, I no longer have the patience, I much prefer watching you and CMike do your things

I'm learning to pick my battles. Some posters I don't even bother with. Most of it is pretty standard: Read verse in original language, correct mis-translated words, offer more accurate translation. At the end of the day though, I don't think I'm really having any effect. It just hurts when you see something precious being used to clean the floors with.

 

[dantech]

I'm learning to pick my battles. Some posters I don't even bother with. Most of it is pretty standard: Read verse in original language, correct mis-translated words, offer more accurate translation. At the end of the day though, I don't think I'm really having any effect. It just hurts when you see something precious being used to clean the floors with.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Dinner123]

Hopefully I'll get to my response soon. I see that I've received quite a lot of feedback here and I'm a bit busy today.

God will cause His face to shine upon Israel again and He will heal the hurt of the daughter of His people. The nation of Israel has suffered and gone through great persecution. But I will show that Isa. 53 cannot be the nation of Israel. Not that I expect anyone to just receive what I say. But, I need to speak the truth nonetheless. It must be the Messiah and it fits Jesus perfectly.

 

[2ndpillar]

I'm learning to pick my battles. Some posters I don't even bother with. Most of it is pretty standard: Read verse in original language, correct mis-translated words, offer more accurate translation. At the end of the day though, I don't think I'm really having any effect. It just hurts when you see something precious being used to clean the floors with.

Dear Tumah,
You will be happy to hear that "in that day" (Ze 12:3), I wouldn't want to fight with Judah. Zechariah 12, which pretty much details the last 3 Israeli wars and the coming 4th, has God fighting the wars for Judah. As we are "in those days, and at that time" when the "fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem", are being restored (Joel 3:2), and the "tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites" (Palistinians refugee camps), are camped around Jerusalem, conspiring to "wipe" out "Israel", can you give a proper interpretation of Ze 12:10, which is to happen just after the nations come again to gather against Jerusalem, and are finally completely destroyed by the plagues of God (tongue rotting in mouth, radiation poisoning) in Ze 14:10.

 

[CMike]

Here is more analysis of Isaiah 53

Jews For Judaism | Isaiah 53

Isaiah 53

By Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz

A. PRELIMINARY ISSUES

...Second (and consistent with all Jewish teaching at the time), Jesus’ own disciples didn’t view Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. For example, after Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Matt. 16:16), he is informed that Jesus will be killed (Matt. 16:21). His response: "God forbid it, lord! This shall never happen to you" (Matt. 16:22). See, also, Mk. 9:31-32; Mk. 16:10-11; Jn. 20:9. Even Jesus didn’t see Isaiah 53 as crucial to his messianic claims – why else did he call the Jews children of the devil for not believing in him before the alleged resurrection (Jn. 8:39-47)? And why did he later request that God "remove this cup from me" (Mk. 14:36) – didn’t he know that a "removal of the cup" would violate the gentile understanding of Isaiah 53?
And third, even if we accept the gentile Christian interpretation of Isaiah 53, where is it indicated (either in Isaiah 53 or anywhere else in our Jewish Scriptures) that you must believe in this "Messiah" to get the benefits?
B. CONTEXT

Since any portion of Scripture is only understood properly when viewed in the context of God’s revelation as a whole, some additional study will be helpful before you "tackle" Isaiah 53.
Look at the setting in which Isaiah 53 occurs. Earlier on in Isaiah, God had predicted exile and calamity for the Jewish people. Chapter 53, however, occurs in the midst of Isaiah’s "Messages of Consolation", which tell of the restoration of Israel to a position of prominence and a vindication of their status as God’s chosen people. In chapter 52, for example, Israel is described as "oppressed without cause" (v.4) and "taken away" (v.5), yet God promises a brighter future ahead, one in which Israel will again prosper and be redeemed in the sight of all the nations (v.1-3, 8-12).
Chapter 54 further elaborates upon the redemption which awaits the nation of Israel. Following immediately after chapter 53′s promise of a reward for God’s servant in return for all of its suffering (53:10-12), chapter 54 describes an unequivocally joyous fate for the Jewish people. Speaking clearly of the Jewish people and their exalted status (even according to all Christian commentaries), chapter 54 ends as follows: "`This is the heritage of the servants of the L-rd and their vindication is from Me,’ declares the L-rd."
C. ISAIAH 53

In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions, and Jew and Christian alike agree that chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13. Accordingly, our analysis must begin at that verse.
52:13 "Behold, My servant will prosper." Israel in the singular is called God’s servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) – the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as God’s servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by God, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is God, is God His own servant?
52:15 – 53:1 "So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?" Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the "servant of the L-rd," and they will say "who would believe what we have heard?". 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations’ astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.

53:1 "And to whom has the arm of the L-rd been revealed?" In Isaiah, and throughout our Scriptures, God’s "arm" refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations (see, e.g., Isa. 52:8-12; Isa.

63:12; Deut. 4:34; Deut. 7:19; Ps. 44:3).

53:3 "Despised and rejected of men." While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly "praised by all" (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared "a riot of the people" (Mk. 14:1-2).

53:3 "A man of pains and acquainted with disease." Israel’s adversities are frequently likened to sickness – see, e.g., Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12.

53:4 "Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore." In Matt. 8:17, this is correctly translated, and said to be literally (not spiritually) fulfilled in Jesus’ healing of the sick, a reading inconsistent with the Christian mistranslation of 53:4 itself.

53:4 "Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of G- D and afflicted." See Jer. 30:17 – of God’s servant Israel (30:10), it is said by the nations, "It is Zion; no one cares for her."

53:5 "But he was wounded from (NOTE: not for) our transgressions, he was crushed from (AGAIN: not for) our iniquities." Whereas the nations had thought the Servant (Israel) was undergoing Divine retribution for its sins (53:4), they now realize that the Servant’s sufferings stemmed from their actions and sinfulness. This theme is further developed throughout our Jewish Scriptures – see, e.g., Jer. 50:7; Jer. 10:25. ALSO: Note that the Messiah "shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth" (Isa. 42:4).

53:7 "He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth." Note that in the prior chapter (Isa. 52), Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel’s faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as "sheep to be slaughtered" in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11).
Regarding the claim that Jesus "did not open his mouth" when faced with oppression and affliction, see Matt. 27:46, Jn. 18:23, 36-37.

53:8 "From dominion and judgement he was taken away." Note the correct translation of the Hebrew. The Christians are forced to mistranslate, since – by Jesus’ own testimony – he never had any rights to rulership or judgement, at least not on the "first coming." See, e.g., Jn. 3:17; Jn. 8:15; Jn. 12:47; Jn. 18:36.

53:8 "He was cut off out of the land of the living."

53:9 "His grave was assigned with wicked men." See Ez. 37:11-14, wherein Israelis described as "cut off" and God promises to open its "graves" and bring Israel back into its own land. Other examples of figurative deaths include Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9.

53:8 "From my peoples’ sins, there was injury to them." Here the Prophet makes absolutely clear, to anyone familiar with Biblical Hebrew, that the oppressed Servant is a collective Servant, not a single individual. The Hebrew word "lamoh", when used in our Scriptures, always means "to them" never "to him" and may be found, for example, in Psalm 99:7 – "They kept his testimonies, and the statute that He gave to them."

53:9 "And with the rich in his deaths." Perhaps King James should have changed the original Hebrew, which again makes clear that we are dealing with a collective Servant, i.e., Israel, which will "come to life" when the exile ends (Ez. 37:14).

53:9 "He had done no violence." See Matt. 21:12; Mk. 11:15-16; Lk. 19:45; Lk. 19:27; Matt. 10:34 and Lk. 12:51; then judge for yourself whether this passage is truly consistent with the New Testament account of Jesus.

53:10 "He shall see his seed." The Hebrew word for "seed", used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures. See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as "sons", is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.).

53:10 "He will prolong his days." Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be God?

53:11 "With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant, will cause many to be just." Note again the correct translation: the Servant will cause many to be just, he will not "justify the many." The Jewish mission is to serve as a "light to the nations" which will ultimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true God, this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zech. 8:23) and by instructing the nations in God’s Law (Isa. 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3).

53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people – who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to God (Ps. 44) – who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?

Isaiah 53: The Suffering Servant

 

[CMike]

So Tumah, is that patience running out yet? Your posts are so clearly written and explained, it must take so much time. I remember when I took that time. Now, I no longer have the patience, I much prefer watching you and CMike do your things

I appreciate Tumah's patience.

Often I find myself not having the patience to go into the details.

Keep up the great work Tumah.

 

[Tumah]

Dear Tumah,
You will be happy to hear that "in that day" (Ze 12:3), I wouldn't want to fight with Judah. Zechariah 12, which pretty much details the last 3 Israeli wars and the coming 4th, has God fighting the wars for Judah. As we are "in those days, and at that time" when the "fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem", are being restored (Joel 3:2), and the "tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites" (Palistinians refugee camps), are camped around Jerusalem, conspiring to "wipe" out "Israel", can you give a proper interpretation of Ze 12:10, which is to happen just after the nations come again to gather against Jerusalem, and are finally completely destroyed by the plagues of God (tongue rotting in mouth, radiation poisoning) in Ze 14:10.

Sure. This is a prophecy about the Messiah!! Here's the translation:

And I will pour on [the] house of David and on [the] dwellers [of] Jerusalem, [a] spirit [of] grace and supplication. And they will look to me - which they stabbed. And they will mourn over him, like the mourning over the individual. And the bitterness over him, like the bitterness over a first-born.

Here's the interpretation:
Towards the end of the war, when things are looking grim a Messiah will stand up to rally Israel and defend Jerusalem. What an incredible time that will be! Finally the Messiah is here! But right at the gates of Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut down by the sword (see Isa. 13:15, דקר or stabbing used here is a word used in conjunction with swords). Imagine the crushing depression that Israel will face. They will turn to G-d in incredible anguish thinking their Messiah is lost! They will mourn bitterly over him, the only one in whom they had awaited for so long.
Is this the end of G-d's nation?

Fear not Israel, for G-d is Eternal and His Promises are eternal. He shall never abandon us. Mourn your mournings over the Messiah son of Joseph whom it had long ago been prophesied would die. Then renew your faith in G-d and await the Messiah, son of David!

Any frubals for dramatics?

 

[2ndpillar]

Sure. This is a prophecy about the Messiah!! Here's the translation:

And I will pour on [the] house of David and on [the] dwellers [of] Jerusalem, [a] spirit [of] grace and supplication. And they will look to me - which they stabbed. And they will mourn over him, like the mourning over the individual. And the bitterness over him, like the bitterness over a first-born.

Here's the interpretation:
Towards the end of the war, when things are looking grim a Messiah will stand up to rally Israel and defend Jerusalem. What an incredible time that will be! Finally the Messiah is here! But right at the gates of Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut down by the sword (see Isa. 13:15, דקר or stabbing used here is a word used in conjunction with swords). Imagine the crushing depression that Israel will face. They will turn to G-d in incredible anguish thinking their Messiah is lost! They will mourn bitterly over him, the only one in whom they had awaited for so long.
Is this the end of G-d's nation?

Fear not Israel, for G-d is Eternal and His Promises are eternal. He shall never abandon us. Mourn your mournings over the Messiah son of Joseph whom it had long ago been prophesied would die. Then renew your faith in G-d and await the Messiah, son of David!

Any frubals for dramatics?

Dear Tumah,
I don't quite follow everything you said. You talk of the Messiah son of Joseph, which would probably be a referral to the dream of Joseph (Gen 37) told to his father Jacob. Being as Joseph was the savior of Israel in Egypt, after being sold into slavery by his brothers. I would think that any reenactment of that type of savior, would follow the same story line, and that Judah would be saved by the remnants of Joseph, in a time of Jacob's need. Such as the remnants of Joseph, "scattered among the nations", in the form of U.S. arms in the Israeli wars of 48, 67, and 73, providing the resources (supplies, analogous to grain, and bullets) to save Israel. Please point out where I have made any improper assumptions.

As for end of God's nation. I think not. We haven't even reached the point where God reunites the stick of Joseph with the stick of Judah. (Ezekiel 37:19-22) Which would be the age when Jeremiah 31:32 is fully enacted, the topic of this thread.

Another question would be why was the Spirit poured out on the house of David in (Ze 12:10), can you describe what the house of David is for me, and can you interpret and explain Zechariah 13:1 for me.

 

[dantech]

Hi 2ndpillar, can I ask.. What is your faith? Are you Christian? I would just like to have a better idea of who you are, if you don't mind.

 

[Tumah]

Dear 2ndpillar,
Hi! How are you? I am fine! I got your letter today! Thank you so much for writing to me! Well, anyway I thought I would answer the questions you sent me.

Dear Tumah,
I don't quite follow everything you said. You talk of the Messiah son of Joseph, which would probably be a referral to the dream of Joseph (Gen 37) told to his father Jacob. Being as Joseph was the savior of Israel in Egypt, after being sold into slavery by his brothers. I would think that any reenactment of that type of savior, would follow the same story line, and that Judah would be saved by the remnants of Joseph, in a time of Jacob's need. Such as the remnants of Joseph, "scattered among the nations", in the form of U.S. arms in the Israeli wars of 48, 67, and 73, providing the resources (supplies, analogous to grain, and bullets) to save Israel. Please point out where I have made any improper assumptions.

My pleasure! Apples and oranges make a great fruit salad. But when speaking about theology and ideology of different religions, its always best to separate your apple from your oranges. In this case you are interpreting Jewish theology with Christian ideology. That's not going to work!

Joseph's dreams were fulfilled in his own time! Joseph didn't save Judah in Egpyt! American arms are not the remnants of Joseph!

Judah was always the king before Joseph, he will be the king after Joseph. Joseph paved the way into the Exile, he will also pave the way out. Joseph's job is to burn Esau (Obadiah 1:18). The third war will be between Edom and Persia.

As for end of God's nation. I think not. We haven't even reached the point where God reunites the stick of Joseph with the stick of Judah. (Ezekiel 37:19-22) Which would be the age when Jeremiah 31:32 is fully enacted, the topic of this thread.

What "end of G-d's nation?" We haven't reached the point of any part of this verse. I have no idea what you're talking about!

Another question would be why was the Spirit poured out on the house of David in (Ze 12:10), can you describe what the house of David is for me, and can you interpret and explain Zechariah 13:1 for me.

It doesn't say the Spirit, it says a spirit! G-d is pouring on the house of David (whose city is in Jerusalem) and the inhabitants of Jerusalem (who live in Jerusalem) at the time when Jerusalem is under siege, a desire to supplicate to Him in order that they find grace in His eyes and be worth of his salvation. Grace (CHeN) and Supplication (SaCHaNuNIM) come from similar roots.

The house of David is the descendants of David. Today that includes a number of people. I personally have seen one genealogy book owned by a family that traces itself back to David and have heard of others that likewise create such a tree. At this point, I think it's very likely that it includes all of Israel as statistically enough generations have passed for that to be true. But that's neither here nor there.

Zecharia 13:1
In that day, a source will be opened for the House of David and for the dwellers of Jerusalem for purification and for sprinkling.

This is good news for Israel, who without the red heifer have lived in a state of impurity of contact with the dead.
Hark back, my friend, to Numbers 19:9
And a pure man shall gather, the ashes of the cow and lay them outside the encampment, in a pure place. And it shall be for the congregation of the children of Israel for a watching (maybe keepsake is a better word, something you watch over), for sprinkling water for purification.

Well, those are all your questions. Thank you so much again for writing! I hope you are having fun wherever you are. Don't forget to keep in touch!

Sincerely,
Tumah

P.S. Maybe next time when posting we can avoid writing in the form of a letter? It just looks kind of weird.

 

[2ndpillar]

Dear 2ndpillar,
Hi! How are you? I am fine! I got your letter today! Thank you so much for writing to me! Well, anyway I thought I would answer the questions you sent me.
My pleasure! Apples and oranges make a great fruit salad. But when speaking about theology and ideology of different religions, its always best to separate your apple from your oranges. In this case you are interpreting Jewish theology with Christian ideology. That's not going to work!

In general, I consider "Christianity", as a "flock doomed to slaughter"(Ze 11:7), and sorely misled on all fronts, but among them you will find remnants of Joseph, and the children of Abraham.

Joseph's dreams were fulfilled in his own time! Joseph didn't save Judah in Egpyt! American arms are not the remnants of Joseph!

Actually, Joseph saved all 11 tribes of Israel, including Judah, from starvation, by providing supplies of grain. The U.S. supplies would not be Joseph, but provided from his remnant, which according to Joel 3:2, "are scattered among the nations."

Judah was always the king before Joseph, he will be the king after Joseph. Joseph paved the way into the Exile, he will also pave the way out. Joseph's job is to burn Esau (Obadiah 1:18). The third war will be between Edom and Persia.

I don't see Joseph as being a king. He was not a king when he rescued Israel in Egypt, and I don't think he will be a king in the future with respect to Obadiah. As for Obadiah 1:18, it reads Joseph who will be a "fire", and it does not mention Persia. How do you come up with your conclusion? Not that Persian can't destroy Esau by trying to destroy Israel, but I don't see your reference. As for what kind of "fire", that would be answered in Ze 14:12.

What "end of G-d's nation?" We haven't reached the point of any part of this

verse. I have no idea what you're talking about!

It relates to Zechariah 12:10, and Ze 14, and Ez 37:19, have not apparently been enacted with respect to Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

It doesn't say the Spirit, it says a spirit! G-d is pouring on the house of David (whose city is in Jerusalem) and the inhabitants of Jerusalem (who live in Jerusalem) at the time when Jerusalem is under siege, a desire to supplicate to Him in order that they find grace in His eyes and be worth of his salvation. Grace (CHeN) and Supplication (SaCHaNuNIM) come from similar roots.

And what "spirit" is that? Will it be like the Spirit of Is 44:3, or like "My Spirit" poured out on the house of Israel, in Ez 39:29, or Joel 2:28? This year, the blood moon will supposedly happen on Passover, as supposedly happened in 1948,67, & 73, and Joel 2:31 is tied to Joel 2:28, "I pour out My Spirit in those days". Joel 2:31,"And the moon into blood".

The house of David is the descendants of David. Today that includes a number of people. I personally have seen one genealogy book owned by a family that traces itself back to David and have heard of others that likewise create such a tree. At this point, I think it's very likely that it includes all of Israel as statistically enough generations have passed for that to be true. But that's neither here nor there.

Is the house of Judah, neither here nor there? Is the house of Judah limited to those who live in Judea, or will the 6.5 million in the U.S. be included? I was looking for something more definitive. I think there is more to the "house of David" than you have presented.

2 Samuel 5:7 NAS Nevertheless, David captured the stronghold of Zion, that is the city of David.
2 Kings 19:31 NAS 'For out of Jerusalem will go forth a remnant, and out of Mount Zion survivors. The zeal of the LORD will perform this.
Psalm 2:6 NAS"But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
Psalm 14:7 NAS Oh , that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion ! When the LORD restores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.
Is 56:6,"6 "Also the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD, To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath And holds fast My covenant ; 7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain

Zecharia 13:1
In that day, a source will be opened for the House of David and for the dwellers of Jerusalem for purification and for sprinkling.

This is good news for Israel, who without the red heifer have lived in a state of impurity of contact with the dead.
Hark back, my friend, to Numbers 19:9
And a pure man shall gather, the ashes of the cow and lay them outside the encampment, in a pure place. And it shall be for the congregation of the children of Israel for a watching (maybe keepsake is a better word, something you watch over), for sprinkling water for purification.

Well, those are all your questions. Thank you so much again for writing! I hope you are having fun wherever you are. Don't forget to keep in touch!

I know you are having fun.