1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

It was 400 years ago today...

Discussion in 'Historical Debates' started by Stevicus, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    14,018
    Ratings:
    +7,242
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    The Mayflower set off for America on September 16, 1620.

    Mayflower - Wikipedia

    When I was a kid learning about the Mayflower the first time, I think we were probably taught more myth than fact. Their reasons for leaving England were ostensibly religious, and they saw America as some kind of "promised land."

    This wasn't actually the first permanent English settlement in America, and there were subsequent settlements on the east coast as more and more colonists trickled in and established a foothold.

    I suppose one way of looking at the significance of the event would be to ask: If the Mayflower never sailed or was lost along the journey, would American history have turned out any differently? Or was this land destined to be colonized and conquered no matter what?
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    15,052
    Ratings:
    +6,399
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    Greed rules all. Conquest, rape, and pillage were inevitable the moment they were possible.
     
  3. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2019
    Messages:
    4,222
    Ratings:
    +3,247
    Religion:
    Orthodox Judaism
    Yeah, I was shocked to discover the pilgrims weren't the first. :sweatsmile:
    I knew it was for religious reasons, though.
    I didn't know until I was in 8th grade I think that "pilgrims" wasn't just a word for that specific group of people. :sweatsmile:
     
  4. Rival

    Rival Noahide
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    16,865
    Ratings:
    +21,012
    Religion:
    בת נח
    We didn't even learn about this at school so everything I've learnt about it comes from talking to US folks themselves.
     
  5. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    170,826
    Ratings:
    +53,879
    Religion:
    Bokononism & Atheism
    Did anyone else see the title & think of
    Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band?
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  6. Wu Wei

    Wu Wei ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    37,550
    Ratings:
    +7,209
    It get worse....there is absolutely no possible way that the Rock , they call Plymouth Rock (The worlds most disappointing historical monument IMO) was the rock that the Pilgrims first stepped on.

    I grew up in Massachusetts, been to Plymouth...saw the rock...that I have since deemed Plymouth Pebble
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Informative Informative x 2
  7. Wu Wei

    Wu Wei ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    37,550
    Ratings:
    +7,209
    No...because that was 20 years ago today in the lyrics.....not 400
     
  8. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    170,826
    Ratings:
    +53,879
    Religion:
    Bokononism & Atheism
    Relative to a 1500# killing machine,
    any rock would be a pebble.
     
  9. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    170,826
    Ratings:
    +53,879
    Religion:
    Bokononism & Atheism
    Hmmm....I thought something sounded a little wrong.
     
  10. Wu Wei

    Wu Wei ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    37,550
    Ratings:
    +7,209
    Yup, but I was a mere cub back then
     
  11. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    65,267
    Ratings:
    +23,348
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Well, it sort of was religious freedom, but more or less over a "so I can do it my way regardless" sort of thing.
    The one major difference is had that not happened the religious right would have to dig deeper as their "Mayflower compact is a part of American law" thoughts wouldn't be there (it's an argument sort of like how Sovereign Citizens will claim the Articles of Confederation). Everything else I think wpuld be largely the same, including our bizarre Holiday of Thanksgiving that included feasts and butchering those who helped the settlers sorry asses survive.
     
  12. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    11,280
    Ratings:
    +9,886
    Religion:
    none
    IIRC (which I may not) they really left Holland where they had been for a decade + after leaving England for the first time. Think they wanted to preserve their children's Englishness by moving somewhere 'untainted' by these European continental types :D
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    15,864
    Ratings:
    +6,683
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    I learn of it as the basis for the holiday. We had some kids dress up as Pilgrims, some as Native Americans. A play/skit of them coming together in peace to have a meal. Native Americans helped the first Pilgrims through their first winter there. Don't really recall anything taught about it after that.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  14. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Ov Fire and the Void
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2012
    Messages:
    30,919
    Ratings:
    +16,021
    Religion:
    Germanic Folk Revival / Left-Hand Path
    Well, the second act would've been the natives dying of diseases they have no immunity to or being killed off by the whites, so of course they're not going to talk about what happened next.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    28,573
    Ratings:
    +9,885
    Religion:
    dystopian Christian
    I'm not so hard on us. Most of the killing was unintentional and was due to invisible microbes that the settlers didn't know about. That much was doomed to happen when Europeans met the early Americans. Smallpox and other diseases ravaged, and the populations never recovered in the century following. Its like Russia that is still recovering from its lost population. Babies don't come from nowhere. So, there was room for some migration.

    I don't think it was an evil decision for people to sail over. I think that going to war was wrong and that seizing land was wrong and viewing the inhabitants as lesser people or a competing race was wrong.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    25,102
    Ratings:
    +19,481
    Religion:
    None
    Interesting factoid.

    While hubby and i were researching our family trees we found that an ancestor of Paul's and an ancestor of mine were both on the same immigrant ship that set sail in 1621. There were just 62 passengers so chances are they knew each other.

    Pauls ancestor, male (euphemistically) died without issue
    Mine, female, never married but was quite prolific, whether one nighters or the fathers walked out or were dumped i have no idea but her offspring kept her (our family) name. Over a couple of hundred years you can see the progress in little clusters of of the name right a across America.

    Footnote. That two ancestors from different parts of the UK (in all probability) met briefly then 375 years later we married is a wonder to us
     
    #16 ChristineM, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    3,537
    Ratings:
    +2,856
    Religion:
    none
    Nope. Wrong sequence. The natives had just survived an epidemic that killed many of them. So they were short of workers and not short of land to live on. That why they welcomed the new settlers.
    (There were more diseases later on, sometime deliberately inflicted on the natives.)
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. Labourwave

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    4,614
    Ratings:
    +3,556
    I don't know anything about the Mayflower, but anyone who thinks that North America was 'destined' to be colonized is dominated by colonial propaganda.
    Manifest destiny was the excuse, not an inevitability.
     
  19. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,833
    Ratings:
    +2,771
    Not so sure it's a matter of colonial propaganda as it is human nature. Humans are explorers and territorial, they're constantly moving into new areas and attempting to dominate them. Long before colonists arrived from Europe the native tribes in the North Americas were were constantly conquering new territory or being pushed out of territory they had inhabited for generations. If Americans had developed faster technologically than the Europeans it's likely that it's native Americans who would have colonized Europe.
     
  20. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    14,018
    Ratings:
    +7,242
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    Well, 'destined' may have been a poor choice of words on my part, since I don't really believe in destiny. I think contact was inevitable, as well as migration from one continent to the other. I was really thinking in terms of whether it could have happened another way. I can understand that there might have been those in Europe who may have faced misery or persecution and could have been tempted by the idea of moving to a far away land across the ocean. Others might have seen it as an economic opportunity.

    As I mentioned in the OP, this is often one of the first things American kids are taught about U.S. history, and the whole story of the Mayflower and the Pilgrims has been treated as one of the monumental, founding events of U.S. pre-history. But was it really that pivotal, or would history have unfolded in the same way anyway?
     
Loading...