Israelis and Palestinians can’t go on like this. Weep for us.

[Harel13]

I think some folks are simply ignorant of the fact there's actually a difference between the two.

In ideological terms, they aren't entirely wrong, because at least some of those Israeli Arabs identify with the Palestinians. That's why you'll find them waving the Palestinian flag and calling for the destruction of Israel. Not all, of course, but certainly some. And the last week may have proven that there are a lot more than was previously thought.
However, in legal terms, there's an enormous difference between the two groups.

 

[Rival]

In ideological terms, they aren't entirely wrong, because at least some of those Israeli Arabs identify with the Palestinians. That's why you'll find them waving the Palestinian flag and calling for the destruction of Israel. Not all, of course, but certainly some. And the last week may have proven that there are a lot more than was previously thought.
However, in legal terms, there's an enormous difference between the two groups.

This is true. It certainly looks like a kind of fifth column by some Israeli Arabs.

 

[Harel13]

I think some folks are simply ignorant of the fact there's actually a difference between the two.

Some are probably ignorant, but I think many are aware of the differences and choose to deviously and deceptively conflate the two.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am aware that house demolition is only done to the homes of non-citizens when family members successfully commit acts of terror. Yet you have evidence that this is done also to the homes of citizens that commit acts of terror?

To justify such action is to continue the hostilities.

I don't know about the taking of land and homes, group punishment, military assaults, etc. Are you sure you're not conflating Israeli Arabs with Palestinians? All these seem to describe certain actions taken against Palestinians.

I don't see a significant difference between the various
kinds of non-Jews.

As for that article, the first 2/3rds are related to Israel's identity as a Jewish state. That was the sole reason Israel was even founded. That identity must be protected somehow. That's why there's a Law of Return (albeit, a defective one) for Jews and not for Arabs. To do otherwise would be like the USA giving citizenship to millions of people who actively oppose democracy. Once they become the majority, they will overturn the democratic nature of the USA, thus, effectively, destroying the USA, ideology-wise. Jewish symbols are likewise important to maintaining the Jewish identity of the country.

If one justifies apartheid, & enforces it brutally, then
the consequences will be violent. It's time to think
outside of that box.
Religion cannot justify violent oppression.

As for the last section:

Government resources, meanwhile, are disproportionately directed to Jews and not to Arabs, one factor in causing the Palestinians of Israel to suffer the lowest living standards in Israeli society by all economic indicators. Human Rights Watch has compiled an extensive study of Israel's policy of "separate, not equal" schools for Palestinian children, finding that "Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools. In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this.​

I admit I'm not knowledgeable enough about the going-ons of Israeli Arab society. I am aware of faults with regards to the relationship of the government offices and the Israeli Arabs. I do not defend that. However, this does not mean that Arabs don't have these rights, which is what we're debating here.

As many as 45 Palestinian villages in Israel, many of which pre-date the founding of the state, are not recognized by the Israeli government, and are not listed on maps and receive no services (water, electricity, sanitation, roads, etc.) from the government. More than 75,000 Palestinians live in these unrecognized villages. Meanwhile, hundreds of new Jewish communities have been established on lands confiscated from Palestinians.
​

Perhaps we should look into why they are not recognized. And what exactly are these "hundreds of new Jewish communities" that "have been established on lands confiscated from Palestinians"? Because it sounds like a reference to Judea and Samaria, a different topic. It seems to me that the article, in this sentence, at least, is conflating Israeli Arabs with non-Israeli Palestinians.

Do you see any solution that would result in peaceful
relations between Israeli Jews & non-Jews?

 

[Rival]

Some are probably ignorant, but I think many are aware of the differences and choose to deviously and deceptively conflate the two.

I'm going to have to start looking for creative new ways to say 'I agree' before it starts sounding meaningless

 

[Revoltingest]

Some are probably ignorant, but I think many are aware of the differences and choose to deviously and deceptively conflate the two.

I plead ignorance rather than deception....or is this claimed
distinction really insignificant, but instead a way to invalidate
other perspectives?

I just heard on the BBC that of the over 100 dead non-Jews
31 were children. It's clear that they're willing to kill people
who are no threat when going after those who pose a threat.
We should not be supporting this.

 

[Harel13]

To justify such action is to continue the hostilities.

Sorry I'm not a pacifist like you are. I believe that Israel has the right to defend itself against its enemies.

I don't see a significant difference between the various
kinds of non-Jews.

Here, I'll put it simply:

Arab Israelis, or Israeli Arabs are people or descendants of people that accepted Israel's offer of citizenship when it was established. Palestinians are people or descendants of people who refused Israel's offer of citizenship when it was established, were convinced by the neighboring Arab countries that Israel will be annihilated in the 1948 War of Independence, fled, and were subsequently unable to return to their homes, seeing as Israel won the war and was no longer willing to hand out citizenship to these people.

tl;dr:
Israeli Arabs - citizens.
Palestinian Arabs - non-citizens.

I hope that clarifies why there's a huge difference between the two.

Unless you're of the opinion that non-USA Mexicans deserve the same unalienable rights as USA Mexicans, for some reason?

If one justifies apartheid, & enforces it brutally, then
the consequences will be violent. It's time to think
outside of that box.

Yes, it is time to think outside the box. What apartheid? Israel's status as a Jewish state? So you deny Israel's right to exist. You should equally deny the Vatican State's right to exist, or any other country with a state religion, or any country with a state ethnicity. Isn't that what the Palestinians want? An ethnic Palestinian state? You should oppose that as well.

Religion cannot justify violent oppression.

Good thing it isn't in this case. The Jewish people are an ethnicity.

Do you see any solution that would result in peaceful
relations between Israeli Jews & non-Jews?

The government should give more funding to Arab programs. Hire educational experts. Figure out why Arab students drop out so much. Clean up crime in Arab areas.

But are you able to admit that you may have been conflating Israel's relationship with its Arab citizens and Israel's relationship with its Arab non-citizen enemies?

 

[Revoltingest]

Sorry I'm not a pacifist like you are. I believe that Israel has the right to defend itself against its enemies.

You mischaracterize me.
I've not opposed the right to self-defense.
I'm a non-aggressionist, ie, I believe in defense, but not conquest.
Remember....I worked on weapon systems as an engineer.
But reasonable defense has limits. Israel steps over the line.

Here, I'll put it simply:

Arab Israelis, or Israeli Arabs are people or descendants of people that accepted Israel's offer of citizenship when it was established. Palestinians are people or descendants of people who refused Israel's offer of citizenship when it was established, were convinced by the neighboring Arab countries that Israel will be annihilated in the 1948 War of Independence, fled, and were subsequently unable to return to their homes, seeing as Israel won the war and was no longer willing to hand out citizenship to these people.

tl;dr:
Israeli Arabs - citizens.
Palestinian Arabs - non-citizens.

I hope that clarifies why there's a huge difference between the two.

Unless you're of the opinion that non-USA Mexicans deserve the same unalienable rights as USA Mexicans, for some reason?


Yes, it is time to think outside the box. What apartheid? Israel's status as a Jewish state? So you deny Israel's right to exist. You should equally deny the Vatican State's right to exist, or any other country with a state religion, or any country with a state ethnicity. Isn't that what the Palestinians want? An ethnic Palestinian state? You should oppose that as well.

Good thing it isn't in this case. The Jewish people are an ethnicity.

The government should give more funding to Arab programs. Hire educational experts. Figure out why Arab students drop out so much. Clean up crime in Arab areas.

But are you able to admit that you may have been conflating Israel's relationship with its Arab citizens and Israel's relationship with its Arab non-citizen enemies?

I've never denied Israel's right to exist.
Such a claim bespeaks a persecution complex.
I just want the 2 (or more) sides to achieve peace.
The path to removing the threat is not oppressing
& brutalizing non-Jews. That just continues the
cycle of hatred, fear, oppression, & violence.

 

[George-ananda]

It seems it can go on indefinitely. It's been going on for the last century or so with no end in sight.

 

[Harel13]

You mischaracterize me.

Sorry, my mistake.

But reasonable defense has limits. Israel steps over the line.

What's the line?

I've never denied Israel's right to exist.
Such a claim bespeaks a persecution complex

For years I've been trying to figure out why people always pull out the "countries can't be founded upon a central religion or ethnicity" when referring to Israel, but ignore the fact that there are a great many countries founded upon these things. Perhaps you could explain this to me?

I just want the 2 (or more) sides to achieve peace.
The path to removing the threat is not oppressing
& brutalizing non-Jews. That just continues the
cycle of hatred, fear, oppression, & violence.

But again, which non-Jews? The citizens of Israel, or the non-citizens? Please don't conflate the two. It's true that these are two hot topics now in Israel, with many Israeli Arabs roaming the streets and wreaking havoc, while at the same time Israel is working to stop Hamas's missiles, but the issues are not the same, and are not dealt with in the same manner.

 

[Lyndon]

You seem unaware that the Palestinians in the occupied territories are not citizens but the Jews living there are, that's Apartheid pure and simple, and you're defending it.

 

[Revoltingest]

What's the line?

No group punishment.
Not killing so many unintended targets, eg, children.
Not torturing people.
There'd be more.

For years I've been trying to figure out why people always pull out the "countries can't be founded upon a central religion or ethnicity" when referring to Israel, but ignore the fact that there are a great many countries founded upon these things. Perhaps you could explain this to me?

Israel is not alone.
We criticize Islamic countries for intolerance towards non-Muslims
& for brutalizing even Muslims who aren't Muslim enuf.
But Israel has massive hypocrisy compared to Pakistan, Afghanistan,
etc...many fans of Israel tell me that Israel has a secular government.

My big problem, aside from the injustices wrought by Israel....
- We send it billions of dollars per year to support this brutal regime.
- Israel has undue influence in our government, creating many
hostile foreign policy problems.
- We were involved in creating a country that took land from the
residents.

This imposes a burden upon us to fix the problem...not exacerbate it.

But again, which non-Jews? The citizens of Israel, or the non-citizens? Please don't conflate the two. It's true that these are two hot topics now in Israel, with many Israeli Arabs roaming the streets and wreaking havoc, while at the same time Israel is working to stop Hamas's missiles, but the issues are not the same, and are not dealt with in the same manner.

The distinction between types of non-Jews is significant how?
If non-citizen non-Jews live there, does that justify oppression?

 

[Harel13]

No group punishment.
Not killing so many unintended targets, eg, children.

Will the enemy stop bringing women and children as human shields? I prefer to protect my own people rather than people who are unfortunately used as human shields by their supposed friends and family.

No group punishment.

Why?

Not torturing people.

I don't know about torture. Is this a thing? If it is, I expect that it's in order to get key information on upcoming terror attacks. The ends don't justify the means in such cases? You would risk the lives of many countrymen against the life of one enemy?

My big problem, aside from the injustices wrought by Israel....
- We send it billions of dollars per year to support this brutal regime.
- Israel has undue influence in our government, creating many
hostile foreign policy problems.
- We were involved in creating a country that took land from the
residents.

I hear this from many, but still wait and wait for the evidence of brutality. Call me ignorant or willfully blind, but as demonstrated on this thread and on similar ones over the last few days, there are many people who willfully or ignorantly conflate different issues in a vile attempt to make Israel seem like something it is not.

The distinction between types of non-Jews is significant how?

It's very significant. There are citizens, who are legal members of the country, and then there are non-citizens, who are enemies of the country and seek to destroy it.

Why do you feel that non-USA Mexicans deserve the same rights as USA-Mexicans?

If non-citizen non-Jews live there, does that justify oppression?

This is a tom-ay-to, tom-ah-to case, i.e., it depends how you view the situation. Do you say: Israel, like any other country in existence, has the right to take actions to diminish external threats to its existence and has no reason to give equal rights to its enemies, or do you say: Israel must be held to a different standard, and it is incumbent upon it that it lets enemies of the country that wish to destroy it roam freely in the country and do nothing to oppose them. Is it oppression or is it Israel wielding its natural right to protect itself?

If the former, explain to me why.
And explain to me why non-USA citizens aren't afforded the same rights as USA citizens, per your logic.

 

[Revoltingest]

Will the enemy stop bringing women and children as human shields? I prefer to protect my own people rather than people who are unfortunately used as human shields by their supposed friends and family.

Israel's disregard for the rights & lives of non-Jews is a
big problem it must overcome if peace is ever to reign.

Why?

Collective punishment is a war crime that inflames
the very people they'd like to see be peaceful.
Fourth Geneva Convention - Wikipedia

I don't know about torture. Is this a thing? If it is, I expect that it's in order to get key information on upcoming terror attacks. The ends don't justify the means in such cases? You would risk the lives of many countrymen against the life of one enemy?

I oppose torture by all governments.
If Israel's values include torture, does
it even deserve to exist?

I hear this from many, but still wait and wait for the evidence of brutality.

It's all over the news. But I suspect that Israel
& sympathizers view it as mere self defense.
I've no evidence to counter that.

It's very significant. There are citizens, who are legal members of the country, and then there are non-citizens, who are enemies of the country and seek to destroy it.

To see all non-citizens as enemies to be killed
isn't going to lead to peace. Jews must begin
treating non-Jews as worthy of the same rights.

Why do you feel that non-USA Mexicans deserve the same rights as USA-Mexicans?

No.
But neither would I approve of military strikes on
their neighborhoods, killing all in the strike zone.

This is a tom-ay-to, tom-ah-to case, i.e., it depends how you view the situation. Do you say: Israel, like any other country in existence, has the right to take actions to diminish external threats to its existence and has no reason to give equal rights to its enemies, or do you say: Israel must be held to a different standard, and it is incumbent upon it that it lets enemies of the country that wish to destroy it roam freely in the country and do nothing to oppose them.

If the latter, explain to me why.

I favor holding Israel to the same standard we want
in our own country. If it can't do that, then we should
cut support, & oppose their regime.

And explain to me why non-USA citizens aren't afforded the same rights as USA citizens, per your logic.

We don't blithely kill them just because they're non-citizens.

 

[pearl]

What does the former president of Egypt have to do with this?

It simply shows the ends the extremists on both sides were/are willing to go in order to prevent any deal that gives an inch to the other.

It has yet to be proven that Yasser Arafat was assassinated, and in any case, it took years before he died, and he turned down offers of two state solutions.

Arafat is long gone, no matter the circumstances. I referred to the former president of Egypt, Anwar Sadat, and Prime Minster of Israel, Yitzhak Rabin. I believe it was called the 'Camp David Accord'. Both were assassinated by their 'own'.

 

[Harel13]

Israel's disregard for the rights & lives of non-Jews is a
big problem it must overcome if peace is ever to reign.

Are you ignoring the enemy's usage of human shields? That seems like a bigger violation of human rights. But what do I know?

I oppose torture by all governments.
If Israel's values include torture, does
it even deserve to exist?

It's not a "value". It might be - again, no evidence for this, as you haven't presented either - used to save the lives of the many. I prefer protecting my fellow citizens at the cost of possibly injuring an enemy, rather than letting the enemy go free and risk the deaths of many of my citizens. What about you? Do you not care about fellow citizens?

It's all over the news. But I suspect that Israel
& sympathizers view it as mere self defense.
I've no evidence to counter that.

Then we'll just have to wait for evidence, I guess.

To see all non-citizens as enemies to be killed

No one said that non-citizens are viewed as enemies "to be killed". But they are enemies in that they do not deserve the same rights as citizens of Israel, and when it is needed, for example, when they launch terror attacks at us, certain actions may be taken against them.

Jews must begin
treating non-Jews as worthy of the same rights.

They do. But for the millionth time, you are conflating non-Jewish citizens with non-Jewish non-citizens. I recommend you stop doing that, because it does nothing to further the topic at hand.

No.
But neither would I approve of military strikes on
their neighborhoods, killing all in the strike zone.

Are you aware that during Operation Protective Edge, Israel did all in its power to warn the civilians of impending attacks? That's a shot in the leg right there, because at the same time, they were warning Hamas as well. I recommend you stop believe the delusional view that Israel is attacking civilians willy-nilly. That's something that really isn't a thing. Are you aware that the people who started this round of missile strikes are none other than Hamas? That's right, not Israel - Hamas.

I'm happy you realize that non-citizens aren't deserving of the same rights as actual citizens.

I favor holding Israel to the same standard we want
in our own country. If it can't do that, then we should
cut support, & oppose their regime.

And what standard is that? May Israel protect itself or not? Must Israel give full citizenship rights to its enemies or not?

We don't blithely kill them just because they're non-citizens.

Neither do we. Boom. Huge shocker, right? The people blasting missiles at civilians are these guys:

The IDF is doing all that is in its power to minimize the deaths of non-Israeli civilians. But Israel will not minimize those so much that Israeli citizens will die instead. And if people in the West believe this is something that must happen, then the West is a truly despicably immoral civilization.

 

[Harel13]

Arafat is long gone, no matter the circumstances. I referred to the former president of Egypt, Anwar Sadat, and Prime Minster of Israel, Yitzhak Rabin. I believe it was called the 'Camp David Accord'. Both were assassinated by their 'own'.

I'm not aware that either was assassinated for the peace treaty. Also, the Israeli PM at the time was Menachem Begin.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The idea of Israel's primarily being a Jewish state seems to me as fundamentally dangerous as theocratic foundations for countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia. It engenders blind nationalism, partisanship, and demonization of those outside of the state's designated identity.

The same equally applies to some Arabs' belief that Palestine--or any other country--should be primarily guided by Islamic teachings in state law and foreign policy. Theocracy needs to die in all of its forms in order for peace to progress.

 

[Revoltingest]

Are you ignoring the enemy's usage of human shields? That seems like a bigger violation of human rights. But what do I know?

I don't ignore it. It is a tactic.
But it appears that Israel uses it as an excuse to inflict
"collateral damage" without regard for innocents.

It's not a "value". It might be - again, no evidence for this, as you haven't presented either - used to save the lives of the many. I prefer protecting my fellow citizens at the cost of possibly injuring an enemy, rather than letting the enemy go free and risk the deaths of many of my citizens. What about you? Do you not care about fellow citizens?

That which a country does shows its values.
Israel accused of torturing Palestinians after fatal bombing
Understanding Israeli Torture: Containing the Ever-Present Threat | global-e journal
Israel legally sanctioned torture of Palestinian detainee
Don't make this about caring about citizens or not.
Torture is a heinous evil. It should be prohibited.
I observe that once accepted, it expands to threats
imagined & not imminent. It happened in our military.

Then we'll just have to wait for evidence, I guess.

No one said that non-citizens are viewed as enemies "to be killed". But they are enemies in that they do not deserve the same rights as citizens of Israel, and when it is needed, for example, when they launch terror attacks at us, certain actions may be taken against them.

Israel's main problem here is in attacking innocents.

They do. But for the millionth time, you are conflating non-Jewish citizens with non-Jewish non-citizens. I recommend you stop doing that, because it does nothing to further the topic at hand.

I don't see the significance of your distinction.
The things I criticize are wrong, regardless of citizenship.

Are you aware that during Operation Protective Edge, Israel did all in its power to warn the civilians of impending attacks? That's a shot in the leg right there, because at the same time, they were warning Hamas as well. I recommend you stop believe the delusional view that Israel is attacking civilians willy-nilly. That's something that really isn't a thing. Are you aware that the people who started this round of missile strikes are none other than Hamas? That's right, not Israel - Hamas.

It was just on the BBC today that Israel has ceased giving
warnings before bombing tunnels where non-Jews took
refuge, thereby killing many innocents.
Am I delusional for believing this news coverage? Nah.

I'm happy you realize that non-citizens aren't deserving of the same rights as actual citizens.

This is not license to kill them recklessly & impunity.

And what standard is that? May Israel protect itself or not? Must Israel give full citizenship rights to its enemies or not?

Of course Israel can defend itself.
But I favor doing that with more concern for innocents,
& avoiding behaving in a manner so egregious that it
inspires more conflict.
Note also that Israel discriminates against non-Jews
in granting citizenship.

Neither do we. Boom. Huge shocker, right? The people blasting missiles at civilians are these guys:

The IDF is doing all that is in its power to minimize the deaths of non-Israeli civilians. But Israel will not minimize those so much that Israeli citizens will die instead. And if people in the West believe this is something that must happen, then the West is a truly despicably immoral civilization.

They're doing a poor job of defending themselves
given the result of continuing hostility. This extends
to foreign policy, eg, urging Ameristan to start a war
with Iran.
Israel's behavior & control in my country is causing
much trouble at great cost to us. It never should've
been created out of land taken from others, but now
that it's here, we should find a path to peace.

 

[Lyndon]

Are you ignoring the enemy's usage of human shields? That seems like a bigger violation of human rights. But what do I know?

It's not a "value". It might be - again, no evidence for this, as you haven't presented either - used to save the lives of the many. I prefer protecting my fellow citizens at the cost of possibly injuring an enemy, rather than letting the enemy go free and risk the deaths of many of my citizens. What about you? Do you not care about fellow citizens?

Then we'll just have to wait for evidence, I guess.

No one said that non-citizens are viewed as enemies "to be killed". But they are enemies in that they do not deserve the same rights as citizens of Israel, and when it is needed, for example, when they launch terror attacks at us, certain actions may be taken against them.

They do. But for the millionth time, you are conflating non-Jewish citizens with non-Jewish non-citizens. I recommend you stop doing that, because it does nothing to further the topic at hand.

Are you aware that during Operation Protective Edge, Israel did all in its power to warn the civilians of impending attacks? That's a shot in the leg right there, because at the same time, they were warning Hamas as well. I recommend you stop believe the delusional view that Israel is attacking civilians willy-nilly. That's something that really isn't a thing. Are you aware that the people who started this round of missile strikes are none other than Hamas? That's right, not Israel - Hamas.

I'm happy you realize that non-citizens aren't deserving of the same rights as actual citizens.


And what standard is that? May Israel protect itself or not? Must Israel give full citizenship rights to its enemies or not?

Neither do we. Boom. Huge shocker, right? The people blasting missiles at civilians are these guys:

The IDF is doing all that is in its power to minimize the deaths of non-Israeli civilians. But Israel will not minimize those so much that Israeli citizens will die instead. And if people in the West believe this is something that must happen, then the West is a truly despicably immoral civilization.

You keep absurdly referring to Palestinians as the enemy, along with a lot of Israeli Jews, we see the extreme right government and military of Israel as the enemy, they kill and injure way more people, deny human right to way more people, and are all around neo fascists in general policy.