Israel: Scuffles at Western Wall as hundreds of Haredim try to block progressive prayer

[danieldemol]

'Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox Jews gathered at the Western Wall in Jerusalem to protest against a Jewish women’s group that holds monthly prayers there in a long-running campaign for gender equality at the site, with minor scuffles and one person arrested.

For decades the “Women of the Wall” group has campaigned for equality of worship at the wall, one of Judaism’s holiest sites. Israel’s religious institutions are dominated by the ultra-Orthodox, who are opposed to any changes at the site, where men and women pray in separate areas...

...Women of the Wall leader Anat Hoffman was at one point removed from the Western Wall plaza after attempting to bring in a small Torah scroll.'

ETA source: Scuffles at Western Wall as hundreds of Haredim try to block progressive prayer

What is the big deal over a woman possessing a sacred text at a sacred site in UO Judaism? I don't get it.

In my opinion.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's religion.
You expect it to make sense?

 

[AlexanderG]

It's religion.
You expect it to make sense?

People who think that they are strong (but are weak and afraid) will push down other people around them, to feel bigger themselves.

People who are strong in truth will lift everyone else up around them, because they can do it and the others cannot.

In my experience, a core value of all the Abrahamic religions is pushing everyone else down to let oneself feel bigger. After all, the practice seems to start at the top with god. And then, like a chain of bullying, the men do it to women according to the rules conveniently found in the scripture, which also conveniently instruct women to be sexually compliant as well.

 

[sun rise]

What is the big deal over a woman possessing a sacred text at a sacred site in UO Judaism? I don't get it.

This attitude toward women is no different in kind from what used to be the norm in Christianity and is still the norm in places like Afghanistan. Kinder, Küche, Kirche - Wikipedia

 

[Twilight Hue]

'Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox Jews gathered at the Western Wall in Jerusalem to protest against a Jewish women’s group that holds monthly prayers there in a long-running campaign for gender equality at the site, with minor scuffles and one person arrested.

For decades the “Women of the Wall” group has campaigned for equality of worship at the wall, one of Judaism’s holiest sites. Israel’s religious institutions are dominated by the ultra-Orthodox, who are opposed to any changes at the site, where men and women pray in separate areas...

...Women of the Wall leader Anat Hoffman was at one point removed from the Western Wall plaza after attempting to bring in a small Torah scroll.'

ETA source: Scuffles at Western Wall as hundreds of Haredim try to block progressive prayer

What is the big deal over a woman possessing a sacred text at a sacred site in UO Judaism? I don't get it.

In my opinion.

Abrahamics. Thems some funny people.

 

[Estro Felino]

Abrahamics. Thems some funny people.

The Church of England and other churches allow female priesthood. Not all Abrahamics.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The Church of England and other churches allow female priesthood. Not all Abrahamics.

True. It's more on how people go crazy over their beliefs to a point they must physically intervene on others.

 

[RestlessSoul]

People who think that they are strong (but are weak and afraid) will push down other people around them, to feel bigger themselves.

People who are strong in truth will lift everyone else up around them, because they can do it and the others cannot.

In my experience, a core value of all the Abrahamic religions is pushing everyone else down to let oneself feel bigger. After all, the practice seems to start at the top with god. And then, like a chain of bullying, the men do it to women according to the rules conveniently found in the scripture, which also conveniently instruct women to be sexually compliant as well.

These problems arise when anyone claims to have a monopoly on truth, and impose their version of it on others.

I would be wary of anyone claiming to be “strong in truth”. Such a lack of humility should be enough to set alarm bells ringing.

 

[ChristineM]

Woman in many reliions are treated as second class or property. It really is time for change

 

[Revoltingest]

P
In my experience, a core value of all the Abrahamic religions is pushing everyone else down to let oneself feel bigger.

I'm fortunate to know believers whose personality
was such that they never embraced that message.
Apostates? If so, then that's a pretty good sin.

 

[Harel13]

What is the big deal over a woman possessing a sacred text at a sacred site in UO Judaism? I don't get it.

There are number of issues, but as this thread has already become a pile-on on Orthodox Judaism before any Jewish member has had a chance to reply, I will not get into the fine details here. I'll simply note that in my opinion, the "Women of the Wall"'s biggest mistake is that they're grandstanding. They're attention-grabbers. And grandstanding worship is not something that many Orthodox people like.
Also, these women identify as Reform. I sometimes wonder whether they actually see any worth in the Western Wall as what it really is: The "waiting room" of the Temple Mount; no more holier than your average synagogue. Do they really want a Temple built? Not really sure about that.

 

[JustGeorge]

There are number of issues, but as this thread has already become a pile-on on Orthodox Judaism before any Jewish member has had a chance to reply, I will not get into the fine details here. I'll simply note that in my opinion, the "Women of the Wall"'s biggest mistake is that they're grandstanding. They're attention-grabbers. And grandstanding worship is not something that many Orthodox people like.
Also, these women identify as Reform. I sometimes wonder whether they actually see any worth in the Western Wall as what it really is: The "waiting room" of the Temple Mount; no more holier than your average synagogue. Do they really want a Temple built? Not really sure about that.

I don't know very much about the issue, and I'd love to hear from an Orthodox Jew on the matter, so...

What is the issue with the scrolls being in the women's section? If there was no grandstanding about it, would the request for the scrolls in the women's area be granted? Why does it matter that they're Reform?

(Not trying to be challenging, merely curious.)

 

[rosends]

There are different sections of the wall, a men's section, a women's section and a mixed section. This developed as the wall has been administered as a type of orthodox synagogue which requires gender separation (among other things). There is a section set aside for egalitarian prayer but if you have ever visited, you know that it is usually almost empty. But once a month, this group decides to make its public show of demanding that the orthodox sections change to accommodate their position.

There is another group of women who don't agree with the things that this group does.

 

[danieldemol]

There are different sections of the wall, a men's section, a women's section and a mixed section. This developed as the wall has been administered as a type of orthodox synagogue which requires gender separation (among other things). There is a section set aside for egalitarian prayer but if you have ever visited, you know that it is usually almost empty. But once a month, this group decides to make its public show of demanding that the orthodox sections change to accommodate their position.

There is another group of women who don't agree with the things that this group does.

Your link appears to be a blog post with a mostly orthodox echo chamber.

I googled mixed prayer space at the wall in Jerusalem and got this article from the Jerusalem Post;

Haredi protesters clash with police during Women of the Wall services

In it, 'Director of the Masorti Movement in Israel Rakefet Ginsburg called for the immediate implementation of the Kotel agreement, which Netanyahu originally backed, which would create a state-recognized egalitarian prayer section at the southern end of the Western Wall.'

The impression that I get from the article is that this egalitarian prayer space does not yet exist at the Western wall.

Is that a correct reading of the article?

In my opinion.

 

[rosends]

Your link appears to be a blog post with a mostly orthodox echo chamber.

I googled mixed prayer space at the wall in Jerusalem and got this article from the Jerusalem Post;

Haredi protesters clash with police during Women of the Wall services

In it, 'Director of the Masorti Movement in Israel Rakefet Ginsburg called for the immediate implementation of the Kotel agreement, which Netanyahu originally backed, which would create a state-recognized egalitarian prayer section at the southern end of the Western Wall.'

The impression that I get from the article is that this egalitarian prayer space does not yet exist at the Western wall.

Is that a correct reading of the article?

In my opinion.

First, the link is to a particular group's site. Calling it a "blog post" ignores that it is the About Us section on a website of an organization.
Women for the Wall - Wikipedia.

Second, there is already a mixed prayer site at Robinson's arch. The plan you are discussing involves moving that site and changing the access points to it.

Check the date on this article 3 maps that explain the Western Wall compromise - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

 

[danieldemol]

First, the link is to a particular group's site. Calling it a "blog post" ignores that it is the About Us section on a website of an organization.
Women for the Wall - Wikipedia.

Second, there is already a mixed prayer site at Robinson's arch. The plan you are discussing involves moving that site and changing the access points to it.

Check the date on this article 3 maps that explain the Western Wall compromise - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

Thanks,

Can you please take the time to comment on the final paragraph in the Wikipedia article provided;

'In response to the creation of Women for the Wall, a spokesman for Women of the Wall said, "WoW works 100 percent in the framework of Jewish law. We are not violating the Torah, and this is not a halachic issue, which numerous prominent rabbis have agreed with. The Western Wall is not an ultra-Orthodox synagogue, it’s a public place – a very important, historic, holy place – but first and foremost, it’s public."[6]'

Thanks in advance.

 

[rosends]

Thanks,

Can you please take the time to comment on the final paragraph in the Wikipedia article provided;

'In response to the creation of Women for the Wall, a spokesman for Women of the Wall said, "WoW works 100 percent in the framework of Jewish law. We are not violating the Torah, and this is not a halachic issue, which numerous prominent rabbis have agreed with. The Western Wall is not an ultra-Orthodox synagogue, it’s a public place – a very important, historic, holy place – but first and foremost, it’s public."[6]'

Thanks in advance.

In brief, they are wrong. The wall is administered by the government as an orthodox (nothing ultra about it) space. It has been for a while.

 

[danieldemol]

In brief, they are wrong. The wall is administered by the government as an orthodox (nothing ultra about it) space. It has been for a while.

Ok, but presumably something set forth by a secular government could be retracted by a secular government, so are you saying they are wrong about egalitarian prayer at the Western wall not being against Jewish law?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Ok, but presumably something set forth by a secular government could be retracted by a secular government, so are you saying they are wrong about egalitarian prayer at the Western wall not being against Jewish law?

It actually goes quite a bit deeper than that. How much time do you have on your hands? (Joke)

So, let me make a few comments that may help you see this a bit better.

There is going to be some hesitation from Jews, on a forum like this, to fully answer your question. The reason is that in order to real way to answer it would be to establish a couple of things first.

1. How old are modern Jewish movements and what is the origin of each one? By extention, why did each one start?
2. Which Jewish movements can be represented in the Jewish world a) prior to 500 years ago, prior to 1,000 years ago, c) to the origin of the Jewish people?
3. What is the purpose of prayer in the most ancient "Jewish" concepts?
4. What is the Western Wall and what purpose does it serve?
5. Is the Western Wall an ultimate goal in any form of Judaism? If so, goal towards what?

I once posted a couple of videos with some of these issues that are really at the core of this issue and your question.

I did a video touching on this issue. It may help as a start. (I apologize ahead of time about the sound quality in some parts of the video.)

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Ok, but presumably something set forth by a secular government could be retracted by a secular government

So, after posted what I did above I present the following to your question here. Let's take this to its most extreme. Let's consider what would happen if the secular Israeli government decided to not take any side of this issue and just ban all Jews from the Western Wall, what would happen?

If the government had the power to stop any Jew from going there there would be a bit of a scuffle, at first, but if the government were to have the power to succeed Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews would continue business as usual as has been done previously when Jews were forbidden from going to the Western Wall; for example as it was during the time of the Byzantines.

Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews would look at the long game and simply surive the situation until it changes. I.e. If in 1,000 years the situation stays the same Torth Mosheh Jews/Orthodox Jews would simply wait it out and survive it until the situation changes. The reason is because for Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews the end game is not the Western Wall - the end game is a Torah based nation keeping the Torah as it was done during the time of Yehoshua bin-Nun (In English you call him Joshua) and during the height of Shlomo HaMelekh's (in English you call him Solomon) reign, a return of a Torah based government, a return of all Jews to the land of Israel, and irrifutable proof that the Source of Creation supports all of the above.

Since we have history of several thousand years of Torath Mosheh Jews surviving the type of extreme I mentioned before we know how that works with Torath Mosheh Jews.

The questions now becomes, "What would be the response of the Women of the Wall group to such a situation? What is the end game of groups like Women of the Wall?"

so are you saying they are wrong about egalitarian prayer at the Western wall not being against Jewish law?

This is also a bit of a deeper issue. The question you have to ask both sides is, "What is the Western wall, why pray there at all, and how was the area managed during the time when there was a Torah based Israeli government there?"

The other question you would have to ask is, "If all Torath Mosheh, Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox Jews stopped praying at the Western Wall and went to another location and waited things out would the Women of the Wall pray/manage in the areas where Torath Mosheh, Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox Jews used to pray?" Thus, there are a lot politics on this issue that have nothing to do with the Torah and what it says, or what the intent was/is from the one that gave it.