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Israel: Scuffles at Western Wall as hundreds of Haredim try to block progressive prayer

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I have long been against discrimination against different races, nationalities, religions & religious groups, and women. If that's a fault I have, I embrace it.

However, I obviously recognize that I am just one person living in my own little area of the world, so I'm not the "final answer" on this-- but I do have opinions and I believe the right to express them. If that's a "sin", so be it.
I'm sorry, I'm not following. I can tell you think that the Orthodox are being discriminatory. As I hinted at, in a certain sense, these women are being equally discriminatory, if not worse. It's interesting that from my knowledge, more people prefer to keep the Wall as-is and not turn it liberal. So what we have here is a very loud minority. But not only is it a loud minority, it's a minority going against the will of the majority. Seems to be an inter-democratic clash of interests.
No one is stopping you from praying at the Wall, and slams against another branch is so utterly pathetic. Jews historically suffered much disrimination, and yet we see all so many on the right who simply have no respect for other Jews whom also believe in haShem. What a shame and what a sham, imo.
I don't know what the sham is. I disagree with your notion of freedom of worshiping God however one wishes. Moreover, if there's any group whose worship is a sham, it seems to be this group of women. Did you see what they have written on their site? It's utterly meaningless in Jewish terms. "We don't want a Temple, we don't care about a Temple, but hey, this remnant here, which historically has only been important because it was thought to be the last remnant and a symbol of the Jewish expectations of the Temple, this we'll turn into some kind of shrine". Seriously, what am I missing here?
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
What a fun thread.

The "Women of the Wall", which is a small fringe minority of women who go to the wall, first belonged to the groups which wanted an egalitarian prayer area.
Meaning a prayer area where men and women pray next to each other.

This they ultimately got.
An egalitarian praying area and a traditional praying area.


So that's it? Victory! Habemus Papam!

No.


The "Women of the Wall" then changed their goal. Suddenly it was about allowing non-traditional prayers at the traditional praying area.
Unsurprisingly this doesn't go over too well within Israel. Which is why their only support comes from US Reform and Conservative groups.

So let's take a look at Israeli Jews.

Hilonim: Essentially secular Jews and the majority of the country. At the same time they have no stake in the matter as they do not care about the Western Wall.

And then there are three other groups.
Haredim: "Ultra-Orthodox" Jews
Datim: Generally Orthodox Jews
Masortim: Traditional Jews

All of these three groups use the main area.


So wait for whom is the egalitarian area?
There exists a very small Reform/Conservative Jewish population in Israel.
It caters to them and Jewish US tourists.
That's it.
Due to this the egalitarian area is also far less used.

WotW likes to present itself as the voice of Israeli Jewish women, well they aren't.
There are numerous videos of Israeli women praying in their section of the praying area. No problems whatsoever.


I don't know what the sham is. I disagree with your notion of freedom of worshiping God however one wishes. Moreover, if there's any group whose worship is a sham, it seems to be this group of women. Did you see what they have written on their site? It's utterly meaningless in Jewish terms. "We don't want a Temple, we don't care about a Temple, but hey, this remnant here, which historically has only been important because it was thought to be the last remnant and a symbol of the Jewish expectations of the Temple, this we'll turn into some kind of shrine". Seriously, what am I missing here?

This is true for all the Reform/Conservative activism in Israel.
It makes no sense.
One of the points of Reform was to do away with the importance of Israel.
Which is why their synagogues are often called "Temple".
But suddenly they care about the Temple again? Oh wait not the Temple but this retaining wall of the western side... okay?
It also can't be any area of the western wall of the plateau. It has to be the one where the main praying area is.
Right.

Why not the southern wall? Okay that's right next to the Al-Aqsa mosque. So perhaps the eastern wall? Or the northern?
All of that still exists and is just a retaining wall of the plateau as the western.
Yet they don't want that.
To quote my SIL: They want our ****.


Added to that Reform/Conservative Judaism make no sense in a Jewish majority country.
Back to the Hamburg Temple disputes it was about being less Jewish, do away with Jewish rules and become more and more assimilated. There's a reason why lot's of German Jews murdered in Shoah had names like "Wilhelm", "Frieda" etc. while the Eastern Jews didn't.
You don't have to do that in a Jewish majority country.
 

Azrael Antilla

Active Member
'Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox Jews gathered at the Western Wall in Jerusalem to protest against a Jewish women’s group that holds monthly prayers there in a long-running campaign for gender equality at the site, with minor scuffles and one person arrested.

For decades the “Women of the Wall” group has campaigned for equality of worship at the wall, one of Judaism’s holiest sites. Israel’s religious institutions are dominated by the ultra-Orthodox, who are opposed to any changes at the site, where men and women pray in separate areas...

...Women of the Wall leader Anat Hoffman was at one point removed from the Western Wall plaza after attempting to bring in a small Torah scroll.'

ETA source: Scuffles at Western Wall as hundreds of Haredim try to block progressive prayer

What is the big deal over a woman possessing a sacred text at a sacred site in UO Judaism? I don't get it.

In my opinion.
Conservatives, always obsesing over irrelevant matters of no importance.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Conservatives, always obsesing over irrelevant matters of no importance.
Personally if I were a Jew I would simply pray in the egalitarian prayer space and let the orthodox do their own thing, but I guess the women of the wall see it as discrimination to have a public space controlled by the orthodoxy.

It would have been interesting to have a member of the women of the wall speak up in defence of their aims but so far no luck apparently.

In my opinion.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Personally if I were a Jew I would simply pray in the egalitarian prayer space and let the orthodox do their own thing, but I guess the women of the wall see it as discrimination to have a public space controlled by the orthodoxy.

It would have been interesting to have a member of the women of the wall speak up in defence of their aims but so far no luck apparently.

In my opinion.

Greetings,

You can find their aims, and their side of things, here at their web-site.

Women of the Wall - the Modern-Day Western Wall Liberators | Women of the Wall
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
It would have been interesting to have a member of the women of the wall speak up in defence of their aims but so far no luck apparently.
I was skimming some old threads last night and it seems there used to be a WotW member here (her profile pic was their logo). Hasn't been here in years, though.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Women of the Wall - the Modern-Day Western Wall Liberators | Women of the Wall
I really don't know how believable their page is. In one section on the Hebrew site they write:
"ארגון נשות הכותל נוסד ב-9 בדצמבר 1988, א’ בראש חודש טבת תשמ”ט, על-ידי קבוצה של 70 נשים יהודיות, ביניהן היו”ר (מאז ועד היום) ענת הופמן, שביקשה לקיים תפילת נשים הלכתית – אורתודוקסית בראש חודש בכותל המערבי."

Which translates as "The Women of the Wall organization was founded on December 9th 1988, 1st of the head of the month Tevet 5749, by a group of Jewish women, among them the chairman (to this day) Anat Hoffman, who wished to organize a halachically-Orthodox women's prayer on Rosh Chodesh [1st day of the Hebrew month] by the Western Wall."

Anat Hoffman, to my knowledge, has never been Orthodox. See here, for example. So I don't see why she would have wanted to "organize a halachically-Orthodox women's prayer".
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I read through various parts of their site and as I mentioned before, one can always find a grain of truth or merit to something. Yet, I found the following statements made on their site to be problematic. Also, when I looked at their Board's and Staff's background I found a lot of things that would make me back far away from them and what it is they are pushing. Here are my findings below.

upload_2021-11-14_10-15-38.png


Yet, Mosheh Rabbeinu warned in Devarim:

upload_2021-11-14_10-19-4.png
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I also found the following statements from their web-site very problematic and also how the sources they claim don't state what they are claiming or support what they are talking about.

upload_2021-11-14_10-31-23.png
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Concerning the above.

[1] It is actually a misrepresentation of the the Torah is against. For example, they state that all Jewish denominations observe the prohibition of nor worshipping idols. This is actually not true because in halakha an idol isn't only something that is made of material. Also, a large part of the western world doesn't worship idols. Further, the Rambam makes it clear below what is the real issue with halakha that works against what they have written.

upload_2021-11-14_11-27-24.png


[2] The entire Temple area, and even the Torah based nation, was never up to various interpretations of halakha, especially not at the level of what finds in non Torath Mosheh based denominations. In fact, according to halakha the Kohen HaGadol was checked before Yom Kippur to make sure he wasn't holding by "deniminational" concepts as the Rambam points out below.

Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Avodath Yom HaKippurim
upload_2021-11-14_11-38-40.png


[3] I find this one to be a huge issue. First Yoma 9b does not state that when the Jewish are not united there is disaster. Instead it states:

upload_2021-11-14_11-41-2.png


and Sinat Hinam is defined as:

upload_2021-11-14_11-41-18.png

upload_2021-11-14_11-41-34.png

upload_2021-11-14_11-41-46.png

Lastly, on this point. There are numerous areas in the Tanakh that warn against Jews uniting with other Jews who have taken a firm incorrect turn "halakhically." The rebellion of Qorah and his group was one, where the Am who were not with him were warned to move away from him and his group. (To the point where Qorah's own sons moved away.) Also, there was the time when Yehoshaphat king of Yehudah decided to make a connection with Ahhav king of Yisrael, and also when the Hellonist tried to convert Am Yisrael into Hellonism. In all of these cases uniting was not an option because of where the other side was going and uniting with them would spell disaster.
 
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Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Seeing a subset of highly conservative (lowercase C) Jews aggressively defend rigid and sometimes violent traditionalism--whether in this case or in general, especially concerning Israel's illegal settlements and killing of civilians--strongly reminds me of conservative Islam and its largely detrimental effects on modern-day Middle Eastern societies.

I highly doubt there will be peace in the Middle East until both Jewish and Islamic conservatism are either strictly separated from politics or secularized to the point of letting go of their current rigid emphasis on tradition even in cases where upholding it requires forgoing both reason and respect for others' rights.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
What a fun thread.

The "Women of the Wall", which is a small fringe minority of women who go to the wall, first belonged to the groups which wanted an egalitarian prayer area.
Meaning a prayer area where men and women pray next to each other.

This they ultimately got.
An egalitarian praying area and a traditional praying area.


So that's it? Victory! Habemus Papam!

No.


The "Women of the Wall" then changed their goal. Suddenly it was about allowing non-traditional prayers at the traditional praying area.
Unsurprisingly this doesn't go over too well within Israel. Which is why their only support comes from US Reform and Conservative groups.

So let's take a look at Israeli Jews.

Hilonim: Essentially secular Jews and the majority of the country. At the same time they have no stake in the matter as they do not care about the Western Wall.

And then there are three other groups.
Haredim: "Ultra-Orthodox" Jews
Datim: Generally Orthodox Jews
Masortim: Traditional Jews

All of these three groups use the main area.


So wait for whom is the egalitarian area?
There exists a very small Reform/Conservative Jewish population in Israel.
It caters to them and Jewish US tourists.
That's it.
Due to this the egalitarian area is also far less used.

WotW likes to present itself as the voice of Israeli Jewish women, well they aren't.
There are numerous videos of Israeli women praying in their section of the praying area. No problems whatsoever.




This is true for all the Reform/Conservative activism in Israel.
It makes no sense.
One of the points of Reform was to do away with the importance of Israel.
Which is why their synagogues are often called "Temple".
But suddenly they care about the Temple again? Oh wait not the Temple but this retaining wall of the western side... okay?
It also can't be any area of the western wall of the plateau. It has to be the one where the main praying area is.
Right.

Why not the southern wall? Okay that's right next to the Al-Aqsa mosque. So perhaps the eastern wall? Or the northern?
All of that still exists and is just a retaining wall of the plateau as the western.
Yet they don't want that.
To quote my SIL: They want our ****.


Added to that Reform/Conservative Judaism make no sense in a Jewish majority country.
Back to the Hamburg Temple disputes it was about being less Jewish, do away with Jewish rules and become more and more assimilated. There's a reason why lot's of German Jews murdered in Shoah had names like "Wilhelm", "Frieda" etc. while the Eastern Jews didn't.
You don't have to do that in a Jewish majority country.
I have been reading many of the posts on this thread, but now have a question. Because so far to me, it's like almost a political fight in terms of who gets what re: privileges. Women invoking the same rights as men. Although today there were many orthodox Jews walking in my neighborhood (it's Saturday) with their families, men, women and children, and the women were dressed commendably kosher -- modestly. But the question (or point) is, weren't there Jewish factions raging in the first century CE before the temple was virtually razed by the Romans?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Concerning the above.

[1] It is actually a misrepresentation of the the Torah is against. For example, they state that all Jewish denominations observe the prohibition of nor worshipping idols. This is actually not true because in halakha an idol isn't only something that is made of material. Also, a large part of the western world doesn't worship idols. Further, the Rambam makes it clear below what is the real issue with halakha that works against what they have written.

View attachment 57519

[2] The entire Temple area, and even the Torah based nation, was never up to various interpretations of halakha, especially not at the level of what finds in non Torath Mosheh based denominations. In fact, according to halakha the Kohen HaGadol was checked before Yom Kippur to make sure he wasn't holding by "deniminational" concepts as the Rambam points out below.

Mishnah Torah - Hilchoth Avodath Yom HaKippurim
View attachment 57520

[3] I find this one to be a huge issue. First Yoma 9b does not state that when the Jewish are not united there is disaster. Instead it states:

View attachment 57521

and Sinat Hinam is defined as:

View attachment 57522
View attachment 57523
View attachment 57524
Lastly, on this point. There are numerous areas in the Tanakh that warn against Jews uniting with other Jews who have taken a firm incorrect turn "halakhically." The rebellion of Qorah and his group was one, where the Am who were not with him were warned to move away from him and his group. (To the point where Qorah's own sons moved away.) Also, there was the time when Yehoshaphat king of Yehudah decided to make a connection with Ahhav king of Yisrael, and also when the Hellonist tried to convert Am Yisrael into Hellonism. In all of these cases uniting was not an option because of where the other side was going and uniting with them would spell disaster.
God made the decision about Moses vs. Korah. (Sorry about spelling and difference of language.) True, I was also thinking of the golden calf. Disastrous. How quick people can be to take sides.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
I have been reading many of the posts on this thread, but now have a question. Because so far to me, it's like almost a political fight in terms of who gets what re: privileges. Women invoking the same rights as men. Although today there were many orthodox Jews walking in my neighborhood (it's Saturday) with their families, men, women and children, and the women were dressed commendably kosher -- modestly. But the question (or point) is, weren't there Jewish factions raging in the first century CE before the temple was virtually razed by the Romans?

Yes why?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There have been scuffles for a long time. Before and after worship at the temple in Jerusalem.
But then it certainly hasn't been scuffles among only Jews, or persecution of Jews. That's bad enough. But then it was members of same group (Catholics or Protestants) killing members of the same group when times got bad (like in war). Or torturing one another (such as the Crusades and Inquisition). So how do you see the destruction of the Temple in the 1st century? Just a side effect of something that happened?
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
I don't see how internal infighting is special in any way.
Happened back then, happens today all over the world.
Different groups have different goals and if they collide things can escalate.
 
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