Israel: Ethnic Cleansing or Genocide.

[exchemist]

I realise I am grabbing the 3rd rail with this thread, but I feel I cannot stay silent any longer. The attached news report makes truly shocking reading: Israel is deliberately starving Palestinians, UN rights expert says

Not only is the Israeli government and army denying food supplies to the people they have displaced. They have also destroyed fishing vessels, orchards, olive trees and greenhouses, for no good reason. Children are suffering extreme malnutrition, at a level that will stunt their growth and ruin their lives.

Most of Gaza has been reduced to rubble and almost the entire population of 2 million people, herded, like cattle, up against the Egyptian border in the South, at Rafah. And now the Israeli army is about to destroy Rafah, too. Just last night, a government spokesman said in a BBC radio interview Israel has a plan to move 1.4 million people from the Rafah area to locations he was not willing to disclose. He did not deny the suggestion that they may be transferred across the border to Sinai. Once there, if that is indeed the intended location, I am sure they will make it very difficult for any of them to come back.

This Israeli government seem to be embarked on a Final Solution. I do not use those words lightly. It is disgusting beyond words that Israel, of all nations on Earth, should be doing this. They should to be arraigned before the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Also relevant here:

Egypt building walled enclosure in Sinai for Rafah refugees, photos suggest

Monitoring group releases evidence of work that appears intended to house Palestinians in event of Israeli assault on city

www.theguardian.com

Cabinet members call to resettle Gaza, encourage Gazans to leave, at jubilant conference

11 ministers, 15 coalition MKs present amid dancing at right-wing confab attended by thousands; Likud minister appears to endorse coercive measures to promote Palestinian emigration

www.timesofisrael.com

Israeli ministers join ultranationalist conference urging Gaza resettlement

Multiple Israeli officials have made it clear that they wish to "resettle" Gaza. Against the backdrop of widespread bombardment, mass killing of civilians, and destruction of the majority of residential areas in the strip, I believe there is a clear and strong case that said officials are indeed planning to conduct an ethnic cleansing of Gazans to make room for Israeli settlements.

What I have read about public sentiments in many Western countries seems to indicate growing and increasingly vocal criticism of Israel's illegal occupation and abuses, so I really hope this puts pressure on more governments to take serious action against Israel. I'm not sure why the UK government or at least Labour leadership hasn't publicly criticized the IDF's actions yet given that public sentiment in the UK, according to some surveys (like the one cited below), seems increasingly critical of Israel.

New data shared with TIME from the business intelligence company Morning Consult shows that support for Israel around the world has dropped significantly since the war in Gaza began.

Net favorability—the percentage of people viewing Israel positively after subtracting the percentage viewing it negatively—dropped globally by an average of 18.5 percentage points between September and December, decreasing in 42 out of the 43 countries polled.

China, South Africa, Brazil, and several other countries in Latin America all went from viewing Israel positively to negatively. And many rich countries that already had net negative views of Israel—including Japan, South Korea, and the U.K.—saw steep declines. Net favorability in Japan went from -39.9 to -62.0; in South Korea from-5.5 to -47.8; and in the U.K. from -17.1 to -29.8.

New Polling Shows How Much Global Support Israel Has Lost

Research from Morning Consult shows that favorable views of Israel have declined in 42 of 43 countries polled since the war in Gaza began.

time.com

 

[dybmh]

@exchemist ,

I appreciate the concern, however, the UN and the Guardian are not giving a complete picture. This is a picture taken on Feb 25th in central Gaza:

Here is a picture of the humanitarian aid, in the majority food, waiting for the UN to distribute it. Israel has been working to stay ahead of the aid distribution team so that they are never waiting for supplies.

It's a very busy day for me. I'm sorry that I don't have more time to go into detail, but, essentially what's happening right now is: HAMAS has lost the war, they announced yesterday they will be folding themselves into the PLO. UNRWA is being deconstructed and will either collapse or will be reduced to a shadow of its former influence in Palestine. There is a US congressional hearing scheduled in March which is likely to be the nail in the coffin. The enemies of israel are going to do a great deal in these final weeks to shift the public opinion against it. Propaganda is the only weapon they have. The claim of deliberate starvation is not true. The UN is trying to avoid its culpability and distract from its own complicity. The Guardian, in general, is written by enemies of israel.

The food is there. Waiting. Waiting for the UN to distribute it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I realise I am grabbing the 3rd rail with this thread, but I feel I cannot stay silent any longer. The attached news report makes truly shocking reading: Israel is deliberately starving Palestinians, UN rights expert says

It is, indeed shocking, as is irresponsibly tossing around terms like ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

[Balthazzar]

Question: If refugees are expected, and apparently, they are given the relocation announcement of the effort, is genocide or ethnic cleansing even remotely relevant terms to utilize as a descriptor? They seem more inflammatory and misleading in my opinion. It's no doubt a horrible situation and there is no doubt people are suffering. The strip is a mess and Hamas an organization. The Palestinian people don't represent Hamas do they? They represent Palestine. I would be more empathetic with more accurate sympathizers and language. Humanitarian aid is needed. It has been an ongoing effort to provide it. It's a war zone and that sucks, but that's what it is. I've never imagined war to be anything remotely desirable or pleasant, but rather something to fear. It's a fearful thing.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Question: If refugees are expected, and apparently, they are given the relocation announcement of the effort, is genocide or ethnic cleansing even remotely relevant terms to utilize as a descriptor?

It can be. Forced relocation of ethnic groups is covered under the UN definition of ethnic cleansing, and can arguably be considered at the very least a component of their definition of genocide:

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

www.un.org

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

www.un.org

Personally, I wish there were much less admonishment and hand-wringing about the terms we use to describe these events, and much more simple acknowledgement of the moral weight of the events themselves.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The food is there. Waiting. Waiting for the UN to distribute it.

From the Guardian:

UNRWA has not been granted permits by the Israeli authorities to deliver aid to northern Gaza for more than a month, while humanitarian organisations have increasingly despaired at the tiny trickle of aid permitted into Gaza.​

​

The agency has also warned that it could be forced to cease operations across the Middle East in the coming weeks amid a funding crisis, while Israeli politicians including the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, have demanded that UNRWA cease operations and that other UN agencies assume the same work. [source]​

 

[dybmh]

Cabinet members call to resettle Gaza, encourage Gazans to leave, at jubilant conference

11 ministers, 15 coalition MKs present amid dancing at right-wing confab attended by thousands; Likud minister appears to endorse coercive measures to promote Palestinian emigration

www.timesofisrael.com

I think it would be good to apply some rational thought to the content you are posting. In the article above, the headline makes it SEEM as if the israeli government is admitting to the anti-israel talking point: "it's all about stealing the Gazan's land". The headline certainly makes it seem that is the case. However, the article begins:

"In front of an impassioned audience of thousands of right-wing activists, 11 government ministers and 15 coalition lawmakers pledged Sunday night to rebuild Jewish Israeli settlements in the heart of the Gaza Strip, with some also encouraging the emigration of the Palestinian population after the war with Hamas is over."

11 government ministers... out of 37. That's not even half of the executive.
15 lawmakers ... out of 120. That's slightly over 10%.

The article is presenting a minority point of view.

Of those ministers, only 5 are from the Likud party which is in power. The executive position is listed further down in the article:

"lawmakers and ministers were allowed to speak their minds, but Israel’s policy on postwar Gaza was set by the full security cabinet, the body authorized to make such decisions, and that no decision to resettle Gaza had been made." His opposition to revived Jewish settlement in Gaza “has not changed,” he said.

 

[Balthazzar]

It can be. Forced relocation of ethnic groups is covered under the UN definition of ethnic cleansing, and can arguably be considered at the very least a component of their definition of genocide:

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

www.un.org

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

www.un.org

Personally, I wish there were much less admonishment and hand-wringing about the terms we use to describe these events, and much more simple acknowledgement of the moral weight of the events themselves.

Hamas became antagonists against Israeli citizens. The Palestinian people were not noted to be the issue. Hamas has been targeted for the attacks. Civilians have been urged throughout the effort due to safety concerns ... a red light green light yellow light type of maneuvering of the Palestinian people in an effort to help limit collateral damage (civilian losses). Hamas has been deemed a terrorist organization. When they became terrorists, they separated themselves from their Palestinian- civilian safety nets.

 

[dybmh]

UNRWA has not been granted permits by the Israeli authorities to deliver aid to northern Gaza for more than a month

The food is still waiting for the UN to distribute it. UNRWA, contrary to popular belief, is not the only agency distributing aid.

As far as I know, there are no "permits" granted for aid distribution in specific locations.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Hamas became antagonists against Israeli citizens. The Palestinian people were not noted to be the issue. Hamas has been targeted for the attacks. Civilians have been urged throughout the effort due to safety concerns ... a red light green light yellow light type of maneuvering of the Palestinian people in an effort to help limit collateral damage (civilian losses). Hamas has been deemed a terrorist organization. When they became terrorists, they separated themselves from their Palestinian- civilian safety nets.

That doesn't really acknowledge the tactics used by Israel during the attacks on Gaza, nor the sheer degree of civilian casualties, nor the explicit nature of the war crimes that have been committed. You cannot justify any action by claiming you were aiming your war crimes at terrorist organisations. You cannot justify the killing of civilians because you were aiming for the terrorists behind them. You cannot justify cutting off food, water and aid to millions of civilians because of a few thousand terrorists. You cannot justify talking of forced relocation, of assassinating journalists, of withholding aid, of settling land, of disproportionate violence by claiming it is all actually intended for those in Hamas.

Taking action against Hamas isn't the moral failing of the Israeli government and IDF. It's the actions they've decided to take that explicitly disproportionately harm civilians and seem intended to cause greater collateral damage and harm than necessary that is the moral failing of the Israeli government and the IDF. It is not enough to simply say "These actions may be bad, but I swear they were intended for the bad guys". Judge actions and choices by their effect and impact, not by their presupposed intent. It may all be well and good that the grenade that killed your entire family was meant only for your terrorist uncle, but that says nothing about the moral weight of the act of throwing a grenade into a family home.

 

[Regiomontanus]

I realise I am grabbing the 3rd rail with this thread, but I feel I cannot stay silent any longer. The attached news report makes truly shocking reading: Israel is deliberately starving Palestinians, UN rights expert says

Not only is the Israeli government and army denying food supplies to the people they have displaced. They have also destroyed fishing vessels, orchards, olive trees and greenhouses, for no good reason. Children are suffering extreme malnutrition, at a level that will stunt their growth and ruin their lives.

Most of Gaza has been reduced to rubble and almost the entire population of 2 million people, herded, like cattle, up against the Egyptian border in the South, at Rafah. And now the Israeli army is about to destroy Rafah, too. Just last night, a government spokesman said in a BBC radio interview Israel has a plan to move 1.4 million people from the Rafah area to locations he was not willing to disclose. He did not deny the suggestion that they may be transferred across the border to Sinai. Once there, if that is indeed the intended location, I am sure they will make it very difficult for any of them to come back.

This Israeli government seem to be embarked on a Final Solution. I do not use those words lightly. It is disgusting beyond words that Israel, of all nations on Earth, should be doing this. They should to be arraigned before the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

Yes.

Ethnic cleansing:

1. The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.

ethnic cleansing — definition, examples, related words and more at Wordnik

All the words

www.wordnik.com

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The food is still waiting for the UN to distribute it. UNRWA, contrary to popular belief, is not the only agency distributing aid.

See the recent WFP report.

 

[Balthazzar]

That doesn't really acknowledge the tactics used by Israel during the attacks on Gaza, nor the sheer degree of civilian casualties, nor the explicit nature of the war crimes that have been committed. You cannot justify any action by claiming you were aiming your war crimes at terrorist organisations. You cannot justify the killing of civilians because you were aiming for the terrorists behind them. You cannot justify cutting off food, water and aid to millions of civilians because of a few thousand terrorists. You cannot justify talking of forced relocation, of assassinating journalists, of withholding aid, of settling land, of disproportionate violence by claiming it is all actually intended for those in Hamas.

Taking action against Hamas isn't the moral failing of the Israeli government and IDF. It's the actions they've decided to take that explicitly disproportionately harm civilians and seem intended to cause greater collateral damage and harm than necessary that is the moral failing of the Israeli government and the IDF. It is not enough to simply say "These actions may be bad, but I swear they were intended for the bad guys". Judge actions and choices by their effect and impact, not by their presupposed intent. It may all be well and good that the grenade that killed your entire family was meant only for your terrorist uncle, but that says nothing about the moral weight of the act of throwing a grenade into a family home.

Hamas has been noted to control the strip. Civilian residents have been placed in compromising positions. Hamas have been accused of attacking Israeli citizens. Israel returned with a great use of force. The civilian shields, some of whom are captives of other nationalities, including Americans and Israeli's. The strategy is effective, but the actions of Hamas intolerable. What I understand about the situation is the urgency of leaving the strip as orchestrated, red, yellow, green areas, due to the potential collateral damage that would very likely be the result if not heeded. Apparently, the threat is great enough for Israel to take this type of action. As an outside onlooker at the events, all I can do is attempt to make sense of it, understand the reasons for the effort, and continue to stay tuned as new information unfolds. To date, I'll acknowledge it's ugly and tragic. Beyond this, there's not much I can change until I'm better informed.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Taking action against Hamas isn't the moral failing of the Israeli government and IDF. It's the actions they've decided to take that explicitly disproportionately harm civilians ...

Yes.

... and seem intended to cause greater collateral damage and harm than necessary that is the moral failing of the Israeli government and the IDF.

That's a serious and, in my opinion, irresponsible assertion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Apparently, the threat is great enough for Israel to take this type of action.

From my perspective, IDF actions seem less consistent with fear of a great threat and more consistent with extreme disregard for Palestinian civilians.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That's a serious and, in my opinion, irresponsible assertion.

It's literally a doctrine of the IDF.

Dahiya doctrine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

At this stage, I care significantly less about "irresponsible assertions" than I do about irresponsible use of violence. As far as I am aware, people being a little too trigger-happy with their language in this instance didn't kill tens of thousands of civilians.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's a serious and, in my opinion, irresponsible assertion.

It is a serious and accurate assertion.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's literally a doctrine of the IDF.

Dahiya doctrine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

At this stage, I care significantly less about "irresponsible assertions" than I do about irresponsible use of violence. As far as I am aware, people being a little too trigger-happy with their language didn't kill tens of thousands of civilians.

I agree. I also agree with the following:

Commentators for The Guardian, The Washington Post, and Mondoweiss have noted that the attacks of the Israeli Defense Forces on the civilian infrastructure of the Gaza Strip during the 2023 Hamas-Israel war may constitute an extension of the doctrine.[18][19] Haaretz reported that IDF had dropped "all restraint" in its war: killed civilians and destroyed civilian infrastructure at an unprecedented rate.[20] [ibid]

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I agree. I also agree with the following:

Right. And I think it is fair (and arguably even charitable) to describe such actions as "seem(ing) intended to cause greater collateral damage and harm than necessary".