Islamic concept of Mahdi/Jesus/Messiah

[InvestigateTruth]

If one has not read Quran as I asked one to confirm then one's comments to refer Quran are of no use for me, please.

Regards

I believe I know Quran better than the current Muslims or their scholars. I am not saying I know everything in Quran or I know it perfectly. I don't think anyone knows Quran perfectly other than God and those who are well-grounded in knowlede who recieved its knowledge from God.

Memorizing the whole Quran from cover to cover does not mean one has good knowledge of Quran. It only means one has memorized traces of letters in his head, like a computer. Can a computer claim it understands Quran? Anyways, i am interested not to go far from the topic of the thread.

 

[paarsurrey]

I believe I know Quran better than the current Muslims or their scholars. I am not saying I know everything in Quran or I know it perfectly. I don't think anyone knows Quran perfectly other than God and those who are well-grounded in knowlede who recieved its knowledge from God.

Memorizing the whole Quran from cover to cover does not mean one has good knowledge of Quran. It only means one has memorized traces of letters in his head, like a computer. Can a computer claim it understands Quran? Anyways, i am interested not to go far from the topic of the thread.

Sorry, then if one quotes from Quran just copying from the Bahai sources not supported by the context verses, it carries no weight .
Should I understand to note that one has not read/studied Quran. I intend to give my attention to those Bahai friends who read the Quran and know its contents for a meaningful discussion. Right, please?

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sorry, then if one quotes from Quran just copying from the Bahai sources not supported by the context verses, it carries no weight .
Should I understand to note that one has not read/studied Quran. I intend to give my attention to those Bahai friends who read the Quran and know its contents for a meaningful discussion. Right, please?

Regards

I understand that you think the Bahai scriptures or how Bahais view those Quranic verses, are out of context. Believe me, I used to think they are out of context, but after spending a very long time researching Islamic sources and the Quran, and thinking about the verses, I realized the Bahai view is correct, and the Bahai interpretation is exactly what the context of the verses of Quran is about. Anyways, you are well come to discuss how you view those verses, which you think I quoted out of context.

 

[paarsurrey]

No matter how many times people restate what they think are the respective roles of the promised Mahdi and "Jesus" according to Islam (outside of the Quran) it is never clearly stated exactly WHY Jesus is involved with the Mahdi at all when the Mahdi presumably does everything like a single Messianic figure. It seems as though there was some kind of syncretic mixture of a Muslim concept with some kind of dutiful adherence to Jesus between the 4th century and the 8th century but without any actual clear delineation. ;-(

As I have stated several times here in these forums that Hadith- the Third source of Guidance of Muslims, is to be correctly interpreted/understood under the clear verses of Quran:

• Quran mentions that Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets*.
• God promised the believers that Caliphs/Successors** will come after him who will perform among others the following roles:
  • The Caliphs/Successors of Muhammad ( even if one of them has titles of Mahdi or Jesus in Islam) will establish the prayer of G-d as per Sunnah of Muhammad.
  • They will believe Oneness of G-d as did Muhammad do and clearly established in Quran.

Hence,there is no space for a Mahdi or Messiah or Jesus of a new religion in Islam, as Bahaullah seems to claim.

Regards
_____
*Quran[33:41]
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 33: Al-Ahzab

**Quran[24:56]
Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, and they will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.
[24:57]
And observe Prayer and give the Zakat and obey the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.

The Holy Quran - Chapter: 24: Al-Nur

 

[paarsurrey]

Kalki is a Hindu concept. I don't think it is very prudent nor very useful to conflate Hindu and Muslim conceptions of divinity. That would only create and maintain destructive confusion, IMO.

This is what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has claimed and I believe it to be true as per our understanding.
Hinduism people are free to continue believing as per their worldview, no harm in it.
Both views could co-exist simultaneously and peacefully. I don't have any confusion, others also should not have. Truthful religion creates no confusion, however, please.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As I have stated several times here in these forums that Hadith- the Third source of Guidance of Muslims, is to be correctly interpreted/understood under the clear verses of Quran:

• Quran mentions that Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets*.
• God promised the believers that Caliphs/Successors** will come after him who will perform among others the following roles:
  • The Caliphs/Successors of Muhammad ( even if one of them has titles of Mahdi or Jesus in Islam) will establish the prayer of G-d as per Sunnah of Muhammad.
  • They will believe Oneness of G-d as did Muhammad do and clearly established in Quran.

Hence,there is no space for a Mahdi or Messiah or Jesus of a new religion in Islam, as Bahaullah seems to claim.

Regards
_____
*Quran[33:41]
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 33: Al-Ahzab

**Quran[24:56]
Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, and they will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.
[24:57]
And observe Prayer and give the Zakat and obey the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.

The Holy Quran - Chapter: 24: Al-Nur

I would note that God also offered the Jews and the Christains the same promise. So why do you think the Jews still do not accept the Messages of Jesus and Muhammad. Why is it the Christains have not accepted Muhammad? Does the Quran offer advice on this?

What I see is, history has proven that there is always more to the promise than we can accept, as God continues to send His Messengers and we continue to reject them.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

I would note that God also offered the Jews and the Christains the same promise. So why do you think the Jews still do not accept the Messages of Jesus and Muhammad. Why is it the Christains have not accepted Muhammad? Does the Quran offer advice on this?

What I see is, history has proven that there is always more to the promise than we can accept, as God continues to send His Messengers and we continue to reject them.

Regards Tony

That one should discuss with Jews and Christians as they could best describe their views about their religion.
In revealed religion we discuss things from the Word of G-d .

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

As I have stated several times here in these forums that Hadith- the Third source of Guidance of Muslims, is to be correctly interpreted/understood under the clear verses of Quran:

• Quran mentions that Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets*.
• God promised the believers that Caliphs/Successors** will come after him who will perform among others the following roles:
  • The Caliphs/Successors of Muhammad ( even if one of them has titles of Mahdi or Jesus in Islam) will establish the prayer of G-d as per Sunnah of Muhammad.
  • They will believe Oneness of G-d as did Muhammad do and clearly established in Quran.

Hence,there is no space for a Mahdi or Messiah or Jesus of a new religion in Islam, as Bahaullah seems to claim.

Regards
_____
*Quran[33:41]
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 33: Al-Ahzab

**Quran[24:56]
Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good works that He will surely make them Successors in the earth, as He made Successors from among those who were before them; and that He will surely establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them; and that He will surely give them in exchange security and peace after their fear: They will worship Me, and they will not associate anything with Me. Then whoso is ungrateful after that, they will be the rebellious.
[24:57]
And observe Prayer and give the Zakat and obey the Messenger, that you may be shown mercy.

The Holy Quran - Chapter: 24: Al-Nur

You are right that according to Quran, Muhammad is Seal of Prophets, and after Muhammad, no One is supposed to come as a new messenger or prophet until the Day of Resurrection, but let's not also forget that, Allah in Quran promises to appear on earth, and Bahaullah fulfils this Promise.

I have already quoted the related verses, and you are welcome to discuss them.

 

[paarsurrey]

You are right that according to Quran, Muhammad is Seal of Prophets, and after Muhammad, no One is supposed to come as a new messenger or prophet until the Day of Resurrection, but let's not also forget that, Allah in Quran promises to appear on earth, and Bahaullah fulfils this Promise.

I have already quoted the related verses, and you are welcome to discuss them.

"Allah in Quran promises to appear on earth" Unquote.

Please quote the verse with the verses in the context and then prove one's viewpoint.

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"Allah in Quran promises to appear on earth" Unquote.

Please quote the verse with the verses in the context and then prove one's viewpoint.

Regards

Already did quote many of the verses in this thread. Yes?

 

[paarsurrey]

Already did quote many of the verses in this thread. Yes?

One did not give the verses in the context as requested.
One has not read Quran from cover to cover.

Regards

 

[danieldemol]

• • The Caliphs/Successors of Muhammad ( even if one of them has titles of Mahdi or Jesus in Islam) will establish the prayer of G-d as per Sunnah of Muhammad.

Actually the Quran does not state that one with the title of Jesus will establish prayer as per the Sunnah of Muhammad.

According to the Quran, Jesus was modifier of the law (or sunnah) of Moses.

In this regard one may read my uncontested post here
Did Quran's Jesus bring modification to the law of Moses?

Kind regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Actually the Quran does not state that one with the title of Jesus will establish prayer as per the Sunnah of Muhammad.

According to the Quran, Jesus was modifier of the law (or sunnah) of Moses.

In this regard one may read my uncontested post here
Did Quran's Jesus bring modification to the law of Moses?

Kind regards

"According to the Quran, Jesus was modifier of the law (or sunnah) of Moses." Unquote.

Please quote the verse of Quran, with the verses in the context that mentions Jesus as "modifier" of Law of Moses.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I believe I know Quran better than the current Muslims or their scholars. I am not saying I know everything in Quran or I know it perfectly. I don't think anyone knows Quran perfectly other than God and those who are well-grounded in knowlede who recieved its knowledge from God.

Memorizing the whole Quran from cover to cover does not mean one has good knowledge of Quran. It only means one has memorized traces of letters in his head, like a computer. Can a computer claim it understands Quran? Anyways, i am interested not to go far from the topic of the thread.

"I believe I know Quran better than the current Muslims or their scholars."

May be one's claim is right. But the claim is not reasonable if one has not read the whole Quran. I don't say to memorize Quran by heart is essential. With comparison we can now things better.

Regards

 

[danieldemol]

"According to the Quran, Jesus was modifier of the law (or sunnah) of Moses." Unquote.

Please quote the verse of Quran, with the verses in the context that mentions Jesus as "modifier" of Law of Moses.

Regards

In the holy Quran it is stated concerning Jesus;

"(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me, and to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you..."
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 3:50)

One simply cannot make lawful something which was forbidden without modifiying the law, anyone who says otherwise has ignored the plain meaning of the text inasmuch as it does not confirm their superstitions.

Kind regards

 

[paarsurrey]

In the holy Quran it is stated concerning Jesus;

"(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me, and to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you..."
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 3:50)

One simply cannot make lawful something which was forbidden without modifiying the law, anyone who says otherwise has ignored the plain meaning of the text inasmuch as it does not confirm their superstitions.

Kind regards

"Surah 3:50" Unquote.

• Now, please quote verses in the context, some preceding and some following for correct understanding.
• Did Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri quote this verse of Quran in connection with the "modification/s" please?

If yes, please quote the reference from Aqdas and the link, please.
Thanks and regards

 

[danieldemol]

Adding extra words won’t change its meaning, nor will they tell me how you misinterpret it.

In this case it is not even necessary to quote Baha’u’llah as the meaning of the text is accepted even by the mainstream Muslims, as you will note from Sakeenah’s exposition in my above link from post 132

 

[paarsurrey]

Hello, Mahdi, or the Qaim is mentioned in Quran as someone who will be sent to people with the Book of God. As someone who will bring light of God to the earth, and revive the spiritually dead people. He will establish the pure Religion again on earth.... Similarly Christ rises after the Qaim to rule with justice...

"Qaim is mentioned in Quran" Unquote.

Qaim is not mentioned in Quran. Please don't misrepresent Quran.
If yes, please quote from Quran with the verses in the context for correct understanding, please.
Any Bahai or Non-Bahai, please

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

And the Quranic evidence that Qaim comes with a Book of God is in Surrah Al-Isra, verse 71:

“On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam; and he whose Book is given in his right hand shall read it, nor shall they be wronged a straw.” 17:71


And in Al-kafi, ‘Abdallah ibn Sinan narrated, "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of , ‘On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam . . ." (17:71) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It refers to the Imam who is with them and he is Qa’im of the people of that time."


In Al-kafi it is narrated that Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) said: “... they will disagree in the Book that will be with the Qaim, who will bring it to them, so much so that a large number of people will deny him.”

"And the Quranic evidence that Qaim comes with a Book of God is in Surrah Al-Isra, verse 71:
“On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam; and he whose Book is given in his right hand shall read it, nor shall they be wronged a straw.” 17:71" Unquote.

The word "Qaim" is not even mentioned in the verse of Quran. Please don't misrepresent Quran .

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"And the Quranic evidence that Qaim comes with a Book of God is in Surrah Al-Isra, verse 71:
“On the Day when We will summon all men by their Imam; and he whose Book is given in his right hand shall read it, nor shall they be wronged a straw.” 17:71" Unquote.

The word "Qaim" is not even mentioned in the verse of Quran. Please don't misrepresent Quran .

Regards

Yes, the word Qaim is in the Quran, in the form of disconnected letters, which appears in a verse of a Surrah:

حم (1) عسق (2) كَذَٰلِكَ يُوحِي إِلَيْكَ وَإِلَى الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكَ اللَّهُ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ


From hadithes of Imams Sadiq and imam reza, we know that حم عسق، in this verse is a short form, of the name of Qaim, and the year He appears.

حم (H M) is Muhammad
عسق (A S Q): A is Ali, S is sixty, Q is Qaim.

The whole verse

حم عسق means: Qaim of year sixty, is Ali Muhammad.

ق = قائم
س = ستین
ع م ح= علی محمد