Isaiah says God will kill Jesus?

[PruePhillip]

As I said before, if you want to know what the Tanakh means, ask a Jewish friend.

It's kind of like this 'cultural appropriation' woke stuff. You can't speak for 'indigenous' unless you are
'indigenous' and you can't speak for 'trans persons' unless you are 'trans' yourself. I don't buy it. My
teacher in literature used to say, 'listen to the text' in any discussion. And that's what I do with the bible.

We had a Sabbath meal one Friday night and a Jew asked for a chapter from Isaiah for him to read.
I asked for 53. After some fumbling he said he didn't have that chapter in his Tanakh (I am part Jew
as well.) I took that as being dishonest.

 

[blü 2]

It's kind of like this 'cultural appropriation' woke stuff.

Certainly trying to wish Christianity onto the Tanakh is Attempted Cultural Appropriation.

 

[Follower7]

This is the literal translation of Isaiah the prophet by Hebrew Scholars from the ancient Hebrew into English.

Oh, you meant,
Isaiah 53:10-12

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

Main point:
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

I do not see the word "Crush" here. Hum.... What God is saying is that He is pleased about that whole Salvation thing that His Son did for us, being scourged, beaten, beard plucked out, whipped, mocked, crown of thorns smashed down on His head, forced to carry His cross on His back with the ribs on His back showing through due to the scourging & nailed to a cross on Golgotha, (Aramaic: “Skull”) also called Calvary, (from Latin calva: “bald head” or “skull”), skull-shaped hill in ancient Jerusalem, the site of Jesus’ crucifixion. It is referred to in all four Gospels (Matthew 27:33, Mark 15:22, Luke 23:33, and John 19:17).

"As terrible as much of the Bible is," Of which Bible do you speak? Since it is the word of God, you are by default calling God terrible. Where is your Biblical perspective derived from? Do you consider yourself Biblically Literate?
"So, the Father crushed him? Killed his only son? WRONG!!!! We killed Him; each & every one of us killed Him, as He had to die for "OUR SINS TO BE FORGIVEN". You do not appear to understand the spiritual language being expressed by God through Isaiah. Jesus said, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life". It seems to be a prophecy of the crucifixion? Seems to be???? "Well, I guess he's welcome to crush and kill me too". Those who are reborn in the Spirit die to self & live for Jesus, He took our punishment so we wouldn't have to, but you want to get crushed & crucified???? I hope I get some of the same rewards, just a little!" I will pray for you. Where are you learning this stuff? On your own? The church of kinda gibberish??? I say this out of concern. One should never take scripture for granted, change it, twist it, joke about it, lie about it, corrupt it, or in anyway intentionally defame the word of God, or His Son. My apologies if I have misunderstood your intent.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This is the literal translation of Isaiah the prophet by Hebrew Scholars from the ancient Hebrew into English.

Oh, you meant,
Isaiah 53:10-12

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

Main point:
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

I do not see the word "Crush" here. Hum.... What God is saying is that He is pleased about that whole Salvation thing that His Son did for us, being scourged, beaten, beard plucked out, whipped, mocked, crown of thorns smashed down on His head, forced to carry His cross on His back with the ribs on His back showing through due to the scourging & nailed to a cross on Golgotha, (Aramaic: “Skull”) also called Calvary, (from Latin calva: “bald head” or “skull”), skull-shaped hill in ancient Jerusalem, the site of Jesus’ crucifixion. It is referred to in all four Gospels (Matthew 27:33, Mark 15:22, Luke 23:33, and John 19:17).

"As terrible as much of the Bible is," Of which Bible do you speak? Since it is the word of God, you are by default calling God terrible. Where is your Biblical perspective derived from? Do you consider yourself Biblically Literate?
"So, the Father crushed him? Killed his only son? WRONG!!!! We killed Him; each & every one of us killed Him, as He had to die for "OUR SINS TO BE FORGIVEN". You do not appear to understand the spiritual language being expressed by God through Isaiah. Jesus said, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life". It seems to be a prophecy of the crucifixion? Seems to be???? "Well, I guess he's welcome to crush and kill me too". Those who are reborn in the Spirit die to self & live for Jesus, He took our punishment so we wouldn't have to, but you want to get crushed & crucified???? I hope I get some of the same rewards, just a little!" I will pray for you. Where are you learning this stuff? On your own? The church of kinda gibberish??? I say this out of concern. One should never take scripture for granted, change it, twist it, joke about it, lie about it, corrupt it, or in anyway intentionally defame the word of God, or His Son. My apologies if I have misunderstood your intent.

The servant in the book of Isaiah is declared to be Israel. Thus Isaiah 53 is not about the messiah, but about Israel.

 

[Mark La Buda]

According to Christian interpretation, the book of Isaiah makes it clear God was pleased with the Christ wearing a crown of thorns and nailed to a cross, no?

Isaiah 53:10

But it was the LORD’s good plan to crush him and cause him grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have many descendants. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD’s good plan will prosper in his hands.

I opened right up to that verse in my sacred book today.

So, the Father crushed him? Killed his only son? It seems to be a prophecy of the crucifixion? Well, I guess he's welcome to crush and kill me too. I hope I get some of the same rewards, just a little!

To understand this part of the prophecy, we should remember that in challenging Almighty God’s sovereignty, Satan cast doubt on the loyalty of all of God’s servants in heaven and on earth. (Job 1:9-11; 2:3-5) Jesus, by remaining faithful to death, provided the perfect answer to Satan’s challenge. Clearly, God did not personally inflict this suffering, He, however, permitted Jesus to be killed by his enemies. There should be no doubt that God suffered when he saw his Son being put to death. However, observing his Son’s absolute faithfulness gave God much delight knowing the benefits that his death would accomplish: bringing many to repentance.-Proverbs 27:11; Luke 15:7.

 

[Ebionite]

So, the Father crushed him?

To crush can mean to make contrite.

Strong's Hebrew: 1792. דָּכָא (daka) -- to crush

Isaiah 53 isn't consistent with the Christian account of the crucifixion:

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isaiah 53:8

 

[Ebionite]

The servant in the book of Isaiah is declared to be Israel. Thus Isaiah 53 is not about the messiah, but about Israel.

Declarations are, in general, not necessarily true.

 

[Ebionite]

That can't be Jesus. One reason is that Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh. Another is that Jesus, according to all the stories, sired no children ("seed").

It's not unusual for the prophets to refer to people without using their name. According to the Merovingian story, Jesus had children.

 

[blü 2]

It's not unusual for the prophets to refer to people without using their name. According to the Merovingian story, Jesus had children.

That's a handy rule. I know some tax advisers who (though the contexts are different) think along those lines.

 

[Ebionite]

That's a handy rule.

It can lead to doctrinal failure when the dots are connected.

 

[Ebionite]

I do not see the word "Crush" here.

In your text the word bruise is used instead.

What God is saying is that He is pleased about that whole Salvation thing that His Son did for us, being scourged, beaten

That's not consistent with verse 8.

Matthew 26​
31	Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Zechariah 13​
7	Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man (גבך) [that is] my fellow, saith YHWH of armies: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

The Hebrew word geber (גבך) means mighty, which is descriptive of fighting men, eg the Sicarri of the time of the gospels. The Sicarri were named after the short curved blade that they used for assassinations.

 

[blü 2]

It can lead to doctrinal failure when the dots are connected.

Knock knock,'
Who's there?
IRS.
Just give me a moment. Ahm can I borrow your cigarette lighter? Yeah, just slide it under the door.

 

[Ebionite]

Knock knock,'
Who's there?
IRS.
Just give me a moment. Ahm can I borrow your cigarette lighter? Yeah, just slide it under the door.

Forbidding the payment of tribute to Caesar (taxes) was central to the false accusations which were made against the Messiah. The penalty for this was crucifixion.

 

[blü 2]

Forbidding the payment of tribute to Caesar (taxes) was central to the false accusations which were made against the Messiah. The penalty for this was crucifixion.

Really? Where exactly? I missed that part ─ probably misled by the "Render unto Caesar" scene.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Declarations are, in general, not necessarily true.

Did you fail at reading comprehension? You have to use the context of the entire text to have a good understanding. Isaiah clearly states that the servant is Israel: Isaiah 41:8 "But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;"

 

[Ebionite]

Did you fail at reading comprehension? You have to use the context of the entire text to have a good understanding. Isaiah clearly states that the servant is Israel: Isaiah 41:8 "But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;"

That's a different chapter.

 

[Ebionite]

Really? Where exactly? I missed that part ─ probably misled by the "Render unto Caesar" scene.

Matthew 22​
15	Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in [his] talk.
16	And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any [man]: for thou regardest not the person of men.
17	Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18	But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, [ye] hypocrites?
19	Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20	And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription?
21	They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
22	When they had heard [these words], they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

Luke 23​
2	And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this [fellow] perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's a different chapter.

Its the same text. The metaphor for the servant runs throughout Isaiah.

 

[YoursTrue]

This is the literal translation of Isaiah the prophet by Hebrew Scholars from the ancient Hebrew into English.

Oh, you meant,
Isaiah 53:10-12

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

Main point:
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

I do not see the word "Crush" here. Hum.... What God is saying is that He is pleased about that whole Salvation thing that His Son did for us, being scourged, beaten, beard plucked out, whipped, mocked, crown of thorns smashed down on His head, forced to carry His cross on His back with the ribs on His back showing through due to the scourging & nailed to a cross on Golgotha, (Aramaic: “Skull”) also called Calvary, (from Latin calva: “bald head” or “skull”), skull-shaped hill in ancient Jerusalem, the site of Jesus’ crucifixion. It is referred to in all four Gospels (Matthew 27:33, Mark 15:22, Luke 23:33, and John 19:17).

"As terrible as much of the Bible is," Of which Bible do you speak? Since it is the word of God, you are by default calling God terrible. Where is your Biblical perspective derived from? Do you consider yourself Biblically Literate?
"So, the Father crushed him? Killed his only son? WRONG!!!! We killed Him; each & every one of us killed Him, as He had to die for "OUR SINS TO BE FORGIVEN". You do not appear to understand the spiritual language being expressed by God through Isaiah. Jesus said, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life". It seems to be a prophecy of the crucifixion? Seems to be???? "Well, I guess he's welcome to crush and kill me too". Those who are reborn in the Spirit die to self & live for Jesus, He took our punishment so we wouldn't have to, but you want to get crushed & crucified???? I hope I get some of the same rewards, just a little!" I will pray for you. Where are you learning this stuff? On your own? The church of kinda gibberish??? I say this out of concern. One should never take scripture for granted, change it, twist it, joke about it, lie about it, corrupt it, or in anyway intentionally defame the word of God, or His Son. My apologies if I have misunderstood your intent.

This is very interesting. Jehovah took delight in Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus was killed because of his love for the Father, and while of course to see His Son suffer caused Jehovah pain, He also was happy that Jesus loved Him so much that he willingly gave up his life for Him.

 

[Ebionite]

Its the same text. The metaphor for the servant runs throughout Isaiah.

No, it's not the same text, and there is more that one servant.

Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it [to] the right hand or [to] the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.
Joshua 1:7

And YHWH said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years [for] a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia;
Isaiah 20:3

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:
Isaiah 22:20