Isaiah says God will kill Jesus?

[Muffled]

No. You are basing this on an erroneous Christian misinterpretation of Isaiah 53.

I believe I can lol. People turn themselves into knots trying to see it another way than the way Christians see it.

 

[Muffled]

Certainly not the first time.

I believe you could try to name one person the suffering Israelites has saved from sin. I don't know of any but I do know of a lot of Christians saved from sin.

 

[Kenny]

I believe you could try to name one person the suffering Israelites has saved from sin. I don't know of any but I do know of a lot of Christians saved from sin.

Every time the high-priest laid hands on the goat, sacrificed the other goat, touched the mercy seat with blood, Israelites understood being saved from sin.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Would you say that humanity is entrapped in sin? I do know the high priest of Israel under the mosaic law was to offer sacrifices for the nation and for himself, wasn't he?

No, I don't think we are entrapped by sin. From the very beginning, God has offered to forgive those who repent.

 

[PruePhillip]

The bonobos and the chimps are our closest genetic relatives. The chimps invade the territory of other chimps and kill the males. The bonobos use sex for just about every social interaction and they don't kill anyone.
A strong contender for Most Revolting European War Ever is still the Thirty Years War, Catholic vs Protestant with ghastly savagery and deep hatred a feature on many occasions, both on the battlefield and against civilians.

I suggest the most revolting war were the two so-called 'world wars'
If we dispense with religion because of 'religious wars' (imagine, killing in God's name) then we ought
to at least call most modern wars 'secular wars.'

 

[blü 2]

I suggest the most revolting war were the two so-called 'world wars'

In WW2 the war between Nazi Germany and the Russians got very personal, with torture and mutilation of corpses as expression of raw hatred. A more recent smalerl-scale example was Serb (Orthodox) v Croat (RC) in the Balkan wars of independence on the breakup of Jugoslavia in the 1990s, with instances of massacres of civilians, mutilation of corpses, and the like. The Thirty Years War had a seemingly inexhaustible supply of such examples, and the death toll as a percentage of population was enormous.

If we dispense with religion because of 'religious wars' (imagine, killing in God's name) then we ought to at least call most modern wars 'secular wars.'

The point in the end is that religion is part of our tribalism. I assume it's easier to kill an unbeliever than a fellow-tribesman, but it's very usual for one side in a war to diminish the moral worth of their enemy, to make killing easier both to do and to justify.

 

[PruePhillip]

The point in the end is that religion is part of our tribalism. I assume it's easier to kill an unbeliever than a fellow-tribesman, but it's very usual for one side in a war to diminish the moral worth of their enemy, to make killing easier both to do and to justify.

Sure, but it's wilful disobedience to the scripture both side claim to be defending.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, I don't think we are entrapped by sin. From the very beginning, God has offered to forgive those who repent.

The thing is that the Jews were commanded to offer sacrifices for sin. (Think the Day of Atonement.) If the entire nation were not sinners, only certain ones would be involved or not involved.

 

[blü 2]

Sure, but it's wilful disobedience to the scripture both side claim to be defending.

Of course. We're humans and the tribe comes first. Religion is just a tool, one of the tribal glues.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The thing is that the Jews were commanded to offer sacrifices for sin. (Think the Day of Atonement.) If the entire nation were not sinners, only certain ones would be involved or not involved.

I don't see how this says anything about what I said. The sacrificial system, and the prayer system that replaced it, doesn't impact what I said about how God, from the very beginning, desired mercy and would forgive those who repented.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The thing is that the Jews were commanded to offer sacrifices for sin. (Think the Day of Atonement.) If the entire nation were not sinners, only certain ones would be involved or not involved.

Humanity has a dual nature -- we have an inclination to evil (yetzer hara) and an inclination to good (yetzer tov). I see no reason at all to say that we are somehow ensnared by sin.

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

 

[PruePhillip]

Of course. We're humans and the tribe comes first. Religion is just a tool, one of the tribal glues.

That's the secular explanation for Christianity.
It's also the motive of people who call themselves Christian but don't live by its tenants.
Doesn't change what Christianity is though.

 

[blü 2]

That's the secular explanation for Christianity.
It's also the motive of people who call themselves Christian but don't live by its tenants.
Doesn't change what Christianity is though.

Christianity is a body of ideas, just as gods are bodies of ideas.

But because religion is a tribal tool, depending on the occasion some of those ideas may seem more important at that time than others of those ideas.

For example, in WW2 the Christian God was on the side of the Germans and of the Allies and of many of the Russians. A different God was on the side of the Japanese, of course, but the Christian God was with the Americans and the British Pacific colonies.

And if you check the record, you'll note that the old saying is true ─ God likes and supports the big battalions.

 

[PruePhillip]

Christianity is a body of ideas, just as gods are bodies of ideas.

But because religion is a tribal tool, depending on the occasion some of those ideas may seem more important at that time than others of those ideas.

For example, in WW2 the Christian God was on the side of the Germans and of the Allies and of many of the Russians. A different God was on the side of the Japanese, of course, but the Christian God was with the Americans and the British Pacific colonies.

And if you check the record, you'll note that the old saying is true ─ God likes and supports the big battalions.

Yeah, as Stalin put it, 'How many divisions has the Pope?'
Christianity is a doctrine encapsulated fully in the New Testament. There are Catholic doctines, such as the transubstantiation,
the trinity, indulgences and the like. I don't find those in the NT and discard them as man's additions and theories, corrupting
the simplicity that is in Christ. And these things do lead to crusades, inquisitions, world empires etc. which actually serve to
prove my point they have nothing do with Christianity, other than using its name.

 

[blü 2]

Yeah, as Stalin put it, 'How many divisions has the Pope?'
Christianity is a doctrine encapsulated fully in the New Testament. There are Catholic doctines, such as the transubstantiation, the trinity, indulgences and the like. I don't find those in the NT and discard them as man's additions and theories, corrupting the simplicity that is in Christ. And these things do lead to crusades, inquisitions, world empires etc. which actually serve to prove my point they have nothing do with Christianity, other than using its name.

You say Christianity is the point, I say Christianity is one of our social tools.

It wouldn't be a world religion except for Constantine's mother bringing it into the politics of the Roman Empire, for instance, but somet other religion or religions would be.

And as you know, since WW2 its tide has been ebbing in the First World, with quite visible result this century in its old stronghold the USA. I think that's the result of two social phenomena, the dilution of the influence of old authority centers and persons (politicians, the press, experts, religion) in society with the coming of the cell phone &c diminishing the need to congregate socially, and better education. Of course it's never that simple, but the trend is clear.

 

[PruePhillip]

You say Christianity is the point, I say Christianity is one of our social tools.

It wouldn't be a world religion except for Constantine's mother bringing it into the politics of the Roman Empire, for instance, but somet other religion or religions would be.

And as you know, since WW2 its tide has been ebbing in the First World, with quite visible result this century in its old stronghold the USA. I think that's the result of two social phenomena, the dilution of the influence of old authority centers and persons (politicians, the press, experts, religion) in society with the coming of the cell phone &c diminishing the need to congregate socially, and better education. Of course it's never that simple, but the trend is clear.

SOME treat Christianity as a 'social tool'
Christianity was going to be a world religion from the time of Jacob or earlier. He spoke of the Messiah
ending the Jewish state and being obeyed by the nations.
Isaiah said the nations would be shocked by the image of Jesus, crucified.
Jesus said the Gentiles would believe until their end would come (and Jews take Jerusalem back)

 

[IndigoChild5559]

SOME treat Christianity as a 'social tool'
Christianity was going to be a world religion from the time of Jacob or earlier. He spoke of the Messiah
ending the Jewish state and being obeyed by the nations.
Isaiah said the nations would be shocked by the image of Jesus, crucified.
Jesus said the Gentiles would believe until their end would come (and Jews take Jerusalem back)

Sorry, but Christianity didn't exist in the time of Jacob.

 

[blü 2]

SOME treat Christianity as a 'social tool'
Christianity was going to be a world religion from the time of Jacob or earlier. He spoke of the Messiah
ending the Jewish state and being obeyed by the nations.

World Domination with Christianity as your social tool! And no mention of the abolition of slavery! Well, if that's your kind of vision, enjoy, but might I suggest you don't hold your breath.

Isaiah said the nations would be shocked by the image of Jesus, crucified.

I myself find it creepy and disturbing, something children shouldn't be taught as normal. I may have mentioned walking around a church while waiting to meet someone, and it being before Easter, there were hung on the walls 'the stations of the cross', the joys of sado-masochism proudly displayed. That's not any kind of normality I aspire to.

Jesus said the Gentiles would believe until their end would come (and Jews take Jerusalem back)

Couldn't have had me in mind, then. I'm tipping humanity to outlive the cults of Jesus, though not immediately.

 

[PruePhillip]

World Domination with Christianity as your social tool! And no mention of the abolition of slavery! Well, if that's your kind of vision, enjoy, but might I suggest you don't hold your breath.
I myself find it creepy and disturbing, something children shouldn't be taught as normal. I may have mentioned walking around a church while waiting to meet someone, and it being before Easter, there were hung on the walls 'the stations of the cross', the joys of sado-masochism proudly displayed. That's not any kind of normality I aspire to.
Couldn't have had me in mind, then. I'm tipping humanity to outlive the cults of Jesus, though not immediately.

Imagine a day comes when it is illegal to ride an animal. You know, animals have 'rights' and 'dignity' and just as spurs,
whips and hurdles became illegal with horses, even riding becomes illegal. Could happen. Weirder things are happening.
And then people will say, 'HOW CAN JESUS BE A GOOD MAN WHEN HE RODE UPON A DONKEY?'
The bible has nothing to say about riding donkeys, other than it happened. And the bible says nothing about empires,
though they were everywhere. And the bible says nothing about the prerogatives of kings over democracy, though thats
what happened. And the bible had nothing to say about a raft of issues that people with world thinking, temporal minds
think is important. Jesus came for the sins of mankind - offering himself as the lamb slain. It's all symbolic, particularly the
cross.
So yeah, not much about slavery.

 

[PruePhillip]

Sorry, but Christianity didn't exist in the time of Jacob.

What do you think Jacob would have called that coming age? His kids could have asked him to clarify what
he said to Judah about there being a Hebrew nation with Judaen kings, and ending when "he to whom all
things belongs" arrives.
Various figures spoke of the ending of the covenant of Moses and the beginning of a new one. And they
spoke often of it being accepted of the Gentiles - and of course, the end of the Jewish nation. They all
'pre-figured' the coming Messiah and a new covenant, 'written in their hearts' though love of this man.