Isaiah 24:21 ???

[Tumah]

No Adam did not have a free will when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Who caused the fall? God or little Adam?

This is neither here nor there, but are you aware that your name means either "moderate" or Ben Oni, Benjamin given name which means "son of my pain"?

Why do you think Adam didn't have free will when he ate from the tree?

 

[Benoni]

This is neither here nor there, but are you aware that your name means either "moderate" or Ben Oni, Benjamin given name which means "son of my pain"?

Why do you think Adam didn't have free will when he ate from the tree?

Great observation:

That is right, or son of my sorrow. But his father renamed him Benjamin or son of my right hand. I see this as a spiritual prophecy of the end of the church age

Benjamin is a type of the overcomer in the ages to come, Rachel a type of the chosen bride which is the Church realm died in child birth so she name this son Benoni, son of my sorrow. But that would not become his real name he was called Benjamin the son of my right hand. Same son different perspective.

In answer to your other question; First of all something as great as the fall all born to Adam had to be God’s will but nothing is mention in Genesis on this subject so everyone assumes it was Adams choice.

But the bible does address this very important issue in other places. Most try to spin these verses because they refuse to believe different than what they were taught; here they are:

 

[Benoni]

Tumah

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

“Adam’s had no choice, Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse”. Little earthy Adam can choose something that effected all of humanity and God had no say in the matter.

Adam had to fall; he could choose nothing over God’s Sovereign and complete will; no freewill there just doing what He was ordained to do.

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
Another version:

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

 

[Tumah]

Great observation:

That is right, or son of my sorrow. But his father renamed him Benjamin or son of my right hand. I see this as a spiritual prophecy of the end of the church age

Benjamin is a type of the overcomer in the ages to come, Rachel a type of the chosen bride which is the Church realm died in child birth so she name this son Benoni, son of my sorrow. But that would not become his real name he was called Benjamin the son of my right hand. Same son different perspective.

I don't get the Christian iconography here. But I will contrast that with the view that it was Benjamin himself who caused his mother to die. The devouring wolf.

In answer to your other question; First of all something as great as the fall all born to Adam had to be God’s will but nothing is mention in Genesis on this subject so everyone assumes it was Adams choice.

But the bible does address this very important issue in other places. Most try to spin these verses because they refuse to believe different than what they were taught; here they are:

Interesting perspective. AS another perspective I would say an answer that is similar to the one given about the question why Pharaoh was punished if it was G-d that hardened his heart. The Midrash teaches that G-d had already planned to for Israel to suffer before their nationhood back by Abraham. However, Pharaoh chose to be the one to pain His nation. That is a bad choice to make. G-d has many messengers to carry out His wishes. It is always a bad choice to be the one to carry out G-d's Divine retribution on the people He loves. Better to let Him figure it out Himself.

Similarly, G-d wanted there to be an existence as we have it today. However, that is G-d's problem. He is capable of causing this existence even without Adam's sin. So therefore by being the cause of it, that is the bad choice, the sin.

 

[Benoni]

I don't get the Christian iconography here. But I will contrast that with the view that it was Benjamin himself who caused his mother to die. The devouring wolf.



Interesting perspective. AS another perspective I would say an answer that is similar to the one given about the question why Pharaoh was punished if it was G-d that hardened his heart. The Midrash teaches that G-d had already planned to for Israel to suffer before their nationhood back by Abraham. However, Pharaoh chose to be the one to pain His nation. That is a bad choice to make. G-d has many messengers to carry out His wishes. It is always a bad choice to be the one to carry out G-d's Divine retribution on the people He loves. Better to let Him figure it out Himself.

Similarly, G-d wanted there to be an existence as we have it today. However, that is G-d's problem. He is capable of causing this existence even without Adam's sin. So therefore by being the cause of it, that is the bad choice, the sin.

I cannot deal with half of God's Word and get to deep

 

[Pegg]

1. A person's actions is not always the cause of God's favor or disfavor. It can also be the effect. That is evident from Rom 9:15-16:

Rom 9:15-16​

Egypt is not the topic of discussion in this passage of scripture. Pharoah is used briefly as an example, but Paul is discussing the rejection of 'fleshly' Israel!
He explains that Israel were depending on their relationship to Abraham. (Ro 9:6, 7, 30-32) They assumed they were the chosen ones and sought to establish their righteousness through their own works....but not all subjected themselves to the righteousness of God. (Ro 10:1-3)
Therefore, Paul says “it depends, not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy.”

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Egypt or Pharoah or hardening hearts.

2. The scriptures tell a different story, Pegg:

Rom 9:18-19 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and He chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
​

The fact is that Jehovah foreknew that Pharaoh would refuse permission for the Israelites to leave, see Ex 3:19,*20
He knew the sort of person Pharoah was and knew he wouldnt comply.

There are some translations which render the Hebrew account to read that Jehovah “let [Pharaoh’s] heart wax bold” (Ro); “let [Pharaoh’s] heart become obstinate.” (NW)
In the appendix to Rotherham’s translation it makes the point that in Hebrew the occasion or permission of an event is often presented as if it were the cause of the event. An example of this is found at Exodus 1:17 the original Hebrew text literally says that the midwives “caused the male children to live,” .

Did the midwives really 'cause' the children to live??? No of course not. The account shows that they were instructed to kill the children, but they let them live instead.....the hebrew language says they 'caused' them to live. And its the same with the account about Pharoah...God 'caused' his heart to become obstinate which means that God 'let' that happen.

Rotherham states that the Hebrew sense of the texts involving Pharaoh is that “God permitted Pharaoh to harden his own heart—spared him—gave him the opportunity, the occasion, of working out the wickedness that was in him. That is all.”—The Emphasised Bible, appendix, p. 919; compare Isa 10:5-7.

19 Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what He makes them do?"​

Paul then indignantly responds:

Rom 9:20 It cannot be any clearer, Pegg. God sometimes "makes" people do bad things.​

Nothing in this passage says that God makes people do bad things. I think you've added that in yourself.
Pauls point is that we are like clay in the hands of God (the great potter). He can put us where he wants and set us in the way he wants. But we determine our own destiny by the course of action we take. And God, can and does, for his own wise, just and loving reasons, choose the time, manner and circumstances for rewarding the righteous and punishing the wicked.
This point is made at Jeremiah 18:6-8: “Look! As the clay in the hand of the potter, so you are in my hand, O house of Israel. At any moment that I may speak against a nation and against a kingdom to uproot it and to pull it down and to destroy it, and that nation actually turns back from its badness against which I spoke, I will also feel regret over the calamity that I had thought to execute upon it.”

Notice that IF a nation 'TURNS BACK' (repents), God will feel regret over the calamity he purposed to bring.... he changes his mind because of their change of heart.
This happened with Ninevah in the account of Jonah. God sent Jonah to condemn them and pronounce Gods judgement, they all repented and God held back punishment because of their change of heart.

We determine our own destiny.... God will show mercy if he chooses to do so and who are we to question him. Jonah was very angry that God chose not to destroy Ninevah.... but as Paul says, who are we to question him?

And just to reiterate what Romans 9 is talking about...its talking about how God cast fleshly Israel off! Who are we to question him?

4. You misunderstand. Not every sinful action by God's people is orchestrated by God. His chosen will mostly have a choice to do good or evil when tested. If obedient, they will be blessed. If disobedient, will suffer punishment. But my point is there are times where God may, for His own sovereign reasons, also suspend His people's free will:

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants' sake, The tribes of Your inheritance.​

what did God himself tell Isreal?

Deut 30: 15*“See, I do put before you today life and good, and death and bad. 16*[If you will listen to the commandments of Jehovah your God,] which I am commanding you today...17*“But if your heart turns away and you do not listen, and you are actually seduced and bow down to other gods and serve them, 18*I do tell YOU today that YOU will positively perish. ... I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring,

Jehovah wants us to 'choose' life. But if our hearts turn away and we 'do not listen' then we will suffer the consequences.

Now think about this idea you are presenting, that it is God who decides if we will listen or not... why would he tell us to listen and choose life he it is him who decides if we listen or not?

In this instance, God made His people stray from His ways and hardened their hearts. These two verbs are in the Hiphil stem which implies a causative effect from the subject (Jehovah). In other words, Jehovah--not the people--is the cause of the hardening and straying! I suspect He did so in order to later exhibit His compassion and mercy and perhaps to instill in them the lesson of absence (of God's presence) makes the heart grow fonder. In contrast, He caused unbelieving Pharaoh's defiance for the purpose of showing His power and wrath to His people and the world. This is consistent with Rom 9:22-23:

Rom 9:22-23 In the same way, even though God has the right to show His anger and His power, He is very patient with those on whom His anger falls, who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of His glory shine even brighter on those to whom He shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.​

sorry, but this idea is not consistent with Romans.

Romans is about God rejecting fleshly Israel and grafting in a new nation, the gentiles, onto faithful spiritual jews.

I'll just finish with Nehemiah
16*“And they themselves, even our forefathers, acted presumptuously and proceeded to harden their neck, and they did not listen to your commandments. 17*So they refused to listen, ... and you did not leave them. 18*Yes, when they had made for themselves a molten statue of a calf and began to say, ‘This is your God who led you up out of Egypt,’...21*And for forty years you provided them with food in the wilderness. They lacked nothing. ...
26*“However, they became disobedient and rebelled against you and kept casting your law behind their back, and your own prophets they killed, who bore witness against them to bring them back to you; and they went on committing acts of great disrespect. 27*For this you gave them into the hand of their adversaries, who kept causing them distress; but in the time of their distress they would cry out to you, and you yourself would hear from the very heavens; and in accord with your abundant mercy you would give them saviors who would save them out of the hand of their adversaries.
​

 

[Pegg]

No Adam did not have a free will when he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Who caused the fall? God or little Adam?

God told him not to eat from it.

Adam ate from it.

Seems fairly straight forward to me.

 

[Tumah]

I cannot deal with half of God's Word and get to deep

I don't understand what you are saying.

 

[Benoni]

God told him not to eat from it.

Adam ate from it.

Seems fairly straight forward to me.

This is true seeing you refuse to look at all of God's Word, This opinion is all based on what you assume not what is written.

Notice:

You are God. You turn man to destruction
But that was not the result of its own choice
O LORD, why hast thou made us to err


Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

ISA 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

 

[Pegg]

This is true seeing you refuse to look at all of God's Word, This opinion is all based on what you assume not what is written.

Notice:

You are God. You turn man to destruction
But that was not the result of its own choice
O LORD, why hast thou made us to err


Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

ISA 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

We have to understand the hebrew a little.
In Hebrew the 'permission' of an event is often presented as if it were the 'cause' of the event and that is what you need to understand about the verses above.

For example, If i put my boat in the river and a current beings to flow....what happens if I dont hold onto the boat? It floats away. Did I make the boat float away? No. But in the hebrew language, it might be written that I made the boat to float away even though it was not my intention for my boat to float away.

God expects us to choose to do the right thing...he doesnt make us do the wrong thing.

 

[Benoni]

We have to understand the hebrew a little.
In Hebrew the 'permission' of an event is often presented as if it were the 'cause' of the event and that is what you need to understand about the verses above.

For example, If i put my boat in the river and a current beings to flow....what happens if I dont hold onto the boat? It floats away. Did I make the boat float away? No. But in the hebrew language, it might be written that I made the boat to float away even though it was not my intention for my boat to float away.

God expects us to choose to do the right thing...he doesnt make us do the wrong thing.

Did you refute one word, of one of three verses?
Did you quote a verse that countered these three verses?
Did you show anyone a cultural or language error?
I give you three verses which totally refute your belief and you spin it with this HOGWASH.
When scripture is presented to me that refutes my belief as much as these three verses I would do something a JW would never do. Admit I am DEAD wrong.
You should get a trophy for the most amazing post I have ever seen for spinning the truth.

 

[Pegg]

Did you refute one word, of one of three verses?
Did you quote a verse that countered these three verses?
Did you show anyone a cultural or language error?
I give you three verses which totally refute your belief and you spin it with this HOGWASH.
When scripture is presented to me that refutes my belief as much as these three verses I would do something a JW would never do. Admit I am DEAD wrong.
You should get a trophy for the most amazing post I have ever seen for spinning the truth.

and if you dont try to understand a little of the hebrew language, you'll never understand the bible.

But thats your choice.

 

[Benoni]

and if you dont try to understand a little of the hebrew language, you'll never understand the bible.

But thats your choice.

What Hebrew language???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[CMike]

What Hebrew language???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

There is more than one?

 

[CMike]

Originally Posted by Benoni
I cannot deal with half of God's Word and get to deep

I don't understand what you are saying.

I kind of hurts the brain sometimes trying to figure out what they are talking about. :help:

 

[Benoni]

There is more than one?

Peggs post that she claimed was Hebrew because she did not like the verses I posted when against her JW beliefs

 

[CMike]

This is neither here nor there, but are you aware that your name means either "moderate" or Ben Oni, Benjamin given name which means "son of my pain"?

Why do you think Adam didn't have free will when he ate from the tree?

Tumah I think you have been making excellent posts.

 

[CMike]

the account in the hebrew scriptures about the angels deliberating over what they could do to bring Ahab to a particular place speaks otherwise.

Those angels had the ability to make their own determination.

To claim they have no free-will contradicts the Hebrew scriptures.

Not my hebrew scriptures.

Angels all have specific tasks which they must do. They have no free will.

One angel had the mission had to be the prosecutor, the other angel had the mission of being the defense.

 

[Pegg]

Peggs post that she claimed was Hebrew because she did not like the verses I posted when against her JW beliefs

you dont seem to be understanding the meaning of the hebrew language...that is the language the bible was written in.

But im not here to argue with you, only trying to help.

 

[Benoni]

you dont seem to be understanding the meaning of the hebrew language...that is the language the bible was written in.

But im not here to argue with you, only trying to help.

Sure you are here to debate or argue, you would not be here if this was not the case.

How can you help someone if you are tring to feed them HOGWASH?

First of all the information you gave me had nothing to do with the text I posted

Second point one of the verses was written in Greek

Third point you have been trying to dismiss these text for weeks and all of a sudden you are an expert in the Hebrew language

forth point, if someone revealed three scriptures that totally refuted what I believed, and I had nothing but an assumption for my reason for that belief; I would change my mind instead of trying to defend something you cannot defend

This is soooooo typical of the JW religion because all you can see is information in your JW box; trying looking outside the JW box